Author Topic: Cast bullets swelling??????? (Read 1950 times)

Darrell Davis · « **on:** July 22, 2009, 07:03:17 AM »

Opinions please, especially if they are backed by experience.

I have a RUGER 345 for which there have been no functioning issues, except with cast bullets.

Using a Lee - and I'm not a great Lee fan but the 6 cav. mold is cheap - mold, I cast up a supply of bullets, loaded the 45s and proceeded to shoot.

Found I had a bunch of failures to function - slide would not go into battery.

So, I got another Lee product to size the loaded rounds to what is said to be about factory specs.

No more problem ------ that is until the ammo set for a year or so.

Then it is back to the functioning problems, same thing, the slide will not close on many rounds.

OK, I can run them back through the Lee die, but what is the cause of this problem, is the brass relaxing/swelling or is the cast bullet the problem?

My bullets are cast from WW.

Any ideas?

I have cast for years, but this is the first auto I have cast for.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2009, 12:31:25 AM »

are you sizing your cast bullets or casting and shooting them as cast. If your not sizing pick up a 452 size die and size them.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2009, 12:13:27 PM »

Thanks for the come back Lloyd.

I am already using a .452 sizing die.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Cheesehead · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2009, 12:33:20 PM »

Blend the ww lead with pure lead, 30% or less of pure lead.

Cheese

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2009, 06:56:07 AM »

Hmmmmmmm?

Few replys!

Does this mean no one has run into this situation?

As already stated, the bullets are sized .452, cast of WW and fuctioned great after first running the loaded ammo through the Lee die.

But it is after they have been loaded for a couple years that the problem is showing up again.

Thoughts?

?

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:04:43 PM »

I've heard a few folks claim their bullets grew in diameter over time. Personally I think they are kidding themselves. I've shot a ton or three of them and never had one getting larger while sitting waiting their turn to be shot.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2009, 03:22:26 PM »

Afternoon GB.

I can buy the bullets "NOT" swelling, but if not, then what is going on?

??

As I first indicated, when I origionally loaded the cast bullet rounds, there were feeding issues.

No, none, zip, zero problems with other ammo.

But once the "problem" rounds were put through the Lee die, feeding was problem free.

Until the ammo set for a year or more at which time it was back to the same functioning problem but ONLY with the rounds loaded with the cast bullets.

These rounds are from the same casting/loading batch that origionally gave feeding problems and functioned with zero problems after the Lee die treatment.

Now they are again causing problems the same as BEFORE the Lee die treatment.

Surely I'm not the only one to face this issue, or am I?

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Hank08 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2009, 05:08:02 PM »

After a yr. you probably found some you forgot to run thru the Lee die. Lead doesn't swell but mike some of those bullets, not all .452 size dies are created equal, they could be .453 and just large enough to cause you problems in which case you would need a smaller die.
H08

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2009, 05:39:46 PM »

Hank's explaination is as good as I can offer. Just saying I've fired untold tens of thousands of cast bullets and have some I've kept for many many years and never seen one swell up yet. Maybe it got pregnant some how?

Hey ya never know.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2009, 08:08:12 PM »

Thanks guys!

And yes, it appears that Hank's answer is as good as it is going to get.

Considering the WW have been, "on the pill" for the entire time I've had em, it just has to be.

Thanks, and Keep em coming!

CDOC

Bigeasy · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2009, 09:40:42 PM »

Here is a thought-

If you are loading over a compressed powder charge, it could cause the bullet to walk over time, exceeding OAL limits, causing hard / impossible chambering. The loads that are hard chambering, measure their OAL, also, try to chamber, then extract - are there any rifliling marks on the bullet? If so thats your answer. I have seen this problem on heavy, compressed loads in rifles before, especially if the crimp is light.

Larry

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #11 on:** August 13, 2009, 07:34:46 AM »

Thanks Larry!

Everything is OK in the OAL department,

The bullet is seated over a 5gr charge of Bullseye, so no compression issues at this point.

Thanks again.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Cheesehead · « **Reply #12 on:** August 13, 2009, 07:48:37 AM »

I have been told about an occurence called "springback". This happens when useing 100% wheel weights. When using a die measured at .429 the bullets actually come out at .4295. This can be eliminated by blending ww with pure lead, eliminating "springback".

Cheese

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #13 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:11:42 AM »

Thanks Cheesehead,

Now I understand you suggesting the blend of WW and lead.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

MePlat · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2009, 11:16:55 AM »

I'm not the smartest person around but what I would do is take a round that did not want to chamber. Clean it off and then take a magic marker and color it all over and then try it in the gun and see where it is dragging, sticking, ect..
Then i would try to make a determination then.
If it is a too large bullet, which i doubt, then instead of softening my alloy to get the sizer die to size it smaller I would get smaller sizing die.
Lyman has a .450 that should size even the hardest alloy to no more than .4515" if it will size soft bullets to .450"
I've never seen a commercial barrel that wouldn't chamber .452" bullets. Not saying there isn't one but I've not seen it.
If you don't have a sizer lubricator get one. Midway had a Lyman 4500 for 125 dollars.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2009, 01:55:09 PM »

Hello again Meplat,

For a starters, I do have a sizer/luber, two in fact.

I did take a calipers and measure some loaded .45ACP ammo, loaded with Speer Gold Dots which functions with zero problems.

They ran .463 on the outside of the neck, just below the mouth.

I then checked out some of the loaded cast bullet loads and they appear to run about .465 in the same location as above.

I am using a .452 sizing die, and as stated the cast loads gave problems right from the start ---- until I ran them through the Lee die made for "bringing loaded ammo back to factory specs."

After that, the ammo ran through just like water, clip after clip, after clip ----------------------- not a problem.

Now after a couple of years, it is back to the feeding problem.

When I measured the ammo a few minutes ago, I measured cast bullet load from the problem batch, then ran ten back through the Lee die and they measured the same as the rest of the batch.

So, the question of why this happens, just may not be resolved here.

I do however, think your are correct in that a smaller sizer die is probably the answer.

I tend to think a step down to a .451 rather then a .450 might be the place to start.

If the trade goes through for the 45/70 we spoke of earlier, I will be ordering die for that rifle, so may as well make a two die order while I'm at it.

I also agree that I would rather not soften my alloy at this point.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Cheesehead · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2009, 02:12:02 PM »

What is your alloy?

Cheese

watkibe · « **Reply #17 on:** August 13, 2009, 02:26:30 PM »

Lead alloys age harden; after one year they are harder than when they were just cast. This is because they can over time recrystallize at room temperature. When they are new, the lead may be soft enough to engrave with the leade/rifling, but when they are old and hard they may not. If the cartridge OAL is long enough, that is. Chamber a round, extract it, and look for engraving on the nose.

MePlat · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2009, 02:38:41 PM »

Alloys do not harden more after they reach the point of their hardest. WW take a couple of weeks. Water quenched alloys around 24 to 36 hrs depending on the temp they hit the water with.
Veral Smith will back this up. Water Quenched alloys will age SOFTEN after time down to about 20 BHN.
As far as my alloy for Semi Autos it is no softer than Lyman #2. I like water quenched alloy better.
Alloys around Lyman #2 is plenty good though.
The reason I said a .450" sizer is one can always lap it out.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2009, 02:43:28 PM »

Afternoon fellers,

Cheesehead, the alloy is WW.

watkibe, ---------------

There is no sign of any engraving on a bullet chambered. Just tried it.

These bullets are cold water quenched directly from the mold.

I have heard about the harding process that happens over time with WW, but understand this is changed to some degree by the quenching.

This bullet style, a Lee bullet with tricated cone seats clear to the base of the nose, which means the bullet nose tapers from the mouth of the cast to the meplat, leaving nothing to engrave beyond the case mouth.

Thanks again Meplat, I knew I had read about the bullet hard and soft issue some place. Guess it must have been in Verals book that I made the mistake of loaning out.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** August 13, 2009, 04:15:54 PM »

Darrell: I would run those loads back up through the 45 acp sizing die. Pull the decapping pin/rod and run them up about half the length of the case - that should size them properly and they should function for you. If, when you loaded them last you may have forgotten to use that Lee die but if you run them up through it they should work fine.

Lee makes a Taper Crimp die, if that is the Lee die you are referring to - I use one for my 444 Marlins. I use a old 30-06 sizing die for my 45 acps and that works fine.

I don't buy the stuff about lead bullets gaining size. I've had rounds around I loaded 10 years ago and they still function just fine.............. jmtcw.

watkibe · « **Reply #21 on:** August 13, 2009, 04:54:14 PM »

Yes, water dropping stops grain growth before it has a chance to get too big. Small grain = harder, large grain = softer. Hardness basically comes from grain boundaries. Many small grains = more boundary = more strenght = harder. Forged and work hardened metals have the boundaries broken up and redistributed, so they get harder and can even get brittle (which is why forgings are heat treated.) Lead alloys are funny; they can do odd things at room temperature, like harden and then soften over time, or if water dropped, they can undergo grain growth.
Interesting thread, I enjoy the info.

Kirb · « **Reply #22 on:** August 13, 2009, 05:41:09 PM »

Dont know from personal experince but have read water droped bullets sized after 24 hours or more from being cast will expand with time.

Kirb

MePlat · « **Reply #23 on:** August 13, 2009, 06:46:38 PM »

Here's the problem with the elusive swelling bullet.
Lets say said bullet is sized .451" by actual measurement after the have hardened be it 2 weeks with ACWW or lets say 36 hrs. after with WQWW.
We load up many rounds with the expectations of going shooting to use them up. Something comes up and shooting gets put on hold for a period of time. Lets say over winter 3 months or so.
Don't you think we would have heard about this elusive happening more than this? I am sure we have people on here that has ammo they have loaded for the 45 ACP and others that are at least a year old.
Where do we see a problem?
I say it is something else. How much could a bullet grow even if it does?
It seems we would have heard about this more that this incident here.
Of course I am looking at it from a logical standpoint. Sometimes that doesn't work though.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #24 on:** August 14, 2009, 12:16:04 AM »

it can happen with some alloys. Its allways good too to let your bullets sit for at least a week or two before you size them. Another thing that could cause what your expereincing is that your crimp isnt adusted properly. If you have a tight chamber and are not crimping enough you will get failures to feed. Also small differnces in bullet seating depts can cause feeding issues in 45 acps. You could also have some brass mixed in there that is a bit long. When you have a failure to feed take a caliper and measure the round at the crimp line, and measure your bullet dept. I have not noticed any failures to feed that i can relate to bullets increasing in size but have seen ammo that was over crimped spring back in time.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #25 on:** August 14, 2009, 05:59:32 AM »

WOW,

Once you folk got go'in you have a lot to say, Thanks!!

Once again, remember #1. -- the the firearm functions with zero failures with other jacketed loads I have loaded. 230gr Gold Dot ahead of 5gr. of Bullseye.

#2. --- The cast bullet loads failed to function relyably UNTIL they were run through the Lee, "CARBIDE FACTORY CRIMP DIE," after which there were ZERO failures to function.

This Lee die is made w/ a carbide sizing ring for bring loaded ammo to "factory specs."

#3. ------ Now, a couple years or more down the road the feeding/functioning issues have returned.

Yesterday, I took 20 rounds from the box containing the offending rounds, and used a calipers on 10 as they came from the box, THEN RAN THE OTHER TEN BACK THROUGH THE LEE DIE after which I measured those rounds.

They measured out the SAME as the first ten that were not resized.

Probably what I am going to do is, run the remaining rounds back through the Lee die, go out and shoot --I hope -- the entire batch and then buy a .450 or .451 sizing die and see if that takes care of the issue once and for all.

Anyway, sure enjoy all the info and thoughts. I maybe/am an "Ol'Coot", but there is still some room for new info.

Keep it coming!

CDOC

gypsyman · « **Reply #26 on:** August 14, 2009, 05:01:55 PM »

Darrell, just a thought. Are you segragating your brass? Some brass is thicker than others. Even with the same manufacturer, lots vary. If you are having trouble with some, and not others, have you checked the headstamp? gypsyman

mechanic · « **Reply #27 on:** August 14, 2009, 05:13:36 PM »

Some lead can "swell" with age, but it is usually not WW. Lead that has been exposed to chemicals, such as battery acid, will begin to absorb and degrade. As they degrade, they will soften and swell to some extent. I call it "rot" for lack of a better term. Because I repair batteries that weigh in excess of 2 tons, I see quite a bit of this, always on older batteries that have not been kept clean. How WW lead could react this way would be a mystery to me. Unless it is recycled from something else as well.

Another one of life's little conundrums....

Ben

Old Pete · « **Reply #28 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:08:30 PM »

Hello all. I just registered on this forum so I could post as well as lurk. Great forum!

I am surprised that nobody has asked Mr. Davis whether he has made a Cerrosafe cast of the chamber of his Ruger barrel. It seems to me that there is a strong possibility that the chamber diameter is smaller than the SAAMI minimum dimension.

Pete

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #29 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:41:17 PM »

Even'in,

Well, the answer to the segragation is, NO.

It hasn't been a problem with the jacketed bullet loads, but --------?.

And NO, also as to the chamber cast.

Hmmmmmmmm, "Mr. Davis", WOW Old Pete you are sure formal for deal'in with some of us ol'fellers.

Round abouts here, I would more likely go by Ol'Coot.

In fact, the "CDOC" at the bottom of my posts stand for Crusty Deary Ol'Coot.

Kind of take it as my duty to beet the young wipper snappers to the punch, if'n ya know what I mean.

But ya best not be overly formal round here or we might get to expect it all the time.

The undersize situation is one I hadn't thought of, thanks.

Keep em coming"

CDOC