Author Topic: Boer Artillery  (Read 2783 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2009, 11:11:05 PM »
DD

I have the same pictures. That is the one in the war Museum in JHB. I have e-mailed some historians at the Museum of Boer Republics in Bloemfontein for more info on the Seeppot and are waiting for reply from them. I will keep you updated with the progress.

Pieter

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2009, 03:04:18 AM »
Thanks Pieter!

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2009, 03:30:16 AM »
Pieter,

 What does the Afrikaans word seeppot, translate to in English?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2009, 03:34:44 AM »
Soap pot.

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2009, 04:01:03 AM »
Dankie!
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2009, 09:40:00 PM »
Boom J
I am impressed.

Pieter

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2009, 03:29:28 PM »
Thanks Pieter, the dankie was easy to find, I don't know why I couldn't get the translation for seeppot.


Whole paragraphs about the seeppot mortar contained here are also in the two documents DD first posted, but there is also some additional information on the mortar.

The specifications of the 8-inch Boer mortar were:
 
Calibre    8-in (203 mm)
Weight of gun    9 cwt (460 kg)
Ammunition    Common & star     
Range    2000 yards (1830 m) approx.
 

History
During the early 1880s the Transvaal Republic conducted a number of small internal campaigns against native tribes, many of these ending up in mountain sieges. To assist, a howitzer and a mortar were bought from the Cape Colony. The howitzer (see last month's article), and hence presumably the mortar, arrived in Pretoria from King Williams Town on 7 April 1882.
In Boer hands the mortar was dubbed "Seeppot" (Soap pot), because of its resemblance to the big three legged pots used to cook soap and the large volumes of smoke it produced when fired!
One incident with this mortar was recorded during the 1882-1883 campaign against the tribal chieftains Mampuru and Nyabęla (Njabel). During the siege of an enemy position, Commandant HPN Pretorius, later CO of the Staatsartillerie (State Artillery), used the mortar to bombard the strongpoint with shells filled with lead (probably to pound down stone walls). After he observed the enemy recovering some of these shells and placing them in a fire to melt the lead out in order to cast bullets, he had the next shell filled with black powder. Instead of fitting a time fuze to it, the opening was carefully covered with lead before being fired into the enemy's positions. The consequences of this shell being placed into the fire can only be imagined and seven tribesmen are said to have died of the blast with several more wounded.       

During the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902 this antique piece again saw service, this time outside Ladysmith during the siege of the town. Although obsolete by then, it was presumably used to fire star shells at night to provide light. The only known photo of Seeppot was taken on Vaalkop outside Ladysmith during the siege.
 


Burghers posing with “Seeppot” on Vaalkop during the siege of Ladysmith Nov 1899-Feb 1900. Note the burgher behind the rammer/sponge is standing with two bagged charges of black powder in his hands while smoking a pipe! Again, do not try this at home…


 Close inspection of this photo revealed that the Boer mortar originated from the British gun founder, Bailey Pegg & Company (BP & Co). Documents on captured Boer Artillery in the British Public Records Office (WO32/7028) and a Transvaal Staatsartillerie letter in the Pretoria Archives identified this specific mortar's serial number as No.16. The photo shows the Boer mortar mounted on a wooden mortar bed with a trial and wheels axles. To transport it the bed had wooden spoke wheels that had to be removed before it could be fired. To ignite the charge it seems that a friction tube and lanyard was used.
When the siege of Ladysmith was lifted at the end of February 1900, Seeppot was rolled down Vaalkop and left there for the advancing English. Fortunately, while falling back from the Tugela front, Major Lood Pretorius of the Staatsartillerie and a couple of his men found the poor old mortar abandoned at the foot of the hill and saved it. It was presumably transported back to Pretoria by rail, because on 5 June 1900 it was found abandoned in Pretoria by the British. After the war it was shipped to England aboard the Avondale Castle, leaving South Africa on 30 December 1903. In 1904 the mortar was given to the City of Manchester as a war trophy. Unfortunately it is doubted whether it survived the scrap drives of World War II...

Epilogue
Fortunately two similar 8-in BP & Co. mortars survived in South Africa. Both are Mark IV pieces mounted on iron mortar beds manufactured for the Board of Ordnance. Of these, No.24 today guards the entrance of Fort Klapperkop in Pretoria and is inscribed with the date 1855 and a weight of 9-1-4 (9x112 + 1x28 + 4 = 1040 lb.) The second, No.4, is kept at the SA National Museum of Military History in Johannesburg and is dated 1849 with a weight of 9-0-18 (1026 lb.) The date of manufacture of the Boer mortar therefore must have been somewhere between 1849 and 1855. This disposes of earlier historians' suggestions that Seeppot was also in action at Blood River in 1838!

The mortar on display at the SA National Museum of Military History was used by the Cape Mounted Rifles at Mount Morosi in Basutoland during the 1878–1879 Gun War. It was later taken to Umtata where it served as a time gun, being fired daily at 9am. It was donated to the Military Museum in 1951. It is quite possible that the Boer mortar also saw service on British side during the Gun War before being sold to the Transvaal.


 Sources:
Breytenbach, JH: Die Geskiedenis van die Tweede Vryheidsoorlog, Vol. 1, Die Staatsdrukker, Pretoria, 1969
De Vries, G & Hall, J: The Muzzle Loading Cannon of South Africa, Private, Cape Town, 2001
De Vries, G: Cannon Research Projects Newsletter, No. 11, Jul 2004
Ferreira, OJO: Geschiedenis, Werken en Streven van S.P.E. Trichard, RGN, Pretoria, 1975
Government-Secretary & Commandant General: Incoming Letters, Transvaal Archives, 1895 to 1899
Hall, DD: The Hall Handbook of the Anglo-Boer War, University of Natal Press, Pietermaritzburg, 1999
Haupt, DJ: Die Staatsartillerie van die Suid-Afrikaanse Republiek, MA-UP, Pretoria, 1946
Preller, GS: Historiese Opstelle, Van Schaik, Pretoria, 1925
Pretorius, JL: Ons Suidafrikaanse Militaire Tradisie, Die Brandwag, 28 June 1910
Pretorius, JL: Unpublished memoirs, Private collection, Pretoria
War Office Documentation 1899-1904, Public Records Office, Kew London and National Archives, Pretoria
 


RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2009, 08:32:47 PM »
Thanks Boom J

I have communicated with G de Vries before(in the sources). That was when the cannon bug bit me. I will try him personally for more info.

Pieter

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2009, 12:16:29 AM »
Has anyone ever checked with the city of Manchester to see if it still exists? maybe it survived the scrap drives.....

It would be nice if this mortar with it's related history could be returned to South Africa   
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline carronader

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
  • Gender: Male
  • What? me worry.
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2009, 01:04:20 AM »
had a sniff around Manc museum and newspaper archives...........no sign of it Kabar
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2009, 10:57:35 AM »
Southpaw and I were in the grocery store the other day and he introduced me to a retired guy who has a machine shop and a lathe that can swing 24 inches.  Got to talking with the guy about machining the bore and radius for this mortar.  When we we were all through talking he invited me over to do it myself!!!  YeeHaw!!!


Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2009, 11:07:44 AM »
Southpaw and I were in the grocery store the other day and he introduced me to a retired guy who has a machine shop and a lathe that can swing 24 inches.  Got to talking with the guy about machining the bore and radius for this mortar.  When we we were all through talking he invited me over to do it myself!!!  YeeHaw!!!



It' always good to make friends like that!  ;D
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2009, 07:49:44 AM »
Here's Seeppot:



I am going to have to get one of those hats!!!
 

Does any one have any idea how to convert the angled base line measurements of the base of the mortar to 90-270 degree horizontal and 0-180 verticl measurements?

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2009, 12:11:07 PM »
Not quite sure what you are asking; there would be a little distortion due to depth but I think it would be so little that I would simply measure the diagonal line directly and scale from that, if that is what you are asking.

Otherwise, please elaborate.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2009, 12:50:46 PM »
Optical illusion. Stand in the middle of the railroad tracks and they appear to meet on the horizon. 

 Because the base is at an angle to the camera the length of the base line appears shorter than it is realy is. The height of the base at the front appears taller that height of the base at the rear when they are equal.

Hold a little fish out in front of you when your picture is taken.  The fish will appear large you will appear to be small.

There is a formula or method for calculating  the length of the base if it were horizontal and 90-270 degrees to the lens based on the angle to the lens. 

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2009, 01:16:10 PM »
I think you will have do know things like the distance the camera is from the object to do this with any real accuracy.  But I will see what I can derive.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2009, 01:30:24 PM »
I think you will have do know things like the distance the camera is from the object to do this with any real accuracy.  But I will see what I can derive.

It's only been about 40 years since I saw the formula in Crime Scene analysis classes in college, maybe only 39 years.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2009, 02:22:10 PM »
Yeah, but you probably could determine the camera position then.  Here we just have to guess.

But I am working on it.  I assume you are googling "crime scene analysis."
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
WARNING: Mathematical discussion here
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2009, 02:51:15 PM »
Let's think about this.  Let's start with a rectangular solid 1' high, 2' wide and 3' long.  Let's set it 20' in front of us with the 1' by 3' side facing and perpendicular to us and assume that the middle of each side is at eye level (we are not looking down or up at it.)  We see a rectangle with parallel sides of corresponding length, that is, the two 1' sides are the same length and the two 3' sides are the same length.  The 1' edges are vertical.

First, let's move 1.5' to the right so we align with the right hand side.  The two vertical sides are no longer exactly the same length since one is now slightly farther away than the other.  One is 20' away; from Pythagoras, the other is the square root of (202 + 32) or 20.224' away.  It is proportionally 20/20.224 (.9889) of the apparent length of the one at 20'. 

Now let's rotate the object about the front right hand 1' edge 30° clockwise (looking down.)  This swings the left 1' edge to the rear and makes the right rear 1' edge visible to the right.  The left edge is now 2.5981' (cos 30 * 3) to the left of the front edge and 1.5' (sin 30 * 3) to its rear, and 21.5' to the rear and 2.5981' to the left of the camera or (again from Pythagoras) 21.6564' from the camera straight line.  This makes its apparent height 20/21.6564 (.9235) of the front vertical edge.  Similarly the now visible right rear edge is .9193 of the height of the front edge.

Looking at the horizontal edges, while at first they were parallel, the first shift made them converge very slightly, and the rotation made them shorten and converge more.  When looking straight on, the horizontal edges are 8.5783° wide, when shifted they are only 8.5308° wide.  So they look to be .9945 as long (virtually the same.)  The rotation makes the 3' side have an angular width of 6.8903° or .8032 as long as when straight and centered.

The rest of this works the same way.  To include viewing from above or below center, you draw more triangles and do the math again.  I don't see how there can be an exact single formula for this although with enough data, it could be done mathematically.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2009, 04:03:45 PM »
Here's Seeppot:



I am going to have to get one of those hats!!!
 

Does any one have any idea how to convert the angled base line measurements of the base of the mortar to 90-270 degree horizontal and 0-180 verticl measurements?


    We have done exactly what you are trying to do several times on complicated and large seacoast carriages.  At first we found and tried all sorts of formulas and not one worked consistently, perhaps we did not find the correct one.  However you can do this very simply, without knowing the focal length or distance from camera to object, etc.

        First, as a control, find one feature on the mortar bed of which you know the full size dimension.  In this case it would be the bore size at 8.0".

        Second,  find the actual, proportional, length of the closest, vertical, front, edge of the bed.  We use the same direct proportion formula each time we do this, so we do not become confused.  Your format of this formula can differ from ours.  Below is how we do it:


 1         2      3      4           (precedence of factors in the proportional formula)

8.0" : .893" = X : 1.440"       (actual bore size is to measured distance on photo of bore size equals X is to measured distance on photo
                                        of the closest, vertical, front edge)

1    x    4    /    2 =  X          (precedence of factors that we use to solve this problem)

8.0" x 1.44 / .893 =  X          (solving the problem)

        X  =  12.90"                (the solution)


     Factors 2 and 4 will probably have different values based on the size of your computer photo copy.  That's O.K., the proportion will be the same.  And NOW TO THE FUN part of this project.  follow the steps below and you will create a very, very accurate duplicate of the original object.


One......Tape or glue your mortar bed photo copy to a stiff, flat, piece of cardboard.   

Two......Have a family member or friend attach a three foot piece of 2X2 lumber to a six foot piece of 2x4 at 90 deg. at the same height as your photo copy when the 6 footer is held vertically.  This construction is called the baseline set-up.

Three....Cut a piece of 2x2 to 12.90" and then glue it to the end of your 36" piece of 2x2.  With your 36" piece horizontal, the 12.90" piece should be sticking up from the right-hand end.

Four......Hold your photo out at arm's length.  Have your helper twist the 6 footer around the vertical axis until the depth angle of the front surface of the 36" 2x2  matches the depth angle in your photo.  The depth angle rotates around the vertical axis.

Five......Have you helper move the baseline set-up away from you or closer to you so the length of the line on the photo matches the height of your 12.90" 2x2 on the baseline set-up which represents the closest, front, edge of the mortar bed.  Now the full size model is at the correct distance from you and you can construct any other line or edge on the drawing that you need using the same methods.

That's about it.  It is much simpler to do than explain or to read and understand these steps.

                                    What about the accuracy of this method??

     By actual measurement, we found that the baseline dimensions of our prototype of the first 100 Pdr. Parrott Rifle, M1861 that we built in August of 2003 was proportionally within 1.25" in 14 feet.  We learned this when we visited the original in Georgia in November of that year and ran a 25 foot tape measure along the top rail of the chassis. We could hardy believe that it worked that well, but it certainly did.

Try it.  It's fun to do and you will learn a lot about perspective and proportions too.

Mike and Tracy
     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2009, 04:30:35 PM »
Thanks guys, memories from a college class taken in 1989 and or 1970 are fuzzy. You guys have given me something to work with.

I  am lucky, I have two known measurements--trunnion and bore.  


Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2009, 01:35:02 AM »
Douglas
I have done some digging around and found these drawings. They are not to clear but you can still make out the details. I was trying to get drawings with dimensions but no luck up to date. I hope this can help you.

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2009, 01:38:45 AM »
Sorry meant to attached more pictures before I hit the enter button, so here are more pictures.

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2009, 01:42:44 AM »
Attached is a Photo of some soldiers depoying a L.S.Mortar.

Pieter

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2009, 02:09:52 AM »
Pieter,

This is Great stuff!!! Thank you!

Now I know what I am looking for.

Douglas

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2009, 02:22:41 AM »
Here are some pictures of the 13" L.S. Mortar Traveling Carriage.
Pieter

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2009, 02:51:16 AM »
Pieter,

Do you have teh front and rear deatail of the 8 inch?

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2009, 06:47:03 AM »
Douglas

No unfortunatly not. That is why I posted the 13 inch drawings as well, Just to give you a little more work ;D, I think, hope, the 8 inch is just a scaled down example of the 13". Sorry.
Pieter

Offline carronader

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
  • Gender: Male
  • What? me worry.
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2009, 07:13:17 AM »
PM thanks for posting.....haggis boilers are of no interest.......but the carriages........solid gold.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline PM Fourie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Boer Artillery
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2009, 05:53:33 PM »
Corrander

Not haggis boilers  ;D but cleats for the various shot and shells.