Author Topic: Will nationalized health care pass into law? (Read 1141 times)

Questor · « **on:** July 16, 2009, 03:33:07 AM »

Do you think they'll pass it?

Federal government now is so out of control that I believe it will.

I hope I'm wrong.

Between this, the massive deficit spending, and the business killer "cap and trade" tax, we'll be hurting our ability to prosper.

magooch · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2009, 03:43:51 AM »

No, the Dumbycrat Congress will use restraint and common sense and will refrain from yet another rushed piece of legislation like the stimulus bill that George Bush made them push through without time for proper reflection.

Now if you'll buy that, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona....

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2009, 03:58:53 AM »

Magooch:

I've got to stop reading responses to this thread. I just want to cry.

magooch · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2009, 05:44:35 AM »

You'd better buck up buddy, we're barely into this mess. If you're already on the verge of tears--just wait a couple of months.

Sourdough · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:16:12 AM »

I sincerely hope not. Look at the current government health care programs, the military and VA.

With the military they know they can not care for everyone, they don't have enough doctors. So they send people off base to civilian doctors under a system called Tricare. After years of late payments, underpaying, or refusing to pay, the off base doctors are refusing to see Tricare patients.

As for the VA, the doctors have trouble speaking english, or they have been kicked out of civilian practice for one reason or another, and the VA is so desperate they will take anyone they can get. If a Doctor screws up, it is covered up, swept under the carpet, and the doctor is transfered to another clinic to start all over again. It takes three to four months to get an appointment. If something else comes up good luck getting in to see someone else downtown. If you do they want payment up front before they will see you, they will not see you as a VA patient with VA to pay the bill. If I need to go to a hospital, the VA wants to send me to Seattle, 2500 miles, and a five hour airplane ride away. Passing two higher quality hospitals in Anchorage on the way. Better hope it is not for Emergency Surgery!

When the Cardiologist put me on Lipator after my by-pass, it worked great. My cholesterol came down and I had no side affects. The VA doctors decided to change me to a generic brand, Lipator cost too much. These generic drugs had some serious side affects. Leg cramps, muscle weakness, sore achy muscles, and lack of coordination. The VA doctors will not write a prescription for a local pharmacy, and let me pay for the drug myself. They require me to use the VA pharmacy in Anchorage, 400 miles away, and I get my drugs through the mail. When I am getting low I have to order them two weeks in advance, and hope they get here in time. Often they send the wrong ones too.

Enough of my rant, I could go on all day about the VA. But I am sure you have seen the news stories about the deploriable conditions of the VA hospitals, and care. Does everyone in the US want the same kind of care?

Heather · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:16:47 AM »

dukkillr · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:34:20 AM »

Quote from: Heather on July 16, 2009, 07:16:47 AM

YES

I agree. During the Clinton Administration the hospitals, doctors and drug companies killed Hillarycare and life was good. But even back then average people understood the healthcare in America had serious issues that were not being dealt with. Since then those same groups have spent more than a decade doing NOTHING to help solve the problems. The horrible part of all this is, I don't think most Americans want socialized medicine, but it's the only viable plan put before the populace. Bush, the Republicans, doctors, hospitals and drug companies didn't have the forsight to avoid this day by doing something when they had power.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:36:10 AM »

Can we stop blaming Bush yet?

dukkillr · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:51:32 AM »

Quote from: mirage1988 on July 16, 2009, 07:36:10 AM

Can we stop blaming Bush yet?

I think if you look through my history of posts you'll find that I'm no political hack. I don't regurgitate dogma like so many others you'll see posting here.

My honest belief on the question of socialized medicine is that it will be a net bad thing for the country. Like anything, there will be good points. Something has to be done with respect to the uninsured because they cannot be denied treatment and the costs get passed on to who? Me, you, whoever has health insurance and pays taxes. That part of the system has been broken for a long time. But as costs increase and coverage decreases that problematic aspect gets worse. It's been obvious for years. It's also been obvious for years that the country was drifting in the direction of federal coverage for all. It was killed once, but the underlying problems were not addressed by those who killed it. That's the heart of the problem today. There is not, and never has been, a viable non-socialist alternative. I fault Republican thinkers and healthcare administrators equally on this lack of initiative.

Now when it looks bad they suddenly scramble into action. They've all been talking about the money they will save, just out of the goodness of their hearts. But I bet it's too late. Obama has 60 senators and a fresh election win, in part by campaigning on this issue. I'm afraid it's a train that can't be stopped.

If the conservative and healthcare powers that be had taken action when they had momentum and power they could have avoided this day if not forever, at least for many more years. That they did nothing makes me sad, and I don't know where the blame lies other than with them.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:57:01 AM »

And you could have said the same thing without putting Bush's name in there.

Sourdough · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:00:45 AM »

Just thought of something. A government health care would in essence be an extension of MEDICARE the current health care system the government has in place. Is that what we want for the whole country?

teddy12b · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:05:25 AM »

Quote from: Heather on July 16, 2009, 07:16:47 AM

YES

+1.

Like it or not I think this will get pushed through. I expect they'll get more than a week or two to think about it, but not much more. This administration isn't going to be satified until they tax our entire paycheck, not that they have much farther to go.

Quote from: dukkillr on July 16, 2009, 07:51:32 AM

Quote from: mirage1988 on July 16, 2009, 07:36:10 AM
Can we stop blaming Bush yet?
I'm afraid it's a train that can't be stopped.

+1

rex6666 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:06:10 AM »

I read some where that LA RAZA is pushing this and it is supposed to included
all ilegal aliens also, if so we will have a rush on the border like never before.
I knew that bush was going to be the blame, just didn't know how.

teddy12b · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:06:43 AM »

Just look at how the VA hospitols are taken care of these days. In my town, the vets should get another medal for surviving their visit to the hospitol.

Eventually we will quit blaiming Bush. Obama got elected on blaiming Bush for everything and will likely be re-elected by saying he hasn't had enough time to fix all of Bush's problems. It's a great big cluster and I wish my state would join the others who are claiming their sovernty. I'd like to keep what the feds tax out of my check, wouldn't that stimulate the economy?

Questor · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:07:40 AM »

rex666:

Yes, it includes illegal aliens.

dukkillr · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:10:27 AM »

Quote from: mirage1988 on July 16, 2009, 07:57:01 AM

And you could have said the same thing without putting Bush's name in there.

I could have, but he was the leader of the country and the Republican party for much of the time I was refering to. He was an entire branch of the government. I hardly think associating political results from his timeframe with his name is being unfair?

mirage1988 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:22:03 AM »

Do you feel that it is the governments responsibility to provide HC to all people Dukk? I am a little torn on this issue because I believe in limited gov't but I also believe that the HC system should be regulated to keep costs affordable. Gov't has proven over and over again that everything they get involved with gets messed up to the point of no return, why do people now think they will succeed at fixing healthcare?

dukkillr · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:35:48 AM »

Quote from: mirage1988 on July 16, 2009, 08:22:03 AM

Do you feel that it is the governments responsibility to provide HC to all people Dukk? I am a little torn on this issue because I believe in limited gov't but I also believe that the HC system should be regulated to keep costs affordable. Gov't has proven over and over again that everything they get involved with gets messed up to the point of no return, why do people now think they will succeed at fixing healthcare?

No, I do not believe you have a "right" to healthcare. But unlike so many, I do not operate in an ideological world, I operate in the real one. In the real world hospitals have to treat uninsured people. That is a problem that needs a solution. The only solution on the table in the last 15 years? Socialized medicine.

My own personal idea (even though you didn't ask!)? I like the idea of bringing back county hospitals/clinics. Crank up the production of crap DOs and stick them there. Give them functional but old equipment. Establish baseline minimum care standards. Grant nearly complete immunity from liability. Then require that unimbursed care be sent to those places. Charge cash at the door but allow those who can't pay in. Obviously it will cost tax payers money but guess what? THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES TOO! I suspect this would be cheaper, more effective, and a better use of our resource. Paying patients get the treatment they deserve, non-paying patients get the minimum they require.

It would function like the VA only for the poor. The goal would be to create two tiers of care, but in America that idea is almost as politically unpalatable as segregation.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:40:55 AM »

It will pass due to the fact that the only people that could make a difference are ducking and covering to keep someone from singleing them out for persecution!

It's a bad thing for this country, mostly because it sets it on a path or slippery slope if you will, of total socialism! If this passes and I think it will, there will virtually no turning back. No one thinks Income taxes are a good thing but no one will do anything to stop it. This will be the same. Once it is the law of the land Even a Republican president will not be able to change it or will want to be the scape goat that does.

I hope my grandchildren will read this post some day and see that I at least was against this !

Dukkillr, is correct the folks that could have done something sold us out and did nothing to head this off. You no lessor evil folk also helped elect this abomination of a president !

mirage1988 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:42:10 AM »

I did ask Dukk, only in vague, slightly indirect way

I'll try to do better next time.
I like your idea, but don't you realize that this whole issue is just a political ploy to find another way to tax us? They could care less if everyone has coverage!

3006bluffhunter · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:56:34 AM »

SOMETHING needs to be done! My Employer said he is expecting a 16 to 20% increase in health insurance and said raises are out of the question! The last raise was $.32 and we changed insurances! We are taking a beating in are pay checks! Are health insurance is not very good any more $2000 deductable ! So I would like to see something done to help easy the premiums! But it could or would hit me in the tax end! Also Think of how many americans would retire if they would not have to stay at there job for health care! Oh Yes there retirement is gone I forgot 9/11/01 2007-2008 ! Bottom line SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE! My 2 cents! Dale

Questor · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:07:17 AM »

The system they are proposing is the "worst of both worlds" in the sense that there will be large overhead costs for funding an administrative bureaucracy and all of the regulatory compliance. And there is no reform for malpractice insurance, so docs will still prescribe extra tests to show diligence in cases that might result in a lawsuit.

Lower profits to hospitals, etc, ultimately translate into lower incentives to provide service (as with any price control). With reduced service there is reduced incentive to develop products, like drugs and medical devices.

jimster · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:39:39 AM »

TM...you need a link to figure that out?

You really think they would pass something with no bureacracy, no expensive time consuming get in the way regualtions?
Do you also need a link to know they will force this down businesses throats and make it so there is no choices for those who still have some?

Instead of looking for a link from the author of your choice...why don't you just look at every single thing they have done so far?

I estimate the legislation will be at least 900 pages long and we won't be able to read it until it passes....cause they don't want people like me reading their stuff anymore. I tend to circle things and pass it around...

Who needs a link?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2009, 12:06:27 PM »

Well Jimster, if it aint on the internet it aint real to some. Just look at all the sights dedicated to the factual creature chupacsbra.

I think this is going to get bludgened through. It will look good for a little bit but the polish will come off this turd very soon. It is socialised health care to go along with BHO's socialised baking and auto industries. At least we are seeing the truth from some who lean socialist here.

Hey what the heck I live in a border state with Canada, I can go up there and pay for services that are being rationed here.

Anyone who tells you that Canadians are not coming here to receive health care either unavailable because of high cost or is to backed up and they do not want to suffer or die while waiting is telling a bald face lie.

Casull · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2009, 12:37:56 PM »

Quote

If the conservative and healthcare powers that be had taken action when they had momentum and power they could have avoided this day if not forever, at least for many more years. That they did nothing makes me sad, and I don't know where the blame lies other than with them.

Dukkiller, exactly when did they have this momentum? You mean when Bush and the Republicans were barely able to pass tax cuts (and then had to make them temporary)? You mean when Bush and the Republicans were unable to pass any sort of reform of Social Security? You mean when Bush was getting all of his judicial appointments reviewed in a timely fashion? Face it, the dem's filibustered (or at least threatened to do so), cryed to the media and the public, twisted arms and did anything they could to stand in the way of any reform from Bush and the Republicans on pretty much everything.

I do like your idea about the county hospitals and basic care for those unable, or unwilling to purchase health insurance. In addition, I would propose a plan making those who are uninsurable (i.e. pre-existing conditions), but willing to purchase insurance, insurable. This would simply entail prohibiting insurers from inquiring about pre-existing conditions. Before anyone scoffs, first realize that insurers are prohibited from basing rates on race, or sexual preference or genetic dispositions or most activities (except smoking, which takes the brunt of most grabs for cash), even though these things DO have an impact on actuarial figures. Since the government already prohibits questioning, or basing rates, on certain criteria, why not add one more to that list? In fact, why not add age to the offlimit bases as well? Insurers would have to charge a fixed rate to anyone that wanted to purchase insurance. No more having to be in a large "group" to get preferential rates, since everyone would belong to the same group, Americans. The risk would be spread across the largest pool and isn't this what insurance is supposed to be about? Anyway, off my soapbox now.

mauser98us · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:30:41 PM »

Where are the Doctors complaining? Hope they can learn to handle a truck or some other piece of heavy equipment,or some other kind of trade,cause eventually they will lose their livelyhood as they know it.

jimster · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:44:05 PM »

My appologies TM...I was kinds goofin around, didn't not mean for it to come across that way....Sometimes I get irritated at the way things are and don't think when I post....

Sorry bout that.....I need to lighten up, and a shot of rum will do the trick.

Jim

torpedoman · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2009, 03:05:18 PM »

If you want health care fixed demand that any system they pass include them and replace the system they now enjoy.Contact everyone you know and have all of them demand this as a starting point of their reform.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2009, 05:03:15 PM »

I'd like to see BHO's science guru put in charge of his socialist health care program. I have a feeling most of the pro socialism folks have the traits, that he was talking about weeding out in his book.