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Offline Default

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Marlin 444S question
« on: July 20, 2009, 06:27:42 AM »
 I had a trade I couldnt let pass for a Marlin 444S lever-action , Was wondering if anyone had any recommended loads for this micro grooved barrel ..   

  How well has lead worked for you all that have tried them ? I have quite a bit of 240g RNFP hard cast for the 44 mag that I have wondered if it could handle with out leading my barrel into a sewer pipe , Would gas checks be manditory for the 444 marlin caliber ?

 And helpful info / experience would be appreciated.


   Thanks in advance guys ,

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Offline BBF

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 04:58:23 AM »
Lyman shows plain base 240 gr bullets loaded to almost 1800 fps. Most loads are less(15-1600 fps). The fastest tried and true method to get the lead out is to shoot some jacketed bullets afterwards.   
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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 01:53:06 PM »
BBF ,


 Appreciate the intel .



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Offline BBF

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 07:42:01 AM »
In case you are interested:
Lyman#48 Page 290
Quote from the Comments Section
....." Those shooters loading cast bullets for Marlin rifles with MicroGoove rifling should keep velocities below 1600 fps for best accuracy. A hard bullet alloy of at least 15ghn will also help".............
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2009, 01:14:43 PM »
Sorry to say I don't have experience with a .444 or 45/70, but did put a bunch of 310gr GC LBT bullets down a Micro-grove barrel, and never could see why they got the bad press.

The .44 loads were the same as I use in my Redhawk, and they were real thumpers from the Marlin,

Personally I would not expect problems from cast bullets, but that is just IMHO.

Keep em coming!

CDOC
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 01:18:59 PM »
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 01:38:59 AM »
Default:  go to the websites quickdtoo gave you and you will learn more about your 444 than you ever imagined.  jmtcw.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 01:55:15 AM »
micro grove guns do just fine with cast. they work best with harder alloys and gas checks and generaly dont care for heavy bullets as the twist is slow in them. those are just general rules though as ive seen a few of them make me liers in that some will shoot about anything well and ive seen a few that just didnt like cast.
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 04:45:00 AM »
WOW Quickdtoo, those are some reads!

Thanks for the links!!

Keep em coming!

CDOC
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 05:17:45 AM »
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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2009, 09:26:33 AM »
Thanks Tim , I hadnt checked back on this thread , But had found Marshals articles on the 444 ... His favorite ( accuracy load .432"-330g LFNGCDCG/56.0g H335/WLRP/Rem Brass/2.582" C.O.L) is producing 3691 ft.lbs. of energy , that is just crazy.

 I had always wanted one of the 444 marlins since my youth and reading the "Executioner" series of books ,Thought i was getting a killer pig gun, Never thought it would be my Grizzly gun when I traded for it ;)

 Appreciate the help boys,


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Offline Mikey

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2009, 11:22:35 PM »
Default:  Nope, not crazy at all with the 444.  Thanks to Tim, more and more of Marshall Stanton's writings on the 444 are coming to light.  You will notice in Stanton's writings that his pressures never go beyond the capabilities of the cartridge or the lever action rifles that shoot them yet his loadings elevate the 444 to a much higher category of big game cartridge. 

I used my 444s on Hog and Elk and 'Wow'!  I have shot big hog before but never had them get busted right out of heavy ground cover as when hit by one of Stanton's loadings. 

Tim is right about the accuracy potential of the heavy 405 gn slugs - they don't shoot as accurately as the 300s, 330s, 335s or 350s but I am going to try soem of those heavier 405 gn slugs in a 1:26 twist 26" long Winchester Big Bore I have to see if a slower than 1:20 or a faster than 1:38 twist stabalizes them better.  I would also like to see if Stanton would be willing to look into developing a 375-380 gn slug, similar to the old 43 Spanish slug to see if that might have some accuracy potential.  Ya just gotta love the 444.  Mikey.
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Offline gunoil

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 12:22:50 PM »
shooting time's  had right up about the 444 marlin  may 2004 thanks WORM
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Offline Default

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2009, 11:20:27 PM »
Good luck with that project Mike ,

 Be sure to let us know how that works out for you , From the amounts of data on this subject that i have been consuming i have found that the winchester you have has alot higher pressure range that it can handle versus the Marlin design , Giving you a decissive edge over what i will be able to kick those loads out at , Think it was a project another fellow with a win 94 big bore was working up and dont quote me but i believe he said the pressure redline for the big bore was in the 50k+ range .. Think it was over at the Marlin forums , thou might have been at BTB ... I'll check on that tomorrow when i get up.

But nontheless a load from my 1973 Marlin banging out damn near 3700 ft.lbs. of Stomp 'Em will more then suffice  ;D


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Offline Mikey

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 01:56:02 AM »
Default:  Yes, I believe the Winchester action to be stronger than the Marlin action but the Beartooth loads I have used are well within the ranges for the Marlin actions and see little need for experimenting beyond what Marshall Stanton has done.  Those loads of his are incredible. 

Stanton's pressures for the 405 gn slug in the 444 are within safe tolerances - the slugs just do not shoot as accurately as some of the lighter weight slugs shoot but I will try them in that long barrel and see how they do. 
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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 04:03:14 PM »
Well took a drive up the mountain to the parent in-laws to go shooting took a few fresh loads for the marlin, 2 different 240g bullets loaded with a 51.0 charge of R-7 , 3 with the speer 240g soft points and 3 with the speer semi jacketed hollow point .. Both loads were at 2500 fps with energy at the muzzle 3,332 ft.lbs. ... They didnt kick as bad as i thought they might , but i still have a recoil happy shoulder ;) The semi jacketed HPs ( i'll post the pic) grouped 2 shoots damn near touching at 80+ yards ( stepped off )with iron sights .. the soft points werent to bad just 5 inches high .. But I'm still a happy camper  ;D and beginning to look forward to deer/hog/bear season.

 Only thing i need to do now is penetration tests with the HP bullet to see if it can handle those velocities and hold together,


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Offline BBF

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 04:00:28 AM »
It has been a good number of years since I owned and hunted with a 444.

 My recollection with any of the 240 gr bullets I used was that they opened up much to early, the jacket came to  pieces as well. The half jackets were the worst. This was before a lot of the commercial bullet casters were around or I wasn't aware of them so I switched to the only heavy jacketed bullet made for the 444 at that time which was the 265 gr FN Hornady and what a excellent bullet it turned out to be.
Even at close range it would loose litle weight on moose and still be almost 1 full inch across the nose.
Nosler makes a 250 gr Partion now. I presume it would hold up well.
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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 10:00:10 AM »
Yeah BBF,

 My guess would be that they will be lacking against that higher velocity ... But then again our deer arent BC or Alberta deer ;) and if you can put me onto a moose here in Arkansas i would gladly give you a buffalo nickel  ;D

 I'll be getting back to work tonight ( F*^%'n FINALLY heh) and once the house is back on its feet i plan on ordering some of the cast bullets from bear tooth bullets to try in this rifle..

 And yeah those Nosler partitions and the Swift A-frames ( they have a 300 gr one out now ) should be awesome bullets to try in the 444 marlin ..


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THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENSLAVE A PEOPLE IS TO DISARM THEM ~ George Mason

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 06:54:44 AM »
Default:
I darn near soiled my pants when I saw a moose earlier this year in this very part of Nova Scotia.Further inquires led to the info that they were around here at one time but died out because of some disease that they got from deer. It doesn't bother the deer but it is deadly on moose.

I don't think I could talk any moose into going south that far as Arkansas ;D

I'm not sure if Marlin changed the twist rate on their barrels since the 444 came out. I believe Hornady stopped at the 265 gr weight because there was some stability problems with anything heavier. Of course it isn't the weight  but the lenghts of the "boolit" which is really the important part.
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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2009, 07:55:14 AM »
The 300gr Hornady XTPs i use for my muzzle loader have shown me some nice accuracy at 75 yards with iron sights in this Marlin, Think it was 1 1/4" .. The reviews I have gotten from midway on that bullet have been promising , Seems a number of your fellow countrymen BBF have used them on moose to good effect.. So thats always a plus.

 From the research that Marshal has put in on the 444 his top accuracy load out of a older ( like mine) 444S model Marlin was a 330gr long flat nose gas checked hard cast bullet that will dump damn near 3700 lbs. of energy on a target at point blank range , so that is a good starting point since the rifles are the same..

 If needed I wouldnt mind a 290gr flat nose gas check bullet , Or maybe a 325gr ... Of course around here for deer some of these are a little bit of an over kill, unless I plan on shooting through a few 4" trees before making contacted with the deer heh..

 But on Buffalo , Bear , Wild hogs and maybe a Asian Water Buffalo .. I'm thinking that accuracy load may have some real uses.. Especially since I want to be going to Alaska as soon as I can manage it and this weapon with a load like that would handle any animal I'm liable to encounter.

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 08:30:50 AM »
Quote from: BBF on August 06, 2009, 06:54:44 AM
I'm not sure if Marlin changed the twist rate on their barrels since the 444 came out.

Twist rate is 1:20", has been for over 10yrs.

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 27, 2009, 05:17:45 AM
Current production 444 is 1:20" ballard cut.

Tim

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/444.asp


http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm
Quote
The question has also been raised about how well Micro-Groove rifling can handle cast bullets. The gun used in these tests was made in 1980, with Micro-Groove rifling, and was fitted with a Lyman 66LA peep sight. Marlin now makes this gun with cut Ballard rifling, 6 grooves, 1 in 20" twist (switching over sometime around 1997), so while the earlier guns may have some limitations based on the slow twist and shallow rifling, the newer guns should be very well suited to everything the older guns can handle, and possibly more.
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Offline Default

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 09:19:13 AM »
Both guns stabilized all bullet weights equally at the velocities represented in the accompanying data table.  In no case was there ever a bullet that failed to deliver acceptable to superb accuracy in both guns except for the 44-405g WLNGC.  Most times this accuracy level was achieved with differing powder charges and or powder selections, but none the less, no bullet performed to a less than acceptable level... for the exception of the .44-405g WLNGC bullet.  This particular bullet stabilized just fine at all tested velocities in the 444P "Outfitter" model with its 1:20" rifling twist; however, in the 444S model with it's 22" Micro-Groove 1:38" twist barrel failed to stabilize the 405g WLNGC bullet at all velocities that were developed within uniform safe operating pressures.  At velocities under 1950 fps. this long bullet tumbled and keyholed in the .444S's 1:38" twist barrel in every instance.  However, once velocities exceeded the 1950 fps. threshold, the bullet remained stabile out past 100 yards, in order to generate these velocities pressures exceeded the limits of safe and sane operation for the .444 Marlin in these guns, and that data will not under any circumstances be made available.  The 444P "Outfitter" model with 1:20" twist in its 18.5" ported barrel stabilized the bullet very well, and it remained so out to a distance of over 200 yards!

 * Marshall Stanton *

 The bullet range he reffers to is from 325gr to 405gr. and all lead projectiles were .432 in diameter versus the normal .430

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Offline Halwg

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 05:26:48 AM »
I don't shoot cast bullets.  For me they are just too much work.  But in my 444SS I have had good accuracy with Hornady 265 gr FN, Speet 270 gr Gold Dot, and Hornady 300 gr XTP.  I have thought about a 240 gr XTP loaded at about 22oo fps.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Marlin 444S question
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 05:40:39 AM »
One of the things I tried with my present 44 Rem Mag carbine was to use the Sierra FPJ bullet( #8615). There wouldn't be any expansion similar to a hard cast bullet. The bullet just would not group with that rifle and I am not sure it would be legal for hunting.

 Sierra #5 manual shows loads for this bullet from a 1 in 38" twist barrel in a 444 up to MV 2250 fps using 47.3 gr of IMR 4198.
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