Author Topic: Been doing some thinking... (Read 4864 times)

no guns here · « **on:** July 16, 2009, 03:51:46 AM »

about TEOTWAWKI or even simple (maybe not so simple) economic crisis chaos... Making a list of things that would be needed for a family to hang in there. This would be assuming you have a least an couple acres (hopefully more) and are in a decent climate and can have a well drilled.

Water - the most simple solution is a hand pumped well - get spare leather and seals and stuff just in case
- an electrical well pump or even an old-fashioned mechanical wind mill pump would be great
- water purification system, only for drinking water and some washing

Electricity - would be nice but if prepared not essential
- solar power would be best I think, not huge amounts of power BUT no moving parts to attract attention, would need spare electronics in case of EMP.
- Wind power next but those spinning blades can be seen from a distance and advertise that you are there

Heat - Wood stove for heat but could be pressed into use for cooking
- wood cookstove
- maybe an adobe or brick or stone oven for baking

Heat and Hot water - easily provided by passive solar collectors in most places and climates

Sanitation - an outhouse worked for hundreds of years, should still be fine
- needs lime

Food - chickens, goats and pigs all reproduce fairly easily and provide good meat and they can be kept in fairly small areas or even in a barn if big enough. All can be grazed if you get the right breeds of pigs.
- a pond or two or three (assuming they are stocked) will provide plenty of meat as well
- if you live near a larger lake, get a rowboat or canoe, learn to run trotlines and jug lines
- FRUIT TREES if you have your own land, plant MANY, some fail, some don't make every year, some die, plant different varieties, apple, peach, cherry, pear all seem to grow fine in a lot of places
- berries - plant some bushes now - don't take a lot of upkeep but you have to keep the animals out or you won't have anything to eat
- without refrigeration you will need a smokehouse
- root cellar for storage
- canning supplies in large numbers, I'm talking HUNDREDS of jars, lids, rings, flats etc
- SALT - you need large amounts of salt - might want to find the nearest salt mine and start making plans to assault it and take it... salted pork and beef will keep for months especially in cold storage... where to get the salt I don't know, haven't figured that out yet. You'll need a LOT of this.

Clothing - buy now, stock up, buy bigger sizes for growing family members, thrift shops work well for this
- nobody spins and weaves anymore really so clothes that wear out will have to be replaced some how, recommend going barefoot a lot too, there was a reason we used to only wear shoes to church and in the winter

and of course Guns, ammunition, reloading supplies, fishing rods, line, lures, hooks, nets, seines etc.

Wow... this is getting long.

Gotta go for now,
NGH

45-70.gov · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2009, 04:05:11 AM »

looks good but the bare foot thing

dont want a foot injury in hard times

all old clothes are saved.... for rags in good times
can be worn in bad times...........cost $zero actually save $s on rags

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2009, 05:58:33 AM »

Water doesn't need to be purified if it comes from a well. You can always dig a well by hand and line it with brick or stone. I have two on my place that are 35 feet deep and lined with brick. Old hand pumps can be found, usually free or very cheap, because most people have no use for them.

Meat can be dried or canned as well as smoked. Salted and smoked meat still has to be kept cold.

Salt can be purchased in 50lb bags for water softeners. This is rock salt that will have to be further crushed for use. Make sure you get pure salt with no additives. A few bags will fit in a corner in a basement no problem. Just keep them off the floor.

Outhouses don't need lime they need lye. Wood ashes work OK as a substitute for lye(lye can be made from ashes). Just pour in some ashes once a week.

BBF · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:19:08 AM »

Aah the Spirit of Pioneers

All good stuff to think about. however IMO IF They( substitude whoever you like for that) want to find you, they will.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:26:39 AM »

An expanded idea would be to have a wood burning steam engine to produce electricity or one of the small diesels that use vegetable oil, used motor oil, or diesel fuel interchangeably for electric production. Minimum electricity would only be needed for refrigeration and maybe some night lighting, expanded maybe tv-vcr or computer.

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a1d38c11e8cbc281fc15de0e4e6d194f&topic=4761.0

Use solar for water heating and heating mostly. Use semi-underground home for minimum heat and ac requirements. Easier and cheaper to heat water than solar panels for enough electricity for refrigeration.

Can and dry foods, and jerk or salt or smoke meats. Again minimum refrigeration. Hunt, fish, and garden using non-hybrid seeds.

Animal skins can be used for clothing. You can also learn how to spin and weave cloth. Takes time though.

If a creek could be dammed up, you could use it for electric production.

Lehmans sells all kinds of non-electric appliances: http://www.lehmans.com/

teddy12b · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:30:19 AM »

Interesting thoughts. Also add; go to field & stream and print off all their articles on survival. They have many great tricks that have educated me on being a better hunter and outdoorsman.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:43:57 AM »

i would think a wind mill and car generator and a few car batteries would do all the lighting you need

get a 12volt dc to 110volt ac inverter and you set
i have lots of battery powered tools
and an inverter and charger in my work truck

no guns here · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:20:32 PM »

Come on... just because water comes out of the ground doesn't mean it is pure.

Bear with me... 6 months after... lots of dead bodies, no electricity, disease could be rampant, people are stupid and will pee/crap anywhere, facilities that rely on electricity to control processes at refineries, chemical facilities etc will fail, stuff will get in the ground water. I'd rather have a filter/purification system at least for drinking water. One of my rental places in OK runs on well water. It isn't pure clean sparkling water until AFTER the filtering/purification. Before that it is full of sediment and minerals. Will ruin a dishwasher in 2 years or so if you don't at least filter. It's okay to shower in or stuff like that but I really don't like to drink it.

I don't want a motor to produce electricity. Motors break and take fuel. They make noise too. I'd rather have a standard solar power setup with a battery bank. No moving parts, no noise, very reliable, no fuel needed.

I'll throw in the hand-powered wood cutting tools. Axe, mauls, wedges, crosscut saw etc. I entirely forgot about that.

Then you need a way haul wood/crops... we have some horses but they are for riding. They've never seen a harness. Heck, we don't even HAVE any type of harness. No wagons either. Might want to rectify that.

Basically I'm looking at what it would take to get my place in OK or something like that up and running. I probably won't be able to build a new earth sheltered or earth bermed house. Like most I'd just have to live in what I have. However, I COULD add solar power. I could add wind power. I could go back to an old fashioned mechanical wind mill to pump water. I could build chicken coops and hog pens. Run enough cattle that I could butcher one or two per year. Our place is about 150 yards from a pretty large lake. I'd need a couple of canoes or small row boats. There are farm ponds with fish all over the place within an hour to two's walk. Riding a horse or bike they are just minutes away. There is a storm cellar that could easily be greatly expanded to serve as a root cellar. The place is at the end of a road that dead ends at the lake. Very few folks ever on that road unless they are going fishing or something down there. If this situation there wouldn't be ANYONE going down the road. I'd block the road by pushing dirt out there with my tractor or maybe drop a big tree across it. The ditches and wooded areas on the side of the road would help to keep out any vehicles. I think that location would be doable for surviving. 1 mile from nearest neighbor. 10 from nearest town. Bad part is the dirt there sucks. It's doesn't grow much veggies well without fertilizer and work. I need to plant some fruit trees. I'll look into that this fall when be are back there. No wood stoves, I'll have to look into that too.

NGH

45-70.gov · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2009, 05:37:43 AM »

i have an artisian well

from 600 feet down flows on its own

mannyrock · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2009, 07:45:22 AM »

No-Guns,

I lived on a 43 acre farm for 14 years. I believe that perhaps you would need to change your learned mind-set about livestock.

FORGET cattle and hogs. Since you already raise them, you know how much trouble and expense they are. And, how much BONE you are paying to grow in these animals.

Goats and rabbits are much much easier to raise, reproduce and grow much faster, can eat just about anything green, can be raised in a much much smaller space, put on weight at a much lower food to weight ratio, and would supply ALL of the meat, milk and cheese that you would ever need. Since they are smaller than cattle and hogs, and grow much faster, they would be easier to trade off on a routine basis.

Unlike cattle, a small herd of goats will actually follow you around wherever you walk. You only need one or two billy goats to keep the herd replenished, so the young kids that are male, you just slaughter before they get to be 6 months old. You keep, or trade, the nanny goats. Just think about how totally desolate the Middle East is: barren, rocky, little grass, little water. And yet, for tens of thousands of years, large numbers of people have lived there (and continue to live there) by just having small herds of goats. The same is true of the mountains in Greece. The land is as desolate as the moon-scape, and yet goats simply thrive.

Rabbits do very well in small cages, AND, their dropping pellets are probably the best fertilizer you will every find! Round, dry, easy to shovel and spread, relatively low in smell. You would spread this evenly in your garden, rake it in lightly, and then watch how quickly all of your vegetables will grow!

With goats and rabbits for meat, you could then keep your chickens strictly for eggs, and sell off the young roosters. (But, where in the world are you going to find chicken feed to feed them?? Even scratch corn? Are you gonna try to grow corn? It would be hard to raise enough. And, even scratch corn would perhaps be better used for making pourage, than feeding chickens.) Maybe you could keep a few chickens alive by letting them free-range during the day, and eat insects?

Perhaps you should buy a few rabbits and milk goats now, just to get the hang of it, and see if you like it. Goat meat is very good, tender, and tastes like mild venison. Throughout Greece, goat-soup is sold everywhere, and is made by cooking a goat shoulder in a pot with some vegetables.

Just my thoughts, based on actual experience. :-)

Regards,

Mannyrock

mannyrock · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2009, 07:54:55 AM »

SDS,

I respectfully disagree. Salted meat does not need to be kept cold, as long as you properlly cook it in pieces first, and then properly pack it piece by piece in a barrel of dry salt, making sure than no single piece is touching any other piece. This process is explained in several how-to books, including one of the Foxfire Books. Salt pork and salt beef, packed and stored this way, were the staple for sailors on long voyages, and for troops in the field, throughout countless wars, including the Civil War.

Now, I agree that you don't want to leave those barrels out in the sun, but so long as they packed correctly, and are water tight, and are in the shade, and not rained on, they don't need to be kept cold.

Regards,

Mannyrock

Oldshooter · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2009, 07:58:25 AM »

Good post mannyrock! the only thing you need to know about goats, as was told to me when i was investigating raising some is that from the time they are born they try everyday to find ways to commit suicide!

My grandmother had a big crock with lid in her utility room (not airconditioned) that she kept salt pork in year round it was never bad! the reason i know is i always went thru and pinched off a piece at the risk of a wood spoon upside my head!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2009, 08:34:10 AM »

A cheap pump is some 3/4 pipe and a spring loaded check valve .

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2009, 04:14:35 AM »

Sugar can do the same thing as salt. That is why they have sugar cured meat. Basicly the salt or sugar dehydrates the meat and bacteria can't live in it like that. Salt, sugar, smoking, and making jerkey is the way people used to store meats along with canning. Canning and drying foods is another. My grandmother said they used to have meat wagons come around selling these cured and smoked meats until the government said all meats sold to public had to be inspected. This was in the teens and 20's. I think FDR had the laws changed about meat inspection in the 30's.

teddy12b · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2009, 08:55:20 AM »

Lots of talk about salting meat & now sugar. How exactly is this done? Do you just slice it up and roll it around in a bunch of salt or sugar then wrap it up tightly? Maybe I'm the only guy here who doens't know how to do it, but I'd like to learn.

hillbill · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2009, 06:49:07 PM »

nobody really knows how to do it anymore cuz the technology died with our great granparents.it can be done but it is fairly labor intensive. as far as i know yu dont just slop sum salt on it and forget it. it must be watched and kept in proper conditions.get some books on it, read them and experiment. thats the only way yu will ever learn.

hillbill · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2009, 07:04:44 PM »

after rereading the earlier posts i see that mannyrock does know how to do it.however the huge quanity of salt that that method takes could be cost prohibitive.yu might look into the brineing method where yu inject the salt brine into the meat. the down side of all methods is that the salt and nitrates used in the process makes the meat very unhealthy to eat.however as my gpa who died at 99 told me, just work really hard and yu will sweat out all that crap.this from a man who lived on pork, sausage,cheese, bacon and many other foods that would kill me in a week.but then ive never farmed with horses either.

Gun Runner · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2009, 11:04:38 PM »

For more info, might try looking thru the Fox Fire books. Got a lot of good info on some things. Some of the cures for ailiments(sp) I might research them a little more before I tried them. Great set of books with a lot of info.

Gun Runner

Drilling Man · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2009, 03:49:51 AM »

Quote

I'd rather have a standard solar power setup with a battery bank. No moving parts, no noise, very reliable, no fuel needed.

What are you going to do 8-10 years down the road when those solar panels crap out? You know, they don't last forever, they slowly degrade, untill they no longer work.

I think you better wean yourself off electricity...

DM

Cornbelt · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2009, 08:24:48 AM »

We tried out the various processes for curing meat by Foxfire methods: Side bacon, jowl bacon, ham, etc. Some said ...bury it in (hay... corn... wheat... ashes), or lay it on a shelf. By far the most reliable was buried in ashes; drew the moisture right out of it. Sure was salty though, even after boiling in several changes of h2o. Turns out I get hives from the cure, and even pork if I eat too much. Ahead of time is the time to figure all this out. We finally settled on canning. Good for long term and makes a quick meal. Makes tough meat tender, too.
Someone mentioned digging a well, as well as sanitation. If dug, it needs the sides of the hole shored up so it doesn't collapse, which could be a big job (especially after digging it), but used truck tires make that job a lot quicker.
If it's a privy, 10 feet will hold a lot of crap, but that's an awful lot of digging. Might be better to keep a niter bed and empty the chamber pots in it.
If it's a well in ground solid enough to keep from collapsing, even the commercial outfits don't put in liners but just backfill it with crushed stone. Even a shallow well will have a lot of resorvoir if it is 36" or better. Goes without saying: Wells & privys need to keep a wide berth.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:48:56 AM »

How about a salt box ? grandpa used to hang the meat in the smoke house and use an old washtub to put the fire in and then add wet wood to get smoke . that would go on for 8 or so hours , the meat takes on a look and color . all cuts except sausage was placed in the box with salt seperating each . They also rubbed the meat with what they called borax to kill the bugs that tried to get in the meat . After the hams and middlin had cured they would remove them from the box and hang along with the saug ( note this saug was ground and stuffed in cotton bags covered with flour . ) When done this way you leave on the skin and cut off before use . The ham , bacon and saug would all get a blue/green mold on them which was washed or cut off before use .
Now I'm hungry !

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2009, 02:32:31 AM »

I've read and heard, they killed their hogs, or beef in the winter, so the meat would keep until they ate most fresh or frozen in the winter to thaw out and eat fresh. Smoked, salted, and jerked some for summer. In summer, they ate chickens fresh, because they didn't have to put up the meat. Killed when they needed meat. Ate eggs also in spring and summer. Caught fish when they could, and ate small game. I know you don't want to make noise, but a quiet diesel to run veggie oil, used motor oil, and diesel fuel could be installed in an insulated building to cut noise for electricity at night when the solar doesn't work. Wind power will also require maintenance. A creek across the property could provide electricity with a small dam and water wheel. Again a small steam engine running firewood could provide some electricity also. Maybe a combination of all the above. All of this will require lots of research and work to obtain. In the 1890's most Americans lived like the Amish. Might want to go live with some Amish for awhile to see how they do it. They had mechanical devices which have been replaced with electricity.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:01:39 AM »

Quote

Again a small steam engine running firewood could provide some electricity also.

You see this quoted on several sites, but NO ONE ever has come up with one that's small affordable, and that actually works. (not even home made) Yes, some have tried, but it just doesn't work in the real world.

The bad thing about running a diesel on used motor oil or veggie oil is, in a SHTF situation how are you going to get the oil? It would work until that time though, as i run used motor oil in some of my diesels, mixed 50-50 with diesel fuel.

The REAL answer is, to wean yourself off electricity as much as possible...

DM

teddy12b · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:24:21 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on July 20, 2009, 04:01:39 AM

Quote

The REAL answer is, to wean yourself off electricity as much as possible...

+1. I'd have to agree with this. I'd be more interested in candles, wool blankets & firewood than I would be about a generator. I enjoy reading more and more about all of this kind of stuff. Last winter we had a nasty storm that cut out power and I wasn't prepared. A couple years ago we actually had a storm so bad that many people were snowed in for a day or two. Sometime soon, I plan on buying enough food for my entire family to live comfortably for a week, just as a good starting point. That wouldn't count the food in the pantry. I don't think most people out there even have that much stored food in their house. Water is going to be the next big item on my list.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:32:41 AM »

I had some information on small steam engines several years ago. They used to run small boats, tractors and such. One guy made about a 20 hp steam engine to run electricity in his house. He fired it up a few hours a day to cool his freezer and refrigerator. In winter he ran to exaust steam in a system to heat his house and hot water. Don't know where I found it now. I think Backwoods home had some of this information. The Lister diesel will run veg oil, used motor oil, or even diesel interchangebly without a mixture. You could grow soybeans to make your oil. You could also run a standard gasoline generator by converting it to alcohol and ferment your own from corn. Has anyone thought of using animal power to turn a generator connected to a gear system on a sugarcane or grist mill system with the mule or horse turning in a circle? Generate electricity during part of the day for refrigeration. Electricity might be needed to power computers for internet service, wifi, and having refrigerated food. Yes weaning yourself off the grid is nice and maybe a must, but it would be nice to have some type of system or combination of systems to have electricity. Face it, a refrigerator can last 20 years or more. A very nice long lasting appliance. Having to power to run it would be nice. I think a combination of solar and some type back up is essential. You can make alcohol, veg oil, obtain firewood. Just need some good long lasting equipment. We have a generator at work for emergencies. It has been in service since 1987. It runs once a week to keep it functioning and of course when the power is off. It is a straight 6 Ford 250 engine and runs on natural gas. It is not hard to modify to run alcohol with a carburator. It just needs proper adjustment to compensate, seals and rubber to handle the alcohol which are available today. 180 proof alcohol is 90 octane.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:52:57 AM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on July 20, 2009, 04:32:41 AM

I had some information on small steam engines several years ago. They used to run small boats, tractors and such. One guy made about a 20 hp steam engine to run electricity in his house. He fired it up a few hours a day to cool his freezer and refrigerator. In winter he ran to exaust steam in a system to heat his house and hot water. Don't know where I found it now. I think Backwoods home had some of this information. The Lister diesel will run veg oil, used motor oil, or even diesel interchangebly without a mixture. You could grow soybeans to make your oil. You could also run a standard gasoline generator by converting it to alcohol and ferment your own from corn. Has anyone thought of using animal power to turn a generator connected to a gear system on a sugarcane or grist mill system with the mule or horse turning in a circle? Generate electricity during part of the day for refrigeration. Electricity might be needed to power computers for internet service, wifi, and having refrigerated food. Yes weaning yourself off the grid is nice and maybe a must, but it would be nice to have some type of system or combination of systems to have electricity. Face it, a refrigerator can last 20 years or more. A very nice long lasting appliance. Having to power to run it would be nice. I think a combination of solar and some type back up is essential. You can make alcohol, veg oil, obtain firewood. Just need some good long lasting equipment. We have a generator at work for emergencies. It has been in service since 1987. It runs once a week to keep it functioning and of course when the power is off. It is a straight 6 Ford 250 engine and runs on natural gas. It is not hard to modify to run alcohol with a carburator. It just needs proper adjustment to compensate, seals and rubber to handle the alcohol which are available today. 180 proof alcohol is 90 octane.

Most any non puterized diesel will run straight veg or used motor oil, my diesels will too, but i choose to run them 50-50...

Some folks have tried to make there own fuel from soy, and sunflowers ect... It turned out to be a HUGE time consumeing chore that wasn't worth it.

Most "off grid folks" just buy a propane frig, and try to get off electricity as much as possible. I have my own water source, with a decent dam, and it's STILL not worth the cost to go off grid! The upfront cost is just too high, as it also is with solar, IF you factor in ALL the cost. You have to keep in mind, everything solar wears out, and must be replaced. SO, every 8 to 10 years, you have another BIG hit, and i can just stay on grid cheaper than that. Of course, i'm not a electricity hog either. If you stay "on grid", and live like you were "off grid", your electric bill will be so low, it's a non issue...

There's a reason you aren't seeing small steam powered electricity... Check into it, and you will see it has huge issures to overcome.

DM

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2009, 08:41:43 AM »

Like the root cellar idea, cool storage for a lot of items and protection from weather and other stuff, conceal the entrance and you're good to go. My parents built a new ranch-style house in the late 60's, but left the old brick-lined cellar and built an inside entrance to it from the basement. Stored a lot of veggies, spare water, etc. in there. Also heard of old houses with well-like holes dug into the floor where they stored things to keep them cool.

no guns here · « **Reply #27 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:17:49 PM »

My guess is that 8-10 years down the road... either we will be back to "normal" OR we will be dead OR we will have adapted our lifestyle to exist withouth electricity and petroleum based fuels. Mechanical windmills provide a great alternative however in this situation you might NEED to have energy available WITHOUT moving parts advertising your existence. Generators need fuel, make noise, make smoke and need maintenance, oil, ect. Solar does not.

Yep, pigs got bones. Something that has to be dealt with. There is a lot of waste in all animals. The smaller "meal-sized" animals are a good idea. Less waste. I'm trying to find things that will provide nutrition, variety, ease of maintenance. Hunting for food won't be a viable option for the mid-term. Short term yes, until they are hunted out. They won't be exinct. People will die off massively before then. Then in the long term, game will rebound again. Either way, as man found out at one time, hunting is extremely wasteful of energy. Farming is a better deal. Comes down to:

Water, crops, livestock, shelter, fire, clothing, arms

If we can find ways to begin providing long term solutions to these issues for our families we will be much better off.

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:54:52 AM »

Without fuel and just transportation alone many will die as the land can only carry so many. This has played out many times in many parts of the world . To live off the grid one would need to out live the competition a feat in itself stagering .

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #29 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:32:55 AM »

Yes, small animals like fish, chickens or goats, would provide meat, eggs, and milk. With a goat, you wouldn't get a lot of milk, maybe a gallon a day. With a cow it could be as much as 8 gallons a day and they eat more so milk storage can be a problem without refrigeration. Chickens can be noisy, clucking and crowing if you didn't want to advertise your presense. You might also consider rabbits since they are small. You will need fat in your diet, and small animals may not provide enough unless you eat the skin with the chicken and the livers for additional vitamins. Fresh veggies will not always be available, thus canning and drying of foods.

In regards to advertising your presense, a small windmill that can be put up at night and taken down in the day might work to provide night electricity when the sun isn't shinning on your solar cells if you have enough wind. Solar and wind alike require batteries to store electricity when excess electricity is produced. Batteries have to be replaced every so often and can be expensive. Like I said, a refrigerator or freezer is nice to extend the life of your limited food supplies by saving leftovers or meat from a larger animal if you don't jerk, salt, or smoke your meat. This is why I suggested a generator of some sorts, to charge batteries if you have too many cloudy days in a row, or wind isn't enough to charge batteries.