Author Topic: Been doing some thinking... (Read 5079 times)

Chappers · « **Reply #60 on:** July 29, 2009, 03:44:20 AM »

Im interested in the point the hermit made with storing the sausages in grease.
When you say grease are you talking about the fat left over in the pan when you cook? How long will the grease on its own keep? How long will the sausages in grease keep too? Can you use only animal fat or can you use a mix of a animal and vegetable fat too?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #61 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:16:51 AM »

Solid Crisco in a can can last 10 years if unopened. You might could store smoked or cured meat in fat, then vacuum seal, and it might keep for a long time.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #62 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:28:58 AM »

My dad who was born in 1913, grew up out in the sticks, pretty much living off of what ever they scrounged or produced for themselves...and no electricity either.

He tells of shooting a LOT of sno-shoe rabbits as a kid, and my grandmother using the rendering from the hogs they grew, (fat) to preserve those rabbits.

She would pour the fat, covering the bottom of a crock. Then put in a layer of cleaned salted rabbit, cut up but not boned. Then she poured in another layer of rendering, more rabbit, and kept layering like this, until finally pouring on the last layer of rendering, to seal all the air out.

To eat the rabbit, she pulled out what she wanted, and pushed the fat back down, to once again, seal the top. The rabbit was washed and cooked how ever she wanted...

DM

mannyrock · « **Reply #63 on:** July 29, 2009, 12:33:45 PM »

I know it may be obvious, but for some it may not. In order to have grease that does not go rancid for a long time, you have to first "render" the grease, i.e. cook it. This means taking the raw fat, and cooking it carefully at a medium temperature, letting all of the light impurities cook and float to the top, and the heavy impurities cook and sink to the bottom. You have to skim the floating junk off of the top to get rid of it, and then slowly pour the good warm grease into a can or crock, and let it sit in a cool place until it solidifies. You have to make sure that you don't pour the bad stuff from the bottom of the pan into the can or crock as well. Once it solidifies, you have to keep a tight lid on it, or wax paper tied tight with string, and keep it in the coolest place possible. Otherswise, flies and insects will be all over it (and in it).

This may sound easy, but it's tricky. If you cook it at too high a temperature, you will burn the grease, or worse, create a raging grease fire that may be impossible to put out and burn your house down.

Bear grease was regarded in Colonial times as being the very best, lightest, smoothest grease. Beef tallow is harder to render, because it is denser. I don't know anything about rendering hog grease, but it is probably a better grease than beef.

I note that people are mentioning crocks alot. You can find lots of old crocks at little junk or antique shops in rural areas. They are very durable and were in widespread use up through the 1950s. Most of the 19th century ones don't have a lid, but instead have a broad mouth, with a short neck, into which a shallow ridge was cut (around the neck.) This was so you could put wax paper over the top of the bottle, and tie a string around the neck to hold the paper in place. The string sat in the ridge, for a tight grip. Crocks were particularly useful for storing butter, milk, cream, grease, or other heavy liquids, and you could then set the crock down into spring water to keep it cool.

Regards,

Mannyrock

The Hermit · « **Reply #64 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:47:56 PM »

Thankyou Chappers, Mannyrock has the right idea. When we butcher the pig, we take the fat from the bacon area (stomach) and from the back and render it down under low heat. We skim any impurities and pour it into Canning jars and seal it. This is what we use also for cooking and in pie crusts to make it flacky. It is pure white in color, like crisco. I have opened and used jars that were 10 years old. It keeps for a long time. I never personally used any other type of "grease" fat, so i don't know how well they would work. I found that most game fat, beef, chicken etc. turns rancid real easy. Bear fat keeps a little longer, but is not as good as pork lard due to what the bear eats.
I cook my sausage patties done and let them cool before I pack them away. I remove as many as I need and recover the rest to keep the air out. The cellar under the cabin is about 50 degrees year around and it seems to work fine. The other important thing is to use a crock that has the glaze inside. Other crocks have almost a fine white powder that is continually breaking down and will spoil the meat.

The Hermit

Drilling Man · « **Reply #65 on:** July 29, 2009, 05:12:40 PM »

Quote

The other important thing is to use a crock that has the glaze inside. Other crocks have almost a fine white powder that is continually breaking down and will spoil the meat.

Not to mention that pretty much all the clay that's used in the crocks has lead in it. If it's not glazed inside, guess where that lead is leaching? Also, if you have a glazed crock, with a crack or chip low enough so the food is touching it, the same thing is happening there too.

DM

Oldshooter · « **Reply #66 on:** July 29, 2009, 05:13:50 PM »

Ah hah! the new industry when tshtf, digging clay, making crocks, and glazing them in a klin.

Now before you say "thats a crock" think about it (pun intended)!

We arent gonna be back in the stone age relearning to walk upright we will just have to survive on what we remember and what we can make and grow with limited resources. someones gonna find a clay pit and start making his own crocks, then go into the business or barter some for some seed or sumpn. Theres gonna be fishermen, and folk that make harnesses. WE will go from there it wont be walkin stooped over searching for fire. Heck i'm gonna have chickens and sell eggs or trade em for rabbits. so on and so forth!

Chappers · « **Reply #67 on:** July 30, 2009, 01:10:13 AM »

Thank you all for the information and answers to my questions.
Would a glass jar be ok? I was thinking a airtight jar with grease (for me most likely beef) to take camping on feet with. Take a couple rabbits one night, cook and store in grease jar so at lease you have a night off from hunting the little buggers and still have meet.
With the temp being around 10c i was thinking digging a foot hole at camp and putting jar in with filling the hole in or jar in stream (string to jar tied to tree) so water would keep it cool.
Note: in Central Queensland the weather is classed as subtropics.

Cheers

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #68 on:** July 30, 2009, 02:21:55 AM »

I think quart size canning jars would be fine because they are made to take the heat. So, stock up on canning jars, not just for meat, but canned veggies. I know of a farm family who canned tomatoes and tomatoe soup just by what they call water bath, not pressure canning. They just boiled the tomatoes and tomatoe soup in the jars for a long time, don't know how long, I think maybe 30 minutes. They said it killed the germs and the tomatoes were acidic so that also killed germs. We used to do this but haven't in years so I don't quite remember. You did however had to pressure can meats and non acidic veggies. So it seems like food and food preservation is the most important thing to learn in a true long term survival situation. Even Wall Street says to start stocking up and predicting a long term economic colapse, if not now in the near future.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #69 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:05:17 AM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on July 30, 2009, 02:21:55 AM

I think quart size canning jars would be fine because they are made to take the heat. So, stock up on canning jars, not just for meat, but canned veggies. I know of a farm family who canned tomatoes and tomatoe soup just by what they call water bath, not pressure canning. They just boiled the tomatoes and tomatoe soup in the jars for a long time, don't know how long, I think maybe 30 minutes. They said it killed the germs and the tomatoes were acidic so that also killed germs. We used to do this but haven't in years so I don't quite remember. You did however had to pressure can meats and non acidic veggies. So it seems like food and food preservation is the most important thing to learn in a true long term survival situation. Even Wall Street says to start stocking up and predicting a long term economic colapse, if not now in the near future.

Water bath canning (sometimes called hot packing) tomatoes isn't a good idea any longer. Tomatoes have become lower in acid, and your looking for trouble when you do it these days. (yes i know some add a shot of lemmon juice to increase the acid) When i was a kid, that's the only way we did it, but we didn't have the bacteria that's out there these days!

Best thing you can do is, to get an "updated" Ball canning book, to see "tested" recipes/methods for canning...

DM

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #70 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:07:56 AM »

If you obtain non-hybrid seeds, that may be better also. So many new hybrid plants out there to increase yields.

The Hermit · « **Reply #71 on:** July 30, 2009, 06:26:22 PM »

Chappers, When I get extra beef, I cook it down, skim any fat, and can it in glass canning jars. It keeps at least a year (most usually it gets made into beef strogenoff way before that). Fill the jars almost to the top and cover with the cooking juice. I make and dry my own noodles too. Somebody mentioned using a pressure canner which is the best way to go. I don't have one so I use my regular canner and boil it until I see the meat bubble in the jar. It may not be right according to the books, but I have never lost a jar of it, nor gotten sick on any of it for almost 40 years. When I use the beef, I throw a bullion cube into it to replace some of the fat flavor. Mighty tasty.
Seed: I try to save my own seeds every year so I stick to non hybrid seeds. It is true that the yield is lower, and sweet corn is not as sweet as hybrid, but I always have my own seed and never have to pay a seed company for it. Also, this enables me to share with others helping make them more independant too.
A real treat is canning tomatoes and peppers together and opening them in January to make a sandwhich on home made beer bread. "Lip smakin good"

The Hermit

Drilling Man · « **Reply #72 on:** July 31, 2009, 04:19:07 AM »

Quote from: The Hermit on July 30, 2009, 06:26:22 PM

Chappers, When I get extra beef, I cook it down, skim any fat, and can it in glass canning jars. It keeps at least a year (most usually it gets made into beef strogenoff way before that). Fill the jars almost to the top and cover with the cooking juice. I make and dry my own noodles too. Somebody mentioned using a pressure canner which is the best way to go. I don't have one so I use my regular canner and boil it until I see the meat bubble in the jar. It may not be right according to the books, but I have never lost a jar of it, nor gotten sick on any of it for almost 40 years. When I use the beef, I throw a bullion cube into it to replace some of the fat flavor. Mighty tasty.
Seed: I try to save my own seeds every year so I stick to non hybrid seeds. It is true that the yield is lower, and sweet corn is not as sweet as hybrid, but I always have my own seed and never have to pay a seed company for it. Also, this enables me to share with others helping make them more independant too.
A real treat is canning tomatoes and peppers together and opening them in January to make a sandwhich on home made beer bread. "Lip smakin good"

The Hermit

The problem with putting things like this out there is, as a race we are getting weaker. You and i may be able to get away with not canning meat and other veggies, but when the next guy tries it, it just may kill his wife or one of his kids. These days prople die from doing what you and i have done, (and yes i have done it) and that's why the "books" tell folks to use a canner. Canning is SAFE, water bathing meat isn't!

This isn't a joke, times really have changed, and people really have died from botulisn poisoning, (and other bacteria) from eating water bathed food.

DM

mannyrock · « **Reply #73 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:55:43 AM »

Not being an expert in canning or water bathing of vegetables, I believe I would try every conceivable means of "sun-drying" before I tried those methods. For tens of thousands of years, people in sunny climates sun dried grapes, fruits and vegetables to last through the winter, not to mention beans. Since sun dried tomatoes are sold in grocery stores, I assume that you could sun dry them yourself.

Has anybody ever tried to sun dry tomatoes? Or something like squash?

Regards,

Mannyrock

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #74 on:** July 31, 2009, 06:13:08 AM »

Sun drying and dehydrating are the same. We have done apples before, and they are rehydrated and made into pies or tarts. It is a good way to store things. Jerkey is the same, dehydrated meat. Fresh always tastes better, but dehydration is a very good way to store food. It can keep for years. Fresh and canning will most times taste better.

mannyrock · « **Reply #75 on:** July 31, 2009, 08:31:55 AM »

Since people have been using small smoke houses for centuries to cure hams, I don't really see why you couldn't build a small smoke house, put some drying racks in it, and use it to dry vegetables instead of meat. Low dry heat, no insects, for a couple of days. Seems like it would be far easier than trying to lay them out in the sun.

The problem with the canning concept is that you are going to need a steady supply of electricity to do all of that canning (boiling and sealing), and the concern is that electricity would be either totally unavailable or in limited supply.

As I have noted before, in about one third of America, there was no electicity to homes until the mid-1930s, when the Rural Electrification Act was passed, and the government paid to extend electric trunk lines out to the rural areas. People seemed to get along OK without it up till then.

Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Lincoln, Edison, Teddy Roosevelt, John Browning, the Wright Brothers, Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, Henry Ford and various other sundry geniuses in America all grew up without it, with no ill effect. :-)

Regards,

Mannyrock

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #76 on:** July 31, 2009, 08:44:11 AM »

You can't really can good with electricity. If you have to maintain a constant 10 psig, it is hard to do with an electric eye. Gas (either propane or natural) is much much better in canning. You can adjust the flame until you get the exact pressure. Believe me, we have canned before. Don't know if you can actually efficiently can with a firewood stove, since canning is almost an exact science. They used to make kerosene and alcohol stoves. Again, you can make your own alcohol with a stil, then maybe use it in an alcohol stove. Wood might work in canning if you get it down to glowing coals and constantly watch it. We tried to can corn on an electric stove. Couldn't get it to maintain the 10 psig for the 20 minutes it was supposed to. Used 12 psig and it tasted like burned popcorn. Under 10 and it would not kill all the bacteria. If we turned it down from 12 psig it dropped to 8 psig. Had to give up on the canning with electric stove. Gas, it worked like a charm once you got the desired pressure.

The Hermit · « **Reply #77 on:** July 31, 2009, 09:43:46 AM »

Dixie Dude, I am fortunate to have and use a wood burning cook stove, the kind that has a warming oven over the top of it. It is also fitted with a place to install a watertank to keep hot water. I don't cook with it all the time, preferring to use a tripod and dutch oven over a fire pit thru the summer. But you are right, the wood cook stove keeps an even heat because it has such a mass of cast iron. One simply moves the pot to the area that matches the temp you want. One lid may make water boil, but further away from the fire box, you can let a stew simmer, while you go hunt. I wish I could figure out how to post pictures because that would show what I'm too dumb to explain.

. I do feel bad for those folks that don't have the type of "history" that I got, so I want to say by all means please follow all the modern safe methods of today and protect your family and loved ones. You will find too soon in life that God has called them home, which is also why I'm known as The Hermit.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #78 on:** July 31, 2009, 10:14:35 AM »

Hermit, I have seen these stoves. My grandmother used to cook on one. Had a top to keep food warm without over cooking. New stoves like this are still being manufactured, but are over twice as expensive as a modern gas stove. I guess it has too much metal in them. But, they will last two lifetimes if kept clean and dry.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #79 on:** July 31, 2009, 10:23:50 AM »

Here is a website with information about dehydrated foods. Notice in nutrition some vitamens are lost. Year round gardening can provide fresh foods for vitamens as needed especially greens like turnips, collards, spinich and such which can be grown in colder weather, and through the winter in the south. Kudzu, a scourge in the south, is eatable like turnip or collard greens, if you are surviving off the land, as well as dandilions, among other eatible plants.

http://survivalacres.com/information/shelflife.html

Drilling Man · « **Reply #80 on:** July 31, 2009, 03:26:38 PM »

Quote from: The Hermit on July 31, 2009, 09:43:46 AM

Dixie Dude, I am fortunate to have and use a wood burning cook stove, the kind that has a warming oven over the top of it. It is also fitted with a place to install a watertank to keep hot water. I don't cook with it all the time, preferring to use a tripod and dutch oven over a fire pit thru the summer. But you are right, the wood cook stove keeps an even heat because it has such a mass of cast iron. One simply moves the pot to the area that matches the temp you want. One lid may make water boil, but further away from the fire box, you can let a stew simmer, while you go hunt. I wish I could figure out how to post pictures because that would show what I'm too dumb to explain. . I do feel bad for those folks that don't have the type of "history" that I got, so I want to say by all means please follow all the modern safe methods of today and protect your family and loved ones. You will find too soon in life that God has called them home, which is also why I'm known as The Hermit.

I have a wood cook stove too, but i only use it when i feel like it. Canning on it is NO problem at all, i've even canned on a barrel stove, you just have to learn to do it, it's really no big deal. Canning is really easy, easier than reloading, and many of you do that! Same thing, just follow the recipe! Think of the Ball canning book, as a "reloading manual"!

DM

WD45 · « **Reply #81 on:** August 01, 2009, 04:28:05 AM »

The biggest drawback to canning in jars is needing a constant supply of seals and rings. Some of them can be reused but a lot of them can't. Jams and jelly can be sealed by wax and do not need actual lids. Canning is not rocket science but isn't entirely foolproof either. Things can look perfectly fine in the jar but does not mean it is even though it appears to be sealed. My mother would not allow us to eat anything canned by someone else because she didn't know where it really came from, how old it was and if it was done properly. Ever see anyone sick from eating bad canned stuff and you will understand my caution. In a crap hits the fan situation it will get you through for awhile but eventually you will have a pile of jars with no way to seal them.

gypsyman · « **Reply #82 on:** August 01, 2009, 05:34:07 PM »

I still use the waterbath method. I add 2 teaspoons of lemon juice to each qt.(this is for tomato juice/salsa/stewed tomatoes. And I believe you could get about a 10+ year supply of lids for less than $50. Pretty cheap insurance. gypsyman

WD45 · « **Reply #83 on:** August 02, 2009, 04:22:49 AM »

It's not the fact that they aren't cheap. No offense but I think your math is a little flawed. So 50 bucks buys you 200 seals and rings. If you are going to rely on canning to survive then to feed a family of 3 or 4 for a year it will take way more than you think just to get started. If you only use 1 jar of something a day then thats 365 jars and lids right there and if you are feeding 4 people if will probably take more than 1 jar. There is no guarantee that a re-used seal will seal so some things will be lost due to that not to mention the amount that will be destroyed trying to remove them.
Think about all the stuff you eat everyday that comes out of a can or is frozen and then think of having to replace it with ONLY what you put up and keep with no refridgeration. You then begin to understand why most people that lived through the depression ate soup beans and cornbread almost every day. My grandmother told me that she never ate a steak until she was almost 20 years old. I thought she was kidding and asked why. She said you didn't eat what gave you milk

( any of you guys know what blue jon is ? )
Now don't get me wrong here. I love canning and think it is a great supplement and could get you through a tough period of time provided you had enough put up. On the side of sustainability with no resources to restock damaged or unusable parts it's a different story

mannyrock · « **Reply #84 on:** August 02, 2009, 10:31:27 AM »

I tend to agree with WD on this. Even if you buy and store 10 years of seals, are you also gonna buy and store 10 years of lemon juice?

As for the waterbath method, most people have mentioned that it is primarily used for canning tomatoes (being high in acid). But, tomatoes are 99% water, and have little nutritional value beyond vitamin C. I would never waste canning time or resources fooling with tomatoes. You would be better off storing up 10 years of vitamin C tabs, and keeping them totally out of the sunlight.

Beans, on the other hand, particularly kidney beans, are almost the perfect food. They have iron, protein, carbohydrates, and lots of vitamin B. I would expend all of my energy on trying to grow and store them, whether by canning or drying, as opposed to tomatoes.

Just my thoughts.

Mannyrock

The Hermit · « **Reply #85 on:** August 02, 2009, 05:07:57 PM »

I dry beans and peas and hang them in cloth sacks made of old blue jeans. I don't can my tomatoes as such, but instead I make tomatoe sauce. Ragu sauce here is about $4 bucks a jar so I figure my jars save me much money. They keep a couple of years but usually get used by canning time again. I also cook down seperately tomatoes and peppers and then mix them together and can. I never use lemon juice, except on fresh fish. But to each his own. Certain tomatoes are very acidic so I balance out with a little sugar to taste. I use mostly wide mouth jars and try to keep a couple 5 gal plastic pails full of them, just in case....
The Hermit

Oldshooter · « **Reply #86 on:** August 02, 2009, 05:38:02 PM »

Quote

I dry beans and peas and hang them in cloth sacks made of old blue jeans.

Do you dry them then put them in the sacks or do you dry them in the sacks?

If you dry them how do you do it?

The Hermit · « **Reply #87 on:** August 02, 2009, 06:03:17 PM »

I leave them on the vine till the hull is almost like paper. Then I bring them inside, hull them, spread them out on news papers and sort out any bad ones. I let them air dry somemore for about a week, then put them in blue jean bags and hang them from nails in the rafters.

The Hermit

Oldshooter · « **Reply #88 on:** August 03, 2009, 12:43:16 AM »

Thanks Pardner, always wondered how to dry em !

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #89 on:** August 03, 2009, 01:33:01 AM »

When you can with tomatoes, you use the tomato stock for soups, stews, etc. People eat a lot of tomato products. Canning is good for winter storage when tomatoes do not grow. We also canned the tomato soup using tomatoes as the base, added some potatoes, beans, etc to the soup (no meat) and that worked. If you have a few hundred jars, you need probably 1,000 lids for long term survival. You will only can a few hundred a year for a family, but reuse the jars for years. Again, drying is good, but having a large garden is critical for long term survival, by drying, canning, and preserving during harvest. Hunting, fishing, and farm animals for meat. City people cannot survive without the farms. Having a small family farm is critical for long term survival. One can only tolerate so much wild game, and wild eatable plants in the forest.

What is the difference in buying 1,000 rounds of ammo per rifle than buying 1,000 jar lids for long term survival? One would probably use the jar lids and jars far more often than the bullets except for 2 legged predators. Also, from what I have read, vitamin C is one vitamin that without can cause rickets. Canned tomatoes and tomato based foods taste so much better than making a tea out of pine needles for your daily supply of vitamin C.