Author Topic: Why am I against Government health care (Read 2342 times)

Sourdough · « **on:** July 20, 2009, 10:25:45 AM »

Well I'll tell you. It does not work in England, or Canada. If it did we would not be seeing so many Canadians coming to the US for surgeries, and treatment of health care issues. I have a friend who's mother came to Alaska for surgery, because she could not wait the waiting period need in Canada. Then after surgery she went home because Canada would pay for the medication she needed,where the US would not.

It's like rewarding people for having a lack-a-dasical attitude when they are young and not planning for health care for when they get older.

Case in point, my cousin Ruth and her husband Gary. Gary was an electrician, who worked in a rural area. All the jobs he did were for cash, that way he laughed about how he never had to pay taxes. Ruth worked for a small convience store off and on, when she felt she needed extra money. Ruth would opt out of their health benifits package, she wanted the money.

Five years ago Gary had a heart attack and can no longer work. Since Gary never paid into Social Security, it's like he does not exist. The last time I was back there Ruth was very bitter, she feels the government owes her something. She points to me and the health care I have from the VA and the health care I have because my wife works and has a very good health care insurance through her employer. Ruth feels the government should give her health care and pay for all Gary's hospital bills.

Second case, My Father and my brother Jimmy. Both Dad and Jim never held down a job for long, they changed jobs like they changed shirts. They never build any time up towards retirement. The health care they did have was the minimum they could get away with at the time. They never planed for retirement of for catastrophic health care needs. Today Dad has Alzhimers, and Jim has had a stroke. My Mom who never worked is extremely bitter that all she gets is Social Security, "Why it's not enough to live on", she says. Yet when I tried to point out to them back during the 60s that they needed to plan for retirement and start a program Mom laughed. Mom made the statement "Why who ever heard of someone planning for retirement at the age of 19". Today I draw an Air Force retirement check each month. My mother is very bitter, she says since the government gives me a check every month she wants one too. My brother Jim had a stroke last year and can no longer work. Suddenly his wife had to go to work, they too don't understand why the government does not give them a check each month, they need it. They all voted for Obama thinking he would take care of them.

OK those are family members, my other brothers and I will take care of Dad and Mom. But there are lots of folks back there in Tennessee, and all through the country that are in the same shape. Due to a lack of planning, living in the here and now, with no re guard for the future, feel the world owes them something. I and all the other people who planned for our futures own them nothing. Gary who laughed about how dumb I was for paying taxes, and bragged about he did not pay any. Now Gary wants me to help pay for his hospitalization, medical bills and help with groceries for him and his wife.

Mom and Dad talk to others that are in the same position. They talk amoung themselves and convince themselves that the government owes them the same things others have, and they want it. That is what I see going on right now, through out this nation. That is my view point on what I see. Others will disagree

Questor · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:40:25 AM »

My reason is that it's all about denying medical care to senior citizens, regardless of whether they have paid into the system all their lives.

mauser98us · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:23:10 PM »

Nobody is denied health care. It is illegal in this country to do so. Something happens,you go to emergency they have to treat you. That is the law.And the taxpayers foot the bill. Seems like we have a form of socialized health care already.I agree with you sourdough,many in this country feel like everything is owed them. They also feel they have a right to the fruit of your labor. The way it is now, you wonder how this country became a world leader. but then again the democrats have had 50 plus years to brainwash the citizens,soon to be subjects.

Sourdough · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:46:28 PM »

Heard Obama called in our Republican Senator (Lisa Murkowski) in to discuss Health Care one on one. Under those conditions she will cave. If she does not it will surprise everyone.

30-30man · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:49:01 AM »

I couldn't have said it better. People who already have good benefits don't want the change. Most people in the medical field don't want a change. Folks in the medical field are lobbying hard to scare people away from change. We'll I can't see the system being allowed to operate as is. It is the only industry allowed to not disclose cost until the procedures are rendered. They also are allowed to charge different prices on the same procedure based on what they think you can pay. What other industry is allowed to do this. The whole system is corrupt and sacked with greed. Do you know any poor doctors, nurses, or drug companies who are struggling? There aren't any. The only way this whole system is going to change is through competition. I have the state plan and good benefits, but I realize that there needs to be a change. Even our state plan is designed so that the state pays very little. Have any you priced what private health insurance cost are on a family with a resonable deductible? My brother found that the cheapest policy he could find was $1500 a month for three people with a $500 deductible and $3000 max out of pocket for each person. Most people can't afford this. It's not anything a person can save for. I wouldn't be critical of others who don't have the same benefits. After all your benefits are being payed by others if it's through taxes or products other people buy to allow your company to provide it for you.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:00:42 AM »

If you control the food and medicine you control the people , or will when you have more power than the people . That makes the Second amd. so important to both sides !

BBF · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2009, 06:24:16 AM »

All of you that malign the Candian system,even Glenn Beck had a rant at it recently. I'm glad we got what we got and wouldn't want your system unless of course I was a politician, CEO or a host of a TV program.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:10:42 AM »

After spending time in Canada I feel you are like many but not all from up there . The people we hunted with , the wife had a meter attached to her to check her heart and the husban was out because of back problems . Both were on the govt. dole . the husban guided waterfowl hunting every day - pole a boat in a marsh , set and collect deks etc. She served food and took care of a dozen hunters both admited it was easy to get over on the system just milking the system . Both said if they were really sick they would go south for help.
I am always amused at how much freedom people are willing to give up to think they are better off being controled .

nomosendero · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:13:39 AM »

Quote from: BBF on July 21, 2009, 06:24:16 AM

All of you that malign the Candian system,even Glenn Beck had a rant at it recently. I'm glad we got what we got and wouldn't want your system unless of course I was a politician, CEO or a host of a TV program.

Or a tax paying American

Questor · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:22:30 AM »

BBF:

Why do you like the Canadian system as much as you do? How does it work for you? What's good, what could stand some improvement?

Are you above age 60 or have a chronic disease? My observation is that the US system deals better with these two classes of people.

rak55 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2009, 09:14:21 AM »

best of all that I hear is people talking about having free health insurance in this country and that's what really scares me since I've never seen anything worth anything for free in all my days.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2009, 10:46:15 AM »

Well if tax money pays for it then its not free . Now in the USA most medical centers give imediate care at no cost to those who cannot pay so it could be said its free to them but the paying people pick up the cost .
If we have Govt. HC then all will get it and you have to ask if we will get every thing regardless of our working or not who will keep working ? and at what point will forced work begin ?

DDZ · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:55:05 PM »

Quote from: Questor on July 20, 2009, 10:40:25 AM

My reason is that it's all about denying medical care to senior citizens, regardless of whether they have paid into the system all their lives.

I agree. This is one way that Government run HC will bring down costs. They will just refuse to pay for it when it envolves someone they deem to sick or old. The people that will make these decisions will be people that have no medical backround at all. They have done a good job so far, of keeping the rationing part of the free HC quiet. After all they have to sell this to the masses. If this dosn't happen right away, it eventually will. So just imagine one of your loved ones with the need of medical treatment, and the doctor says sorry, but we are not permitted to give it.

Questor · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:45:59 AM »

TM7:

I'm sorry to be contrary to your opinion, but the experience of all the western countries I'm aware of that have socialized medicine show conclusively that old people fare worse in those systems.

It is very important to understand that this new proposed system has nothing to do with delivering medical care to anyone. It is, as written, largely a set of constraints on insurance companies that will likely put them out of the medical insurance business. This will leave the government system as the only option. If nothing else, the lack of competition in a system like that should raise a very loud alarm. But there is more. Much more. There are heavy constraints on doctors, hospitals, and patients too.

My recommendation is that you read some of the bill. It's quite chilling. For example, the government will need your bank information so that funds can be withdrawn automatically. Do you want that?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:44:20 AM »

Those who don't have good jobs or are in business for themselves making enough to cover their insurance needs, it is their own fault. We have too many high school dropouts, and bums who don't want to improve their lives yet want a hand out. I see it all the time. If you want to take care of your self and your family, you can do it. Even minimum wage jobs such as day care workers have insurance options. One of my daughters worked at a day care at minimum wage and was offered insurance and benefits. Sure it cost a lot of her income, but she got it to cover herself and family because her husband is in business for himself so she works to provide the insurance mostly. Even grocery stores and Wal-mart provide insurance options.

Questor · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:52:48 AM »

Dixie Dude:

We do need safety nets for people who just can't take care of themselves, and we have those safety nets. For those that opt out of a plan that they have access to, I don't have a lot of sympathy. We should all have at least catastropic care insurance with a high deductable so it doesn't ruin us. It's not very expensive.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:56:57 AM »

Its not about health care its about people control . Safety nets are fine as long as it is from private sources ( even if part funded by tax dollars ) . But when govt. controls your health care they control you !
They should be the watch dog not the supplier !

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:02:23 AM »

Shootall you are right. If they would use Romneys Mass(sp) version requiring all to have it, and if they can't get it or afford it then the state steps in.

Questor · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:08:21 AM »

This proposed system is diabolical because it is neither the watchdog nor the supplier. It is a regulatory agency that tells people and businesses what they can and cannot do. Failure to comply is expensive.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:32:13 AM »

Poland had the ansewer , sit down and do nothing .

BBF · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:42:28 AM »

To answer as best as I can.
Shootall: There are scammers in both countries, if those people really get sick and go south for treatment it will come out of their own pockets more then likely. I would presume whatever money they scammed here will not be enough to pay for their Med bills in the US.

rak 55. Our HC is not free, as someone pointed out, very few things are.
Canadians pay for their HC in different ways depending on the Province they live in.
As example
Through the general tax funds, in my Province. The Province also has a plan that helps with drug costs depending on your income.
Direct payment into a Provincial Plan, in British Columbia which could be shared between an employer and employee.
A seperate Personal Income Tax levy( similar to a surcharge) depending on your Income as in Ontario.
British Columbia has a reduced payment schedule as low as zero at a certain income level.

Questor: I am closer to 70 then 60. I do have an additional non-government HC plan through my last employer which covers part of drug, vision and hearing costs. Some of these are covered by a percentage basis, others are capped at a maximum. As an example, every five years I can get new glasses for a maximum of 400 dollars. Hearing aids are similar low coverage items. The biggest costs to us and most helpful is a 80% coverage on prescription drugs. My portion of the plan costs me less then $ 60/month for myself and wife. Both of us had necessary surgeries that we could never have been able to pay ourselves. If and when we travel outside of Canada over 40 days we will need to purcase additional coverage and that can be steep.

Sourdough · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:52:25 AM »

I know many people here in Alaska that have their own businesses, and either cannot afford, or he feels it is too expensive in his case, a health care insurance program with their business. In every case the wife works either for the state or a company that does have a health care program, and he or she is included in that package. Unlike the people back in Tennessee that refuse to look at it till it jumps up and smacks them in the face.

Sky and I were talking yesterday, he pointed out that the borough assembly has a good health care package. And a retirement package if you stay on the assembly long enough. He is checking with some of the members to see how much time it entales, it could be a good thing for a young college student possibly. Especially if that young man is planning to stay in this town for a while after college.

Sky is thinking about his future and he is only 20. Yea, he's thinking about girls, hot cars, booze, and everything else college students think of, but at least he is thinking about his future as well.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2009, 08:30:17 AM »

BBF no doubt they pay for it they buy the tyravel insurance . The point is GOVT. insurance ain't worth a da-- . IMHO !

Oldshooter · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2009, 09:26:47 AM »

This is so simple!

Because it is Government health care!

I dont want the Son's of Brothers to have anything to do with my health care!
When the congress and the President sign up I'll take a look! Ya hear that government guys!

And Canadians need not participate in American political discussions! I dont care what you think about nuttin!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2009, 09:32:31 AM »

oldshooter
Nice !

Questor · « **Reply #25 on:** July 22, 2009, 09:41:19 AM »

Look at it this way: socialized medicine will simplify things organizationally. Instead of being part of the problem, government will be the entire problem. Simple.

DDZ · « **Reply #26 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:08:16 AM »

[/quote]
.
I don't think so; this is what our system and intermediary insurance companies are set up to do best...extend life, and assist the huge equity transfer that comes with the last 6 weeks of one's life. Denying coverage for any reason in our kind of system means denying profits....ain't going to happen.

....TM7
[/quote]

TM, you seem to be very trusting of our government. In past history there have been many that trusted thier government and genocide has followed. How can you be so sure that our government run HC will continue to give the health care elderly people need. I believe rationing was something written in fine print in the thousands of pages of Hillary care.

skarke · « **Reply #27 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:28:39 AM »

TM7 and I have had a vigorous discussion on another post, so I won't reiterate old conversation. I fully appreciate all opinions, and recognise that this is a sensitive subject. I will, however, say what I have learned over the past few days.

1. Denying care to ALL people defined as old by our government is just downright unamerican.
2. It seems that at least 1/2 of the uninsured in this country make sufficient income, and are of adequate health, to acquire healthcare in the open market. Yes, this does mean that they'll need to adjust priorities, but prudent people do this.

Quote from: Sourdough on July 20, 2009, 10:25:45 AM

Case in point, my cousin Ruth and her husband Gary. Gary was an electrician, who worked in a rural area. All the jobs he did were for cash, that way he laughed about how he never had to pay taxes. Ruth worked for a small convience store off and on, when she felt she needed extra money. Ruth would opt out of their health benifits package, she wanted the money.

Five years ago Gary had a heart attack and can no longer work. Since Gary never paid into Social Security, it's like he does not exist. The last time I was back there Ruth was very bitter, she feels the government owes her something. She points to me and the health care I have from the VA and the health care I have because my wife works and has a very good health care insurance through her employer. Ruth feels the government should give her health care and pay for all Gary's hospital bills.

3. The most shocking thing that I have learned recently is that 18% of actively seeking seniors cannot find a primary care physician because PC physicians cannot make a decent living on what traditional medicare pays (I've posted before that the average salary for a PC phy is just 140K AFTER 13 years of school)

When we add the 23 Trillion bailout package costs to our national debt, whose going to pay for ANY medicine anyway?

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:45:28 AM »

im old,,but hopefully have some years yet...it would suit me,,if gov just stayed out of my health care... nobodies gonna live forever... ive taken care of the elderlies home maintenance needs
as my primary business ,, for my last working years... from what ive seen i believe its better to just guarantee that chronocally an terminally ill old folk,,just don t lay in pain...
nobody wants to give up thier last breath ,,but nobodies not gonna die...
  just give me pain killers to stop whats taking me out from hurting so bad an let nature take its course...
on second thought if its a quick killer,,allow me to experience some pain...its just part of the process of leaving this life..
but my dad experienced severe pain the last years of his life,,plus he had alzhiemers so he didn t have his mind to help him deal with the pain...after a visit to care for him on weekends,,i use to ask god why my good dad had to go thru this type death... but these things are not for us to understand..,
  still it caused me to want to live as long as i could endure an get some good out of life..
then please just let me go on..
  what has this to do with healthcare...i don t know..but i do believe family is the answer ...not govt...
  ive seen folk pass with loving family around them...ive seen folk dieing with nothing but strangers around them,,,and thier mind not sound enough to seek the peace of the lord...that is the most scary thing ive ever seen..
  may we all be handed into the lords hands by a loving family,,as we complete the cycle of life..
slim

skarke · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:57:56 AM »

slim rem 7, this is the medical ethics question that is front and center before us as a society. My question remains, do we want the government bureaucrats making these decisions, or might it be best to educate and inform the patient, or the family when the patient is incapacitated, about end of life decisions (we do an extremely poor job of education now, per TM7s previous posts)?

This still leaves the question of what to do in those cases where a person lacks interested family. Do we assign an advocate?

Tough, tough problems.