Author Topic: Why?  (Read 4077 times)

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Offline Aussie steve

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Why?
« on: July 23, 2009, 02:14:30 AM »
I have been reading up on a lot of forums for African hunting both DG and plains game, and I want to get all the info I can. I have noticed a trend which is growing stronger, of people taking their favorite blackpowder round (typicaly a .45/70) and proclaiming to all and sundry that they have a perfectly adequate DG rifle. The common one is a .45/70 loaded with some magic bullet or special powder is eaqual to a .458 win mag. There have also been threads about 45/70's Vs all manner of different medium bores .375 H&H and .416 Rigby to name two. They all end up showing how much better the .45/70 is, and how hard lead slugs will shoot through 1 large hill, three ele, two lions over the moon, and still take out the old man buff at 1,647 meters whilst grouping into 0.25 MOA with open sights.

The dia of the .45/70 above the rim is 0.5055" and the case is 2.105" long, where as the .458 win is 0.5126" above the belt and its 2.5" long. That to me is a fair bit of powder space the win mag has over the .45/70, seeing as the .458 Lott only has about 0.3" of extra case length than the 458 win mag and is a world away power wise. I am wondering why sombody would want to take a levergun on a DG hunt, the hunt will be expensive enough so why not shell out some more hardearned and get a propper rifle for the job at hand, rather than take a rat power practice load for a proven DG round and compare it to a barrel bursting load in a .45/70 and say the .45/70 has the goods?

Who are behind these posts and what is the motive? Are these people who claim the .45/70 to be eaqual to the (marginal) 458 win mag hunters of dangerous game? Armchair ballistians, dreamers, bullet makers drumming up business, or people who cant fathom that o'l betsy just isnt the bee's knees for everything, and need to try and convince others (and themselves) that it is?


Cheers

Steve

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Why?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 03:34:13 AM »
Yes
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Why?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 08:05:49 AM »
"Yes" :D

JJ, I immediately thought about you when I started reading this post.   ;D

I have a question I asked another fellow, who seemed pretty experienced in the DG area, in the 45-70 vs. 375 thread I think it was, but he never answered me.  Maybe he thought I was trying to start an argument... I don't know...  :-\

Anyway, I would like your opinion.  What would you consider the minimum adequate, and also the optimal, velocities for a 500 gr. bullet fired from a .458 caliber cartridge for use against DG?
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Offline rex6666

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Re: Why?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 09:02:00 AM »
Yes
it jump starts a quite forum, but guess i missed the black powder part.
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Offline efremtags

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Re: Why?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 02:27:11 AM »
This is debated to death, but it seems that the different ides never really listen to each other.

There is a difference between an adequate hunting round and an adequate DG stopping round. They both have a place and mixing the 2 causes arguments.

a 45-70 is not a DG stopper. The gold standard for a DG stopper is the 470 NE (2150FPS 500Gr 5000ftlb). If is your gun/ammo is not at least this, it is not considered a stopper. The advantage of a stopper, it will drop anything that walks inside of 75 yards. For some animals, that means a near miss will usually produce enough concussive effect to slow things down a bit. That's when you see elephant head shot but miss the brain, but they still fall long enough for several follow up shots that will hit.

The gold standard for adequate hunting round is the 375 HH (2300 FPS 300GR 4000ftlb). This is the legal minimum.

Now the confusion is the 45-70 is a true big bore (above 40 cal). But since it lacks case capacity, it can neither drive a heavy bullet fast, nor a light bullet with a high enough BC to make it compete with smaller dia calibers.

Is the 45-70 suitable for DG, well in my opinion it is on par with a 375 inside of 100 yards. Look at factory ammo comparison:

45-70
Buffalo bore 350 gr. J.F.N. (2100 fps / M.E. 3500 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun, likely 100-150fps in a 22 - 24" Bar.)
Grizzly Ammo 400 gr. PUNCH  W.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3600 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun, likely 100-150fps in a 22-24" bar.)

300HH
Federal 300 gr TBX (2470 fps, ME 4064 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)
Federal 300 gr TB solid (2470 fps, ME 3966 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)

I find it difficult to argue that the 45-70 is too dissimilar to work adequate on 3 of the big 6 (buff, lion,leop). I would argue a 375 is no more suited on hippo/rhino/elephant than the 45-70 with body shots. I do not think it would matter on rhino/hippo head shots with either as they have relatively unimpressive skulls compare to an elephant.

The 404, 416 - 450/400NE class  are a stop gap, more power than the 375 class, more controllable, better trajectory than 458 - 500 class.

I can see the appeal of not buying a new gun for a hunt. 458 guns run minimum 1500+ scope. Ammo is over 70 a box. Anythin larger is even more out of control. Price out 470 ammo from federal lately, and that shiny new Krieghoff will set you back the price of a hunt.

Offline Aussie steve

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Re: Why?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 03:23:55 AM »
I have shot a .45/70 next to my .416 rigby into wet sand ( not a real animal I know) but the Rigby with 400 softs at 2600 fps penetrates so much further, leaves a bigger cavity and out penetrates even my .577 NE with 750 grain softs at 2150 fps, admitedly the .577 did make a HUGE cavity, and penetrate about 2 feet whilst mushrooming to over 1" dia. The softs used here wern't woodleighs or any other bonded ones, just plain cup and cores, but I was never able to dig far enouh in to find a .416 400 grainer, and  was able to go about 3 feet as best I can judge, and with no jacket/lead fragments to sugest bullet break up.

I just cant see where a .45/70 is going to get the velocity and sectional density needed for deep penetration on DG if it cant do with a 400 grainer what the .458 can do with a 500 bullet, except at the price of seriously high pressures and lever actions dont seem to like those pressures. It might have the energy, but so does my .340 wby mag (near 5000 ft lbs) and its not even close to a DG rifle, much less a stopper.

Maybe those who do the posting are just trolling, looking to say somthing contriversial to start a fight on the forum?

Steve

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Why?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2009, 06:35:00 AM »
Being backed up by a PH with a more than adequite rifle can make you a little less nervous about your own choice in arms. A second thought is that perhaps DG don't have to be killed with super powered rifles, choosing the right time and place to apply the bullet is an important factor.

Dangerous game are routinely taken with archery equipment. You need to learn to work within the capabilities of the weapon you have chosen.

After that first shot and the game has decided you need killin', well that is no time to be carryin, a switch. You'll be a wanting all the fire power you can find, and a Marlin 1895 would feel mighty small with ol' Dugga boy bearing down on you. This is the camp I'm in. Just barely killed means as little to me as just barely pregnant. 
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Offline efremtags

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Re: Why?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2009, 07:32:03 AM »
Aussie,

you have to keep thing relative for a fair comparison.

The 416 is a pretty powerful cartridge (400 2600FPS 5000ftlb). Comparing to a 45/70 means little. What bullet and velocity combo did you shoot. Some slow hard casts can outpenetrate the NE SP, but that does not take into aaccount wound channel and lethality.

A fair comparison would be to use comparable bullets loaded to best potential velovity and compare penetration and wound channel results. One being better does not render the other as beign insufficient necessarily. Any one criteria (energy, penetration, bullet diameter, velocity) on its own means little as the bullet is a system of these things.  A good bullet in a modest caliber will outperform a bad bullet in a great caliber.

The 340 Wby is an example of apples and oranges. The 340 derives energy strictly from velocity leaving a lot up to the bullet to perform at the fringe of the operation spectrum. I tried to make the comparison apples to apples by using the 375HH as the reference inside 75 yards. I have not see anyone make a legitimate argument using that as the basis for comparison.

I just watched a buffalo hunt where the president fo TX Huntco plugged a 600NE. Based on that, should I believe that is the minimum acceptable caliber for DG??

What gets my goat is when people call the 45/70 class of weapons a stunt. I see the polularity rise of pistols, muzzleloader and archery for DG. While I personaly would not use this class for elephant (If I could afford to hunt Elephant, I would buy a 458 Lott with a Leupold VX7 1.5-5), I would not call it any more irresponsible than using the 375HH. As EQ stated, using the weapon within it's limits is responsible hunting.

Offline Rusty~Gunn

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Re: Why?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2010, 03:23:03 PM »
The thing I find silly is the comments something like "armchair hunter" of simular. To distinguish between those that actually hunted in Africa and those that have yet to do so. They insinuate that, because they been there, then it makes their opinions that much more worthy then those that have not. As if having actual experience makes their opinion worth something higher.
Bull crap. Big pile of bull crap.
There was a time that even Selous hadn't hunted in Africa. There was a time when Ruark hadn't hunted Africa. There was a time when Selby hadn't hunted there.  There was a time then JJ Hack hadn't hunted in Africa either.
The common thread of the "been there, done that" crew is that at one time they hadn't been there either. They read what they could to learn about it (self-educating). Did they hold opinions on African hunting before they hunted there? Sure, same as others. Just because you "got there" doesn't make you any different then those that have yet to hunt in Africa. You were "one of us" at one point.
Your opinions "back then" mimic ours now. We read about hunting in Africa, and form opinions based on other's experience. Same as you did back then. We don't need to hunt in Africa to learn what will work and what won't. We can study other's (even studying those that currently have hunted there) and form opinions, same as you did "back then".

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: Why?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2010, 06:52:32 PM »
All DG has been taken with a bow and 44mag handguns but I would not try it. My 45/70 has taken brown bear as well as any DG round out there but bears are more like cats and not buffalo or elephant. For respect of the game I would use what the PH said I needed and if he came to Alaska I would let him borrow my 45/70 a good thin skinned DG getter

Offline mk454

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Re: Why?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2010, 06:12:17 AM »
i think alot has to do with bullet type.  getting into handgunning has taught me many things and one of the main is that the old style round nose solid is a poor poor design, it works especially when the rifle gets really really powerful but to make an analogy, a 454 casull is a marginal at best even for whitetails if you use a round nost bullet but flatten an elk with a good quality expandable (i.e. FA jfp or a barnes) and the round nose have a very very poor wound channel and i've seen javelina get up and run with and never be recovered with a 45 colt round nose fmj bullet.  i've flattened a buffalo with my casull that wasn't dropped any faster with a  375 HH an hour later on the same hunt.  another couple hours later, a 45/70 was used and if i recorded the hunt you couldn't told me which animal was shot with what based on the reaction.  that result was only found using appropriate bullets. so, a 45/70 is fine with appropriate bullets and has been shown to be so.  a 458 wm is an entirely different animal as far as penetration when used with a good flat point, like a barnes banded solid or a punch bullet that holds together well.  i have always wondered what results one would get with the old nitro express rounds and a flat pointed bullet.  it's like the weatherby rounds being pounded on b/c bullet technology wasnt' up to the velocity, now it's a very very different situation.  and that's not an armchair ballistician point of view, it's just what i and my other hunting buds have seen with our own eyes.
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Offline 243shooter

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Re: Why?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2010, 01:48:57 PM »
i have read alot of the posts here, along with other materials, and would like to start by saying i'm just a mechanic/farmer from wisconsin and have never traveled anywhere to hunt (but i do alot of dreaming). anyhow, the thing i don't understand is: is african game that tough? maybe it is. if i was to tell somebody that i was going after american bison with a 45/70 or a 30-06 they wouldn't even blink, but if somebody posts something on here about 45/70 and buffalo, everybody acts like he's crazy. is a cape buffalo that much tougher than a bison? i'm not trying to stir the pot at all, i just don't know. around here lots of deer were killed with 25/20 (which is kinda underpowered) and the old 30-30 is a great deer round, but it seems in africa anything smaller than a 375 h&h is a pea shooter. in north america 375 (from what i've read) seems to be at the top of the sectrum, even for brown and polar bear. from what i've read it seems to be normal to hunt deer sized animals with a 375 in africa. if i am ever lucky enough to hunt africa i would probably buy a 375 or something bigger. so, inform me, i know nothing about africa but what i read or see on tv.
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Why?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 02:18:42 PM »
Is african game that tough?

No.

If i was to tell somebody that i was going after american bison with a 45/70 or a 30-06 they wouldn't even blink, but if somebody posts something on here about 45/70 and buffalo, everybody acts like he's crazy. is a cape buffalo that much tougher than a bison?

Going after a Bison is something like going after a cow.  If a Cape Buffalo doesn't like you and/or is wounded it will REALLY try to kill you.  Cape buffalo have to defend themselves against lions unlike the American Bison which as an adult doesn't have too many natural predators.

not trying to stir the pot at all, i just don't know. around here lots of deer were killed with 25/20 (which is kinda underpowered) and the old 30-30 is a great deer round, but it seems in africa anything smaller than a 375 h&h is a pea shooter. in north america 375 (from what i've read) seems to be at the top of the sectrum, even for brown and polar bear. from what i've read it seems to be normal to hunt deer sized animals with a 375 in africa. if i am ever lucky enough to hunt africa i would probably buy a 375 or something bigger. so, inform me, i know nothing about africa but what i read or see on tv.

First of all, you probably are trying to stir the pot.

I have no idea where you got the idea that Africans hunt deer sized animals with a 375 H&H Magnum.  They aren't that dumb.  Ammo for the 375 H&H Magnum is expensive so Africans will use a lesser cartridge if possible and if available.  Guess what the cartridge of choice is for one PH I know that does a LOT of culling of animals such as Blue Wildebeest, Zebra, etc?  That would be the 22-250.  The myth that you need a 375 H&H Magnum is self generated by hunters mostly from the U.S.A.  If you actually read the web sites of various purveyors of safaris for plains game, the recommendation you'll uniformly get is to bring the rifle you usually use for deer and are comfortable with.

On the other hand, when you go to Africa there are weight constraints on what you can bring.  You are only allowed to take 3 firearms out of the U.S.A. without an export permit and the various African countries have limits on how much ammo and how many guns you may bring into their country.  For these reasons, you'll not be able to take a whole arsenal with you so will have to choose wisely.  A 375 H&H Magnum makes an excellent choice because of its reasonable recoil, accuracy and range and because of the fact that it can do it all from small animals up to the big with no problem.

I also believe estrogen levels are higher in the U.S.A.  Africans shoot the big guns without complaint while here there is a lot of pissin and moaning about the recoil.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Why?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 02:52:42 PM »
243 Shooter here is a good explanation of the differences in game. Not having been there or hunted there you would not understand. So try this and see if it makes any sense.

Although this is certainly not a scientific or legal description, I have seen some differences that I think do stand up, or at least justify some further thought. You only need to do this job for a few weeks and listen to the comments made by the hunters with you. I won’t type dozens of them but comments like this from my hunters for example:

“I’ve killed a lot of big game but I’ve never seen an animal hit that hard stagger begin to fall and then run off requiring several hours to track up and still need another shot.”

For starters, many of the animals in Africa live in herds. When a single herd animal spooks and runs so will the whole herd at the same instant. They don't perk up to see if it's the idiot of the group that is just being stupid again, they trust even the most insecure and jumpy member of the herd when it spooks. This results in the whole group bolting through the bush to crash through branches and trees somewhat blindly.



Would anyone debate the will to live difference between a cape buffalo and a North American Bison? I've seen some rather unruly and wild bison, but they are the exception, buffalo on the other hand are almost all living on the edge!

Take for example wildebeest, zebra, and gemsbok for example. These are arguably the tougher PG species to flatten, and the tougher ones to stop once hit and running off. These animals have very thick rubber like skin. It's far more elastic then an Elk, Deer, Bear, sheep, etc. This puncture resistant stretchy hide will seal up holes and stop the blood flow with extreme precision. A Deer or Pronghorn will have explosive exits from a typical hunting rifle, yet similiar sized game in Africa may fall and require you to look for several seconds to even find the entry or exit holes. Same with the Kudu, they are very soft and much like the construction of a typical Whitetail deer, just much larger in size. You can see the bullet holes in them very easily. 

Why is that? In my opinion it's due to the kinds of trees, and the habit of running blind with the herd. The dozens of species of almost lethal thorn trees, and the frequency of these herd animals crashing through the bush may have caused them over 1000's of years to develop this type of skin that will seal up punctures, or be more resistive of punctures. Giraffe is clearly designed this way. Once you have skinned the chest of a Giraffe and seen that 3-4" thick "cartilage like" skin with Acacia thorns embedded into it you can see why!

There is a desire stronger then life itself for many of these herd animals that they can never be left behind of the group.

Compare this to the soft, and quite fragile Kudu. An animal so large, yet so easy to kill, and very little will to live. Kudu have very soft skin, and are built very frail when compared to herd animals. 

A Kudu, much like a whitetail deer will carefully pick and choose its path through the bush, often not making much noise. They can also vanish like a ghost, leaping and turning to avoid any contact with the bush. Compare that to the wildebeest which will crash through everything in the way letting you hear them depart for a 100 yards or until out of earshot! 

Is it simply coincidence that the crashing herd mentality of the wildebeest makes it so much harder to drop and follow up then the soft lone fragile pick the path Kudu bull? I think not.

There are always comments about African game being harder to kill. Maybe that's not 100% true, however they are absolutely harder to find dead. Finding a single elk, deer, bear, or sheep is a much less difficult undertaking then finding an equally hit African animal that lives in a large herd.

As I was taught in school, read the whole page not just the first word. There is much more to this puzzle then simply saying African game is tougher then North American game.

A poorly hit lone Bull elk is a tough animal that can travel a long way. They also live in a habitat with so much natural ground litter and rock that follow ups can be complicated. Mountain goats and moose are also quite difficult to make die and drop quickly. However when shot your looking for a single animal, not a massive herd that has created a dust bowl and left the scene with all the tracking evidence covered in dust and sand. With the dozens if not thousands of tracks to follow how do you know which animal you shot?  Has he peeled off from the group as he became sick and you have tracked right past him and followed the herd? Once you find the herd you scan them all for blood, nothing found? Hours have now gone by. Your animal is either in the group, or you have passed it by and need to start over. If this happens at last light will you have much of a trophy remaining in the morning? In North America the population of predators is greatly reduced. Odds are fair or better that if you find the animal the next day it will be fine. In Africa with a low temp of 75 degrees at night it will be hair slipped, and with the massive populations of predators, odds are low it will be in one piece.

 

Just the blanket statement here is not realistic. There are some very tough species in both places. However having hunted for my living in both places, and seen quite a number of animals harvested in both places. Well I've struggled more to find well hit game in Africa, then I have in North America. There are however lots more species there as well. The debate will never be apples and apples, it would be better to just pick a specific animal you’re interested in comparing.

With the diverse species, distances, dangerous game, and of course the blood tracking that will be needed, the larger bore cartridges stack the deck in your favor by a large margin. Those under .308 diameter will require the greatest time consumed in follow ups, and the greatest risks for lost game. With a 7-14 day hunt, you sure don’t want to be spending any more time then needed on tracking and follow up. This is especially true when hunting two on one. If your partner is searching for lost game, you’re not hunting either! 

Plenty of folks make the mistake of comparing cartridges used in North America for hunting with what they perceive the needs in Africa to be. I wish I had some recorded statements from the hundred or so people who have said to me. “Wow you were right about the conditions and the choice of the gun” I’m not special in this regard, just observant. We have seen the struggles and the success for many years. It just comes from experience.

I’ve not known a single PH in my whole career that sees this any differently. Bigger bullets make finding game not only easier but possible in very poor conditions. Higher Velocity bullets crumple game faster with body shots then slower bullets. There are without question exceptions to these comments, but by and large these are rules to live by with hunting bullets. When you have big diameter and high velocity you have a magic wand of death. Probably why cartridges like the 375HH have been around so long with such an amazing history of success.
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Offline elmer

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Re: Why?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2010, 04:17:17 AM »
Very well said JJ.

In the Texas when I go out to hunt I am hunting for a specific animal. There are limited other animals of opportunity so my 30-06 or 7mm-08 fills the bill. My one trip (so far) to Africa I could be hunting for Impala and get an opportunity on a multitude of species. By carrying a .375 H&H I was equipped to handle anything that was in my budget and then some.

Besides there is definitely a cool factor when sitting around a fire at deer camp and talking about stalks and hunting with a classic African caliber instead of a "deer caliber".
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Why?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2010, 04:22:51 AM »
A bison is nothing like a cow, but even milk cows kill lots of folks.

The .45-70 is enough with the right bullet.  The 7X57 is enough with the right bullet.
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: Why?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2010, 04:33:26 AM »
A .22 is enough with the right placement.

A knife on a stick is the right choice with the proper placement.
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Offline 243shooter

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Re: Why?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2010, 05:38:34 AM »
jjhack, thank you very much for the response, very informative, i don't claim to know anything about anything, i just like to read about what's going on in other parts of the world, i also enjoy reading the forum about hunting in australia, although i'll probably never go there either. thanks also to grumulkin, your response was also informative even if it was a little condescending, like i said, i don't claim to know anything about anything, the reason i ask questions is because i don't know the answers.
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Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Why?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2010, 03:06:12 AM »
For those of us who don't know and those that do......

I do believe in what JJ is saying, I truly do.  Having seen and done more then I, but I believe there is a lot of confusion out there based on several things. 

1) Ammo manufacturers. Here is the numbers from the Federal Website on the 458 Winchester: 400 grain at 2250 fps. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=350

Barnes reloading has this on the 45-70: 400 grains at 2186 fps.

Less then 100 fps separate them.  Yet one is listed as a DG round and one is not.  The same comparison can be made with the 45-70 and the 375 when looking online.  The numbers on these two are the same, 300 grains at 2500 fps or better.  Now I know there IS NO COMPARISON when real life experience is involved, but these numbers are very misleading........  That was the reason for my other post last week.

2) Lore and Legend.  This is very hard to measure yet when we deal with what we have read, some great shots have been made with smaller calibers and they are the ones we remember, not the "everyday" shots the rest of us make.

3) The BIGGEST variable of them all, the game in question.  I have hit whitetails with an 30-06 that have gone nowhere but down, and I have hit some that run 100 yards.  Same bullet, same gun, same place I hit them, yet they run.

Just my 2 cents......



Ron


Offline JJHACK

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Re: Why?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2010, 04:10:09 AM »
GLR, nobody in my 18 years in Africa as a PH has ever used a 400 grain bullet in the 458 win mag, to my knowledge. NOBODY! The 500 grain bullet is the gold standard.

The 500 grain bullet will get 2150 without any problem from the 458win mag. Although I have used a 450 TSX in the 458Lott with exceptional results, it's 100% weight retention additional length and phenomenal Penetration made up for the lack of weight. They also fed like magic with the spire point in my rifle.

There may be somebody choosing to hunt/backup clients for DG with a 400 grain bullet in the 458win mag. However I have not heard of them or met them in my career.



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Offline don heath

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Re: Why?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2010, 04:32:27 AM »
Do the maths.....Art Alphin and I did all the actual data collection on the elephant culls back in 1983-87.

multiply SD x velocity....and you want a figure of over 670 to be safe on a frontal. You want a figure of over 700 to be safe on an angle shot through the tusk.

Sure, flat nosed bullets will 'improve' on the penetration results Art collected (he was fixated on round nosed) and the flat nosed bullets we used in parks were too soft and mushroomed a bit, reducing penetration...so a good barnes banded will help but you cannot do too much to alter the laws of physics...E= MC2 - despite all the latest research ;)

Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Why?
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2010, 04:56:24 AM »
GLR, nobody in my 18 years in Africa as a PH has ever used a 400 grain bullet in the 458 win mag, to my knowledge. NOBODY! The 500 grain bullet is the gold standard.

I know, but you see where the problem lies.  You have ammunition companies telling one thing, and folks like yourself saying something else (from experience).  I do believe what you are saying, without a doubt.  My 375 at home is there in part from what you and I have talked about, here, over the years.  I just can't believe the misinformation or lack of experience in marketing this stuff.

Ron

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Why?
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2010, 05:20:28 PM »
How can marketing surprise you?

Marketing is the most powerful business on earth.

How do you think Obama got elected?
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Offline joshua 35 whelen

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Re: Why?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2010, 06:11:03 PM »
I am wondering if the 460 Smith and Wesson out of a 24 inch barrel will work for Africa?  It has been cronographed from a 24 inch barrel near 3,000fps with the Hornady 200 grain factory ammo.  It is possible to get 2700 to 2800fps with a 300 grain bullet from a 24" barrel.  Interesting cartridge it is.  Hemingway killed Cape Buffalo with a 30-06 and wrote he liked it better than the 375 H&H.  The newest Nosler reloading book gives a good story about the 45-70 in Africa using a strong action and good loads.  My custom 24" T/C 460 smith is on the way with a swarovski 3-10-42 rail mount scope to go on it.  I will test it on black bear and deer this year and see if it will be up to larger game but to be honest a 300grn bullet doing 2700-2800fps will do what you need done on anything.  Barnes makes a 275grn for it and you could load it heavier if needed.  Short of just a mine is better than yours because I said so, what are we really looking for to kill Dangerous Game?   

Offline don heath

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Re: Why?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2010, 08:33:35 PM »
Kill dangerous game? I guided a kid who shot elephant with a 30-06 and several hunters who have taken elephant and buff with .58 cal BP 'traditional' Muzzel loaders. I have shot both elephant and Buff with my M58 (4" .41 mag)

To kill when I set you up on a broad side or complete frontal is easy. To kill on a poor angle shot on ele when you have to shoot through the tusk or the zygomatic arch is what seperates true 'dangerous game' calibers from things you can use.

The rule of thumb is - Sectional Density of .3 at 2300fps. A SD of .340 at 2100fps...a 400grn .458 cal bullet has an SD of .27 so you need to throw that at 2500fps for it to be reliable. A 275grn Barnes solid from a 460 S&W will need to be going at 3000fps to work- but at that speed brass mushrooms...so you need a tungsten bullet or 4000fps....

Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Why?
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2010, 02:43:06 AM »
How can marketing surprise you?

Marketing is the most powerful business on earth.

How do you think Obama got elected?

Life and death, rather then taxes and civil liberties.  So what you said earlier is the rule of thumb, 500 grains at 2150 fps.  Tell me, I believe in the past you have had experience with large bear in Alaska.  Would the 400 at 2186 be enough for upset bears, the big ones?

Ron
 

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Why?
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2010, 03:53:01 AM »
Bears are way more fragile then big ungulates and pachyderms. There is no comparison!

The 375HH is the best all around bear rifle I have ever seen, many guides I worked with tried the 338win mag and shortly went back to the 375HH. There are things to consider in the design of the rifle as much as the cartridge. These bears are very frequently hunted near salt water. Having a rifle with an action that is 100% reliable after being exposed to salt water on a weekly or even daily basis without the time to clean it perfectly every day would be a critical choice and an equal consideration to the choice. I've seen more fail to fire, feed, and eject hunting bears in South East Alaska then all the other game I have seen hunted in my whole 30 year career combined. This for me was one of the opinion forming experiences where CRF is concerned. I would not own a Push Feed for this work, no way no how. Way too many bad experiences with hunting clients PF rifles in SE Alaska after a week of saltwater, rain and mud every day.

Velocity is also another thing that improves the stunning impacts on a large predator like a bear more then the shear bone crunching bullet weight. Bears and lions would be similar in the choice of a firearm. A 300 mag/ 338 win mag is a fine rifle to kill either one, but maybe not so good to look for one that has been wounded or that you're tracking for follow up. From there the requirements are different. So if it were hunting the options with a good shot are different then for follow up work.
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Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: Why?
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2010, 09:37:13 AM »
Most of the guides I know in SE alaska like the 458 where most all shooting is well under a hundred yards. Many like the 45/70 but when guideing carry the 458. If a client gets messed up folks can't say the guide didn't use enough gun

Offline don heath

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Re: Why?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2010, 02:45:09 AM »
Never seen a bear...but for lion I want an impact velocity over 2280fps. I would rather carry my 9,3x62 or a .375 H&H against a wounded lion in thick cover (assuming appropriate bullets) than a .458 win with regular 510 grn softs.  But lion are quite small- a big male will reach 550lbs and most where I am from will be 450lbs max.

Buffalo start to notice 'power', shock', whatever you want to call it when you get to .505 gibbs and bigger. .460 weatherby doesn't make the grade for 'grabbing  a buff's attention'.

I have never seen a rifle - up to 4 bore- impress an elephant. the 20mm MG 151 on the K cars surely smaked them down though. Since I cannot get a license for the Denel 20mm rifle and don't like humping a 32lb gun, I will stick to the simple solution of shooting straight with a round that gives adequate penetration to reach the brain from any angle


Offline rem308

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Re: Why?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2010, 07:29:44 PM »
A reasonable discussion that has not degenerated into a silly argument for a change.

I chose a 375H&H magnum in Sako Kodiak with a Trijicon 1.25-4 scope.  The 375 H&H chosen because it has a lot of history, not just the latest fad, has excellent bullet selection, not to expensive and has reliable performance.  The scope was chosen because they are rugged, accurate and allows accurate shooting in a variety of situations, ie out to 300m with big game, fast target aquisition up close, low light etc.  The Sako because they are reliable, well balanced, last forever, stainless steel means rust etc is not so much of an issue.

The whole idea of the package is to be reliable and to maximise the chance of the biggest variable (me) not stuffing up a shot on a buffalo and getting a big horn stuck in my guts.  When an injured animal (DG) wants to kill you, he will take some convincing that you are not worth it, dont want to be messing about shooting sticks off trees, trying to clear a miss feed, flinching etc when it hits the fan.

Takes a cool head to stand and fight (to possibly the death) and not run away.