New guy wanting cannon

[a4beltfed2000]

OK new guy here.

read stickys-check
Purchased first BOOK about cannons, history and theory-check

First guys, I would like to find some more books- any suggestions, where to purchase as well?

secondly, I looked through the sponsors, and listings for cannon manufacturers, I have also spoken with 2 gentlemen from there. I am willing and able to purchase a barrel, but really want is a good recommendation for who to purchase through and who to stay away from, I would like to start with the coehorn mortar style cannon, or possibly a naval style gun.  I think that I am interested in one around the 24 inch length as they would be easier to transport than the larger brethen. maybe something in or around the golfball bore size.

My biggest concern is safty, I read through the dangers and want to make sure that I get aboslutely the right barrel. The two individuals that I spoke to warned me to keep away from the hern barrels or imported barrels from spain.

[KABAR2]

Well your on the right track, but I will say there is nothing wrong with Hern barrels
it is a good entry level cannon, rough cast finish, steel lined.
Check with Dom Carpenter he makes cannon and many on the board have them.

   http://blackpowder-cannons.com/index.htm

[Double D]

OK new guy here.

read stickys-check

Good start!

secondly, I looked through the sponsors, and listings for cannon manufacturers, I have also spoken with 2 gentlemen from there. I am willing and able to purchase a barrel, but really want is a good recommendation for who to purchase through and who to stay away from, I would like to start with the coehorn mortar style cannon, or possibly a naval style gun.  I think that I am interested in one around the 24 inch length as they would be easier to transport than the larger brethen. maybe something in or around the golfball bore size.

Contact our sponsors they will make you anything you want.  They are the go to guys and will make you what you want. And, they are the guys who pay the bills and make this forum possible.

If you find someone on the resource list  that you don't know anything about, do a search on this forum for them.  Then do a Google search and see what comes up. Same thing for any companies not listed on our list.   Be especially forwarned if they are a big name and not listed.

My biggest concern is safty, I read through the dangers and want to make sure that I get aboslutely the right barrel. The two individuals that I spoke to warned me to keep away from the hern barrels or imported barrels from spain.

I must question the credentials of the two individuals who told you to stay away from Hern or Spanish barrels.  Did they say why. Was their knowldege first hand or had "they heard..."

[Cat Whisperer]

a4beltfed2000 --

WELCOME to the board!!

Sometimes it helps to narrow down what you want.  Start with mortar or cannon.  Then what style.

Important to me is what ammo (and range) to shoot.

I do things in copper-tubing caliber, golf-ball caliber, beer-can caliber and PVC pipe caliber AND now 15" beachball caliber.
Others do things in traditional calibers to be eligible to compete in shoots put on by N-SSA and AA.

Some folks like to shoot blanks - that opens up another whole set of options.

[navygunner]

Welcome aboard!!! As others have said Dom Carpenter  crafts a fine cannon. I have his swivel gun and it's loads of fun and falls within your parameters of 24-26 inches. As for Hern barrels I can only say that our mountain howitzer has had hundreds of blank charges (1/4 pound) over the past 10 plus years and I know of a couple full size parrott rifles also. These barrels are found throughout the reenactment community and I've never heard of a safety issue. I think what might be confusing is the fact that thier disclaimer states they are not responsible for firing the gun. They are steel lined and you have to get the vents drilled. There are some companies out there selling "lawn" ornaments so due exercise caution.

Geo Dailey
Battery D 1st Michigan light Artillery
U S Naval Landing Party

[a4beltfed2000]

Big shots of idaho was one of the manufacturers that I spoke with on the hern cannons, Bill mckenna built my reproduction 50 cal arty piece and he also does cannons, he said that the hern cannons are cast around a steel lining and that he had inspected a barrel that was cracked and found that it had a (void)/air pocket around the liner (I realize that this is how the originals were built).  his full scale barrels are machined from solid steel stock. He has several full scale cannons and doesn't build smaller scale with the exception of a smaller bowling ball mortar, with a steel bed. those suckers are like tanks and are very very heavy. you need a jib crane to move it, which is a little more than what I want(dont think I could get them on my trailer by my self.

I guess that just kind of worried me a little about them, I realize that things can go really bad quick if something is wrong, and I would really prefer to keep both my hands and or life. My biggest thing is I want to make sure that I make a good well informed discision. Hence, my reasons for coming here. The other company that I spoke with was cannon-mania,which is my bad I thought they were listed on the sticky but I have looked at ALOT of the manufacturers and since finding this site, I am in doubt of the info supplied by them, I read some of the info on their site and was concerned with what I found, esp with the load data.

I see the liability disclaimers with several companies and I do understand that they are just covering their southsides.

I decided that I wanted to start with something smaller (24 inch ) barrel which would shoot golfballs and then work up to something a little larger/more traditional.

THANKS for the info so far guys. I do appriecate it!

So with the HERN cannons, does anyone fire projectiles in them or just black powder blanks? What if I purchased one and shot it then decided to sell at a latter time, would I be lialable for it if someone got hurt?

[Double D]

A lot of people are shooting Hern Cannons.  Seems an odd statement from Big Shot, since they sell Hern cannons. They also sell Jefferson Armory which is a cast, lathe bored and seamless lined cannon.

We don't give legal advice here, but I would think you would have the same responsibility that you would have if you sold any other gun or car you worked on.

[a4beltfed2000]

thanks! I understand about the legal advice. So big shots sells hern cannon barrels? I had never heard that? humm thats strange Anyways, I think I will start with Dom Carpenter  cannons. Although I am sure they are not historically accurate they look like a good starter cannon and the price is within budget.

Humm....maybe I will have to think about selling one of my big guns, anyone interested in a 1917a1 watercooled gun (semiauto) just kidding....

[Double D]

http://www.buytheworld.com/cat0-54-219.html

Yep Hern Barrels.

[a4beltfed2000]

So are the hern barrels used for just blanks or live fire with projectiles? I am trying to find info on building carriages and mortar beds? I saw a small amount of info in the stickys about the mortar beds but was wondering about more detail info?

thanks again guys!

[GGaskill]

Take a look at Antique Ordnance Publisher's catalog sheet for detailed drawings and period photographs of US muzzle loading ordnance materiel.

[brokenpole]

Welcome to the boards.

Personally, I have dealt with Dom Carpenter and also the Irishman (Michael from brooks-USA).  Both of these men are very reputable and make a greatr product.  Some of it depends on what material you want the piece made from.  Brooks-USA does brass while Dom works with steel (pardon me Domif that isn't right...I'm not a metallurgist).  Both make GB mortars and both willm ost definitley work with you.

Welcome the addiction world we all live in here.  There is no 12 step program.  There is no cure other than buying another cannon or mortar. 

As for me I am lucky...my wife is as addicted as I am.   

[TABatOBNJ]

Another new guy here, exploring an interesting idea.

I'm affiliated with a BSA troop going to the National Jamboree in 2010 that will represent the Revolutionary War Battle of Monmouth.  You might know the story of "Molly Pitcher" from that 1778 engagement - the water bearer who took her husband's place in the gun crew when he was wounded.

Our scouts will be building a gateway to their encampment in keeping with their theme, and naturally they are interested in centering their display on the cannon that Molly Pitcher served.  Unfortunately, it isn't clear exactly what kind of gun.  I would expect "grasshopper" or "buttefly" guns (British light three pounders) would have been on the field for infantry support, but I wouldn't be surprised if larger pieces were engaged as well (6 pounders, pehaps) -especially on the British side being they were taking everything they had across New Jersey to New York when they evacuated Philadelphia.

Naturally, we'd like to be as historically accurate as possible - so I'm reaching out for any information
you might offer on pieces from that battle or period - recommendations on pictures, plans, reputable dealers, etc. we might use to build a convincing reproduction - or acquire one.  Our scouts seem to appreciate our local history a bit more when it is punctuated with an appropriate kaboom.   The thought on our troop committee is this could become part of our troop equipment going forward for use on special occasions after the Jamboree.

A cursory review of the internet and your postings makes it pretty clear to me some serious homework is in order before we pursue this idea any further - and this forum seems like just the right place to ask for friendly advice. 

Some folks on our troop committee are very keen on the idea -so there's definitely adult interest in knowing more - but I'd like to understand what we're getting into.  Feedback is appreciated.  Thanks.

 

[RocklockI]

Dominick 

unbeatable for the price . call him ,he will make about what you want . i could not be happier with mine .

his carriages are steel ,they look good and are tough shooters .

[GGaskill]

Before you spend any cash on cannons, check out the national BSA rules on what kinds of firearms Boy Scouts are allowed to be associated with.  I think you will find that Boy Scouts are limited to single shot .22LR rifles and maybe shotguns.  Have to be Explorers (or whatever they are called these politically correct days) before the restrictions are removed.

I would be pleased to find out that the above is no longer true but a previous discussion of this subject brought out the above info.

[BoomLover]

TABatOBNJ, welcome to the forum! You might want to pursue another angle, since you are here...that being, check it out for yourself, instead of the BSA, and see what a cannon would do for you personally! Now, I'm not making any predictions, but you do seem interested, and that can lead to an addiction that you might never be able to control! We have lots of very fine people here, and our sponsers are great, so please do look, window shop, ask questions, and enjoy! I'll just never say I warned ya! BoomLover

[RocklockI]

TABatOBNJ, welcome to the forum! You might want to pursue another angle, since you are here...that being, check it out for yourself, instead of the BSA, and see what a cannon would do for you personally! Now, I'm not making any predictions, but you do seem interested, and that can lead to an addiction that you might never be able to control! We have lots of very fine people here, and our sponsers are great, so please do look, window shop, ask questions, and enjoy! I'll just never say I warned ya! BoomLover

that would be the blue pill ......if you take it ......just be sure .

gary

[KABAR2]

TABatOBNJ

First as an old Eagle Scout and a former Philmont Staffer, Welcome! 

I do not want to throw water on the project but you need to check into the laws in the State of N.J.I believe they are rather restrictive, 

building a full scale replica of a 6 pound gun will be an undertaking I know as a Bicentenial project a Long Island High School shop

built one with a steel lined concrete casting as a shop project,  if the laws will prohibit this undertaking as a shooter consider turning the barrel out of wood, 

and weight the rear so it sits correctly on the carriage.  Later if things change you could always purchase a shooting barrel.

I have not experienced it but have heard of re-enactment groups traveling with  a trailed cannon through N.J. being stopped and hasseled by the NJ State Police and made to remove
the barrel from the carriage for transport. Not an easy or safe undertaking on the side of the road with a heavy cannon barrel.


Allen <><

[KABAR2]

This publication may have the answers.....

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf


N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.3 Firearm identification card or permit to purchase required
(a) No person, other than a licensed or registered retail or wholesale dealer, shall receive, purchase
or otherwise acquire a rifle, shotgun or antique cannon, other than an antique rifle or shotgun, unless
that person possesses and exhibits a valid firearms purchaser identification card. No person shall
sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of a rifle, shotgun or antique cannon, other than an
antique rifle or shotgun, to a person other than a licensed or registered retail or wholesale dealer
unless the buyer or receiver possesses and exhibits a valid firearms purchaser identification card.
No person shall sell or acquire a sawed-off shotgun.

[KABAR2]

One more thought, on this subject, if it is deemed undo-able you might consider contacting the Brigade of the American Revolution

they will have a list of Re-enactment groups in N.J. if your troop approaches an American artillery unit about this event they may be

willing in participating by bringing a cannon and having someone on hand to answer questions. it could not hurt to ask.

http://www.brigade.org/

Allen <><

[KABAR2]

Before you spend any cash on cannons, check out the national BSA rules on what kinds of firearms Boy Scouts are allowed to be associated with.  I think you will find that Boy Scouts are limited to single shot .22LR rifles and maybe shotguns.  Have to be Explorers (or whatever they are called these politically correct days) before the restrictions are removed.

I would be pleased to find out that the above is no longer true but a previous discussion of this subject brought out the above info.

I staffed at Philmont Scout ranch in 1979 & 81 was a counselor out at Saw mill which was the rifle range,
we were using Remington 700's in 30-06 and had a reloading program to show the basics
Philmont also had a mountain man camp where muzzle loaders were fired I am not sure on the limitations to 22 rim fire
unless this in a new kinder gentler more politically correct B.S.A. which is always possible after taking a look at the new scout manual.

[GGaskill]

Yes, I think you are dating yourself (1979 and 1981) and the current version of the BSA has been forced to become more politically correct by various lawsuits.  Not that I agree, but the Great Awakening (see the end of the linked page) has yet to occur.

[blhof]

Scouts have definitely; my brother and I bought a Dixie G.W,'s 14" cast iron barrel and built the carriage for a scout project and we took it on camp outs and fired it as well as a kit percussion pistol kit.  As a scout leader for my son's trrop, they weren't allowed to handle any guns except at summer camp and only air guns there, and only on the range with one on one supervision by certified range officers.

[Cat Whisperer]

TABatOBNJ --

WELCOME to the board!  As you've found out there's plenty of help here.  Keep us posted.

Might be an opportunity for expanding on the Marksmanship merrit badge - like creating a cannoneering one!

My Dad was an Eagle Scout - probably had a lot to do with him getting from flunking out of H.S. to getting into Who's Who.  (Needless to say I have a LOT of respect for the BSA!)

[Victor3]

 TABatOBNJ,

 Before you do anything, you'll want to check the rules of the specific camp, as well as for the event itself. I've found that some can be screwy...

 Couple of years back I took my Son to a "rocket camp" at a BSA campground. I was annoyed to see folding knives on the list of prohibited items. I wanted clarification on this. Yup, they not only couldn't be carried by Scouts, but they were not allowed to be brought to the event by adults.

 Oh, and never mind that they were allowing 7 year-old Cub Scouts to build and launch Estes rockets packed with black powder!

[KABAR2]

TABatOBNJ,

 Before you do anything, you'll want to check the rules of the specific camp, as well as for the event itself. I've found that some can be screwy...

 Couple of years back I took my Son to a "rocket camp" at a BSA campground. I was annoyed to see folding knives on the list of prohibited items. I wanted clarification on this. Yup, they not only couldn't be carried by Scouts, but they were not allowed to be brought to the event by adults.

 Oh, and never mind that they were allowing 7 year-old Cub Scouts to build and launch Estes rockets packed with black powder!

Do you think one of the firms running airport security was running the camp......  might of thought one of the scouts could use that 3 inch blade to hijack one of the rockets..........

I think I need to go live in some fantasy world...... the real world is getting too strange to be real.......

[GGaskill]

I was annoyed to see folding knives on the list of prohibited items.

I gather Bowie Knives were OK?   

[thelionspaw]

You've got to be kidding?  The ubiquitous "Boy Scout Knife", cannot be carried by Boy Scouts?

Molly "Pitcher" is the nick-name of Molly Hays (married John Casper Hays when she was 15). Her birth name is Mary Ludwig (b.1754).

I must admit, she wasn't my kind of woman!

Read: American Heritage, Vol. VIII, No.1, Dec 1956, pgs. 46, 47, 48.

rc

[TABatOBNJ]

Thank you for the warm reception, one and all!  Allen, Tim, Gary, I very much appreciate your feedback - and your respect for the BSA.  It isn't easy in this politically correct day & age - but we make the effort because the values are timeless - and they will endure long after political correctness has gone the way of the Dodo. 

It looks like I definitely picked the right forum to solicit opinion and advice! 

I was unaware of the NJ state restrictions on antique cannon - but I can't say I'm surprised.   As for the BSA firearms, our Scouts have all qualified with shotgun and .22 caliber rifle on the range - but that's it.
We've got some time before the national jamboree in 2010, so we're still exploring our options here.  2010 is the BSA Centennial, and we'll be at Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia next year - so I suspect our Scouts will get the chance to see some significant firepower - even if we don't bring our own. 

The idea of kicking up the gateway up a notch from "cardboard cutout design" to "a simple mock-up" to "an accurate reproduction (non-firing)" to an actual shooter - intrigued several Dads in our troop committee - including me - which is why I volunteered to do some research on what might be do-able and what isn't within the context of the venue.   From your initial feedback and what I've gathered so far, I suspect "an accurate reproduction (non-firing)" will be the most likely path for the Scouts.   That said, Allen's idea of assembling a carriage and turning out an appropriate model wooden barrel has definite appeal - especially a carriage capable of handling a shooter at a later date.  Boomlover's insight is keen - I'll admit I'm intrigued enough to consider pursuing this personally - and like the old pocket square handkerchief, it would be very good to have "one for showin' and one for blowin"

Of course, this brings us back to the original question of what kind of cannon would be historically accurate for us to represent.  I've made contact with the head of the Friends of the Monmouth Battlefield Association and I'm hoping he'll be able to provide some insight as to what  kind of gun Molly Pitcher actually served.  Once I know what it is we want to re-create, I'll be sure consult you fine gentlemen on where my best bet would be to find plans and parts, etc.

Thanks also for the link to The Brigade of the American Revolution.   There have been several re-enactments at the Monmouth Battlefield in recent years - and I hope to get our Scouts to see one before the Jamboree - that is, of course, if our chicken*#$% governor doesn't try to close the state parks again to solve his budget shortfall.  We Jerseyans kicked out our last Royal Governor almost 230 years ago.  If it happened once - it could happen again.

Thanks again for your thoughts - it's very much appreciated.

Regards,

- Tom

[RocklockI]

Hern iron

ENGLISH SWIVEL GUN, 1750-1815   
NEW
Scale -- Full ; Trunnion Diameter -- 1 1/2" ; Bore -- 1 5/8" ; Length -- 30" ; Weight -- 104
Add "DOLPHINS" to this gun for only $200.00 more.


they are 400 bucks NOT 425 or 50 as listed on the price sheet .

plus they do not have the touch hole drilled ......thats would be a good thing to you in justifiying the gun to the scouts ......in fact if it were me i'd buy the thing outright for them .

it can always be vented later ....

BTW it is not 1.5 , it is now 1.75 or Golf Ball size .

i dont think you'll find a more generic BUT correct tube . it would be a GREAT project for them to smooth up and polish .......................for you ! i'd forget about the 'dolfin option' they dont look very good anyway.

then , they could have a 'safe cannon' and you would have a nice cannon . as they wont be in boys scouts forever ....it could be a win / win . makem work hard on that carriage ..... though.....

i'm thinking of the same thing for my wifes DAR chapter , they would love to tow a cannon by hand for parades . but they dont want to spend any money .......

also they have a nice looking 'spanish howitzer' for less than $200 bucks .....jmho gary


eta they have changed the error on wieght down to 90lbs