BH209 velocities

[grouse]

One thing i have learned for sure, velocities change from one zip code to the next. Here are my reports in Butler Pa.

All powders are measured by volume

Knight Vision 50cal.

250grn bullet

125grns = 2070avg
140grns= 2315

200grn bullet

125grns= 2150
135grns= 2340

Knight Disc Elite 45cal

185grn Bullet

120grns=2309
130grns=2362
140grns=2454
150grns=2526

200grn Bullet

135grns=2491
140grns=2523

Not done yet. I will add more guns and velocities later.

[gunrac]

Thinkin of trying BH 209, for different reason's. I'm just down to my last couple ounce's of the RS.

In my Encore speed won't kill. I don't like thumped either. Not that this data won't help someone else, it does not do a thing for me.

I'm shootin 240 HP/XTP w/a green Harvester ribbed sabot and 90gr. vol. of the RS powder. I've tryed on different occasion's to kick up my speed just for s's and g's. Once I get up to 1800+ my accuracy goes way off. I've found if I stay around a 1635 avg., I can get a 1" to 2" group at 100yd. anytime. Almost boring.

It's very seldom that I'd have a chance to take a hunting shot of 150yd. in my area. I have taken a deer at 140yd. just last year. {yes, I even impressed myself}

I'm just curios to how many grains of the BH 209 to get to my sweet spot of 1635fps. Read quite a bit on how much cleaner it is to use. That is the plus I'm really lookin for.

 I was brought up, { if it works, don't try an fix it.} But, with a recipe change I will have a good reason to do a little more shootin.

Lookin for a little comparison info from guy's that have used both  powders.

_______________________________________________________________

After the above thread, I went to there site. Seems it may use less amount of powder to achive what I'm after and they claim it is considerable cleaner.
   
Now the big problem. Man that stuff is expensive! 34 bucks + tax. I can buy the Select, 12 bucks cheeper. I'm going to have to think about that.

[Keith Lewis]

Thinkin of trying BH 209, for different reason's. I'm just down to my last couple ounce's of the RS.

In my Encore speed won't kill. I don't like thumped either. Not that this data won't help someone else, it does not do a thing for me.


I'm just curios to how many grains of the BH 209 to get to my sweet spot of 1635fps. Read quite a bit on how much cleaner it is to use. That is the plus I'm really lookin for.

 I was brought up, { if it works, don't try an fix it.} But, with a recipe change I will have a good reason to do a little more shootin.

Lookin for a little comparison info from guy's that have used both  powders.

_______________________________________________________________

After the above thread, I went to there site. Seems it may use less amount of powder to achive what I'm after and they claim it is considerable cleaner.
   
Now the big problem. Man that stuff is expensive! 34 bucks + tax. I can buy the Select, 12 bucks cheeper. I'm going to have to think about that.


You may find that with a different powder the exact speed that your rifle performs best is not the same. There is a relationship as to how fast the bullet accelerates as well as what the final velocity is. You will have to do some experimenting to determine if BH209 gives the same performance at the same velocity as RS.

[gunrac]

You may find that with a different powder the exact speed that your rifle performs best is not the same. There is a relationship as to how fast the bullet accelerates as well as what the final velocity is. You will have to do some experimenting to determine if BH209 gives the same performance at the same velocity as RS.


That's kinda what I been thinkin. The more I think about it, I'm going to go ahead and try a lb. I need a new challenge and have nearly 200 rds. to get it right.

[encore3006]

 

[grouse]

BH209 might not like 125grns but Knight Does.

[Lawful Larry]

If I remember right, doesn't  the manufacturer put load data on the bottle and 120 is the max for bullets less then 300 grs and 100 grs. max for any bullets more then 300 grs.?  I suppose you could go over te recommended load, but that  would be a little risky.

[Busta]

Larry,

It says this on the back of the BH209 bottle.

"For bullet/sabot combinations up to 300 grains, DO NOT exceed 120 volumetric units of Blackhorn 209"

"For bullet/sabot combinations over 300 grains, or conical bullets over 300 grains, check the blackhorn209.com website for approved loads"


It also says this on their website.

"LOAD DATA FOR BLACKHORN 209

This information is intended to be used as a reference. Each individual must determine what is the best and safest load for their equipment. The loads described on this site were generated at the ballistics test facilities of Western Powders, Inc. in accordance with SAAMI (Shooting Arms and Ammunition Institute) guidelines. All loads were fired through test barrels and individual results fired through different firearms may vary. Shooters are cautioned to read and follow safe loading practices as indicated by your firearm manufacturer."


http://www.blackhorn209.com/loaddata/


Check out the 350 gr Hornady FPB, the 385 gr Hornady Great Plains, and the 444 gr Powerbelt.
http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/b209muzzleloaderdata.pdf


http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/brochure.pdf



Now with that said, if you check Hodgdon's site, they have never recommended more than 2 Pellets (100 gr for the .45 and .50 cals, 120 gr for the 54 cal). The rifle manufacturers are the ones saying it is safe to shoot 3 Pellet or 150 gr loose powder charges.

From the Hodgdon website.

"MAXIMUM LOAD WARNING45 and 50 CALIBER RIFLE:
45 Caliber Pellets come in one size: 50 grain
50 Caliber Pellets come in two (2) sizes:
50 grain volume equivalent which equals 50 grains of loose powder by volume.
30 grain volume equivalent which equals 30 grains of loose powder by volume.
The maximum load per shot should never exceed total Pellets containing more than 100 grains volume equivalent. That means, no more than:
45 Caliber 1) Two (2) 50 grain Pellets
2) Three (3) 44/45 caliber 30 grain
50 Caliber 1) Three (3) 30 grain Pellets, or
2) Two (2) 50 grain Pellets, or
3) One (1) 50 grain Pellet and one (1) 30 grain Pellet

54 CALIBER RIFLE:
54 Caliber Pyrodex Pellets come in one size only:
60 grain volume equivalent which equals 60 grains of loose powder by volume.
The maximum load per shot should never exceed 120 grains (2) Pellets.
44/45 CALIBER PISTOL:
The maximum load per each revolver chamber should never exceed one (1) revolver Pellet. Exceeding maximum load may cause damage to the firearm and cause personal injury or death to the shooter or bystanders.
* At no time should the shooter exceed the firearm manufacturers recommended maximum load. If there is a question concerning the firearm maximum load, please contact the firearm manufacturer for guidance."

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

[1sourdough]

 I was getting a pretty steady 1950 fps with 120 grns B209 & a 250 grn Hornady SST out of my 26" Knight last Fall. I used a CCI mag primer. The speeds are a little less than listed in the B209 brochure, but they work for me.

[Lawful Larry]

Hey Busta,

I was going by what is printed on my bottle of BH209.  I guess what is on my bottle is old data and they now have updated info.  Which is good.  And glad to know they are constantly reviewing their product.  But I am a little miffed on a statement on one of their pages:

"Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary
Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid
residue so there is no need to clean your barrel immediately
after use. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which
DOES NOT absorb moisture or harm your muzzleloader."

This is false!!!  I had the misfortune of not being able to clean my gun after a range session.  I got to it about six days later and low and behold I had a nice (read bad) layer of rust in the barrel.  So now I would make sure I run a cleaning patch, with solvent, down the barrel right after shooting.  I was lucky that was no perminent damage to my gun.

[coop2564]

Thats interesting I left mine uncleaned for 3 weeks and had no rust! One wet patch with hoppe's and a couple dry patches I was done.

[Lawful Larry]

Thats interesting I left mine uncleaned for 3 weeks and had no rust! One wet patch with hoppe's and a couple dry patches I was done.

Not only did I get rust, I stored the gun in a safe that had a golden rod installed.  I am still scratching my head on this.   

Oh  and btw, the gun is a Knight Vision with a Green Mountain barrel?!?!

[Busta]

Hey Busta,

I was going by what is printed on my bottle of BH209.  I guess what is on my bottle is old data and they now have updated info.  Which is good.  And glad to know they are constantly reviewing their product.  But I am a little miffed on a statement on one of their pages:

"Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary
Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid
residue so there is no need to clean your barrel immediately
after use. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which
DOES NOT absorb moisture or harm your muzzleloader."

This is false!!!  I had the misfortune of not being able to clean my gun after a range session.  I got to it about six days later and low and behold I had a nice (read bad) layer of rust in the barrel.  So now I would make sure I run a cleaning patch, with solvent, down the barrel right after shooting.  I was lucky that was no perminent damage to my gun.

Larry,

I have bottles from the first run released to the public, I have never seen that exact statement on a bottle. What lot# is on your bottle? This is what it says on back of the bottle.

*"Blackhorn 209 IS NOT a bore protectant. Any residue left in a barrrel after firing can trap moisture depending on humidity conditions and we strongly recommend cleaning as soon as possible."


It says this on the side of the bottle.

"RECOMMENDED CLEANING: Although Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive* and immediate cleaning is not necessary, any residue left in a barrel after firing can trap moisture (depending on humidity conditions) and we strongly recommend cleaning as soon as possible. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel after firing Blackhorn 209. This residue is easily removed with standard oil-based cleaning solvents. We recommended Blackhorn 209 cleaning solvent by Montana X-Treme. Do not use black powder cleaners or water based solvents."

HUMIDITY is the factor here. In the winter when humidity is low, I have went 3 weeks during hunting season without cleaning with no problems. Now during the summer with high HUMIDITY, I would not go more than a day without cleaning. I REALLY don't thing the powder or residue is hygroscopic, but if you are shooting in HUMID weather, I really do think moisture can be trapped under the residue. If the residue is disturbed and not completely cleaned out I feel it could trap even more moisture. If someone is using ANY TYPE OF WATER BASED LIQUID (spit, windex, water, black powder cleaning solutions, bullet lubes, Wonder Lube, Bore Butter) for swabbing/loading, you are introducing water into the bore and setting the stage for a problem IMO.

You have to understand, not all of the Country suffers from the high humidity like we do. In Montana where this powder is tested, it is a very arid climate. Coop probably does not suffer from the high humidity like we do. It is just something we have to be aware of and deal with accordingly. Blued barrels will probably need to be tended to sooner, but stainless barrels can corrode just as easily.

I know people in arid climates (out West) that don't get a crud ring with 777 powder, it don't matter what the humidity level is here in Michigan, I get the crud ring EVERYTIME with 777.

[Lawful Larry]

First off let us stop mixing two different subjects.  First I know what is written on my bottle and I can read english.  This is not a matter of "What the Colonel meant to say," situation.  You are boarding on calling me a liar.  Ya know what they say about pictures being worth a 1000 words:



Now this should put aside any more doubts as to what is on my bolttle.  It may not be on yours, but for the life of me I can't figure out why the company would print two different statements!

Now as to the loads.  This is what is on my bottle:



Thsi pretty much tells you that what I said is correct!!!  Now the website may say another thing.  But remember that it is more important on what is on the bottle, then what is on the website!  Not everyone has access to the internet.  So people will comply with the safety instructions on the printed bottle!!! 

Usually I don't keep up an agruement like this one.  But I am getting tired of people calling someone else's post as not being correct when they don't know what they are talking about.  Hopefully this will close teh subject and get you to see the light on where I am coming from!

Those are my last words on this subject.

[Busta]

Sorry I upset you Larry, it wasn't my intention. I didn't even realize we were having an argument. I was just trying to find out some information, lot #. The information I posted above has been printed on the bottles since last December at least. I just though you might have had a jug from one of the lots that I didn't have or newer information than I have?

Your right about the information on your bottle, but what I was asking about was the bold information in the block quote in my last post. I have cases with three different printings on the labels. I have bottles from the first case 4-3-08 that have the same printing as your example. The printing has changed at least two times since that one, but has been the same since last December Lot #1205088, as far as I know. My last case Lot# is 0107098. There were several runs between April and December last year, I just don't have one of the bottles on hand.

You must have a bottle from one of the first runs? The label is different now, and does have new information. I was just trying to also point out to other posters that might be reading this, that if it is humid or they introduce any water-based lubes/solvents, that they should clean with oil-based solvents as soon as possible.

I won't bother to try to help you again, if that is what you want?

[encore3006]

 

[coop2564]

Thats interesting I left mine uncleaned for 3 weeks and had no rust! One wet patch with hoppe's and a couple dry patches I was done.

Not only did I get rust, I stored the gun in a safe that had a golden rod installed.  I am still scratching my head on this.   

Oh  and btw, the gun is a Knight Vision with a Green Mountain barrel?!?!

I hunt in West texas there's just no humity there. But once in a while I do hunt in Louisianna so that rust is good to know I will clean her out if hunting in humid areas.

[Busta]

Coop,

The fouling/soot comes out a brownish color on my stainless rifles sometimes. Can't really explain it, but it could be mistaken for rust. I really think it has to do with the % of humidity in the air, and the type of primers used.

To get this back on track, I have a few velocities I could post as well.

.50 cal, 26" Sidekick.

200 gr Shockwave, 120 gr BH209
2211
2171
2218
2200 ave

250 gr TMZ (blue sabot), 120 gr BH209
2119
2106
2133
2119 ave
same with yellow sabot
2168

265 gr FTX (Harvester green CR sabot),  120 gr BH209
2129
2136
2134
2133 ave

270 gr Gold Dot (Knight green HP sabot), 120 gr BH209
2100
2099
2089
2096 ave

270 gr Gold Dot (Harvester green CR sabot), 120 gr BH209
2126
2143
2136
2135 ave

290gr TMZ (blue sabot), 120 gr BH209
2070
2041
2041
2050 ave
same with yellow sabot
2099

[sabotloader]

I guess I could add some velocity information as well.

The first table is dealing with only one bullet from a 45 cal Knight Disc Extreme.  I was shooting in warm weather (70's) and my elevation was 300 feet.

I always hate posting pic on this forum because they are reduced so much - hope you can figure it out...



Might be able to see it better following this link...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/45VelocityTest.jpg

I also started another test using a 50 cal Knight DISC Extreme and shooting a heavier .458/300 grain bullet. This table is not complete yet as I ran out of time and weather.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/50calT7vsBHVelocity.jpg

While I consider BH to be the 'real deal' it certainly is not the answer to everything.  I will continue to use the more economical T7 powder even though on the upper end of heavier bullets I may loose 150 fps.  In my shooting range of 200 yards it is not enough to worry about.

[Busta]

While I consider BH to be the 'real deal' it certainly is not the answer to everything.  I will continue to use the more economical T7 powder even though on the upper end of heavier bullets I may loose 150 fps.  In my shooting range of 200 yards it is not enough to worry about.

sabotloader,

777 might be economical in your neck of the woods, but it sure isn't in mine, especially the Pellets. Was just in Wally World today, 777 loose powder is $29.97, 777 pellets $34.97, then add 6% tax. The loose is $31.76 after tax, a little over 42.25 cents per 120gr load. Those Pellets are $37.06 after tax, that is $1.12 per magnum load @ 33 loads per box. BH209 is $29.90 shipped to my door (case of 10), 56.6 cents per 120 gr load.

Something strange, your 200 gr bullets out of your .45 with 130 gr 777 is slower than my 290 gr bullet with 120 gr BH209 out of my .50 cal. You don't even want to see the speeds of my .45 with 200 gr bullets. I think you are losing 100 to 200+ fps by using the FPJ's, at least. I am getting 2350 to 2375 with 200 gr bullets out of my .45 with 120 gr BH209 and the NFPJ plug with 1mm o-ring for seal.

Shooting my .45 sabotless, with .452" bullets I am gettin over 2200 fps with 120 gr BH209 and 300 gr XTP Mags w/Fed & Win primers. Over 2100 fps with 110 gr BH209 and 300 gr XTP Mags. These bullets were straight out of the box, no sizing or knurling involved. My next test will be with knurled bullets, I should get much better repeatability. I'm getting better mileage out of my BH209, which makes it more economical that the above figures when you consider velocities. If I back off to 100 gr BH209, I can still get the 300 gr bullet out the tube faster than your 200 gr bullet with 130 gr 777.

Now if we do the economics on that, you get 69 130 gr loads out of a pound of 777 at $31.76 here = 46 cents per load for a 200 gr bullet at 1942 fps. I get 63.4 100 gr loads out of 10oz of BH209 at $29.90 (to my door) = 47 cents per load for a 300 gr bullet with a faster velocity. Looks like it costs me one penny more per shot to get a bullet that weighs 100 gr more out the tube with a faster velocity. The biggest plus is that I don't need a sabot, just a card wad, and they are less than one tenth the cost of sabots.

I know I could order 777 to my door for less than it costs at Wally World, but I just don't like it that much to order it by the case. Just showing you there are other ways to look at the economics.


Sabotless .452" bullets in my .45 Knight 1:20 with 120 gr loads.

240 gr XTP, CCI 209M
2318
2310
2314
2314 ave

250 gr Shockwave CCI 209M (only had 2 bullets left)
2314
2294
2304 ave

300 gr XTP/MAG, CCI 209M
2182
2203
2196
2194 ave

300 gr XTP/MAG, Fed 209A
2203
2237
2203
2214 ave

300 gr XTP/MAG, Rem STS
2185
2189
2109
2161 ave

300 gr XTP/MAG, Win W209
2200
2203
2225
2209 ave

[sabotloader]

Busta

777 might be economical in your neck of the woods, but it sure isn't in mine, especially the Pellets. Was just in Wally World today, 777 loose powder is $29.97, 777 pellets $34.97, then add 6% tax.

Ya but! why would anyone shoot pellets?  T7 here in the Pac Northwest is $21 and that is for a full pound of powder.... And of course if you wait for the sales you can get it for $18 or wal-mart at the end of the year for $11.50

Now if we do the economics on that, you get 69 130 gr loads out of a pound of 777 at $31.76 here = 46 cents per load for a 200 gr bullet at 1942 fps. I get 63.4 100 gr loads out of 10oz of BH209 at $29.90 (to my door) = 47 cents per load for a 300 gr bullet with a faster velocity. Looks like it costs me one penny more per shot to get a bullet that weighs 100 gr more out the tube with a faster velocity. The biggest plus is that I don't need a sabot, just a card wad, and they are less than one tenth the cost of sabots.

Why in the world would I want to shoot 130 grain loads of t7 - that is just a waste - 120 grain loads with a .458/300 grain bullet is all I use for elk and 110 grain loads for deer with 200 or 250/260 grain projectile.

I am really not interested in shooting sabotless so I can rule myself out of that class - If I were going to shoot sabotless - I would just go back to a centerfire - which I have not used in years...

If you go to Toby's sight he has done a lot of comparison with T7 and BH - you can ckeck his numbers for our elevation and you will see the difference is not worth the money.

Shooting last fall with my favorite .50 caliber Knight DISC Extreme revealed that with a 100-grain volume- measured charge of Pyrodex "RS Select", the powder would get a saboted 260-grain Harvester Muzzleloading "Scoprion PT Gold" out of the muzzle (26" barrel) at 1,656 f.p.s. - which is about the same as when shooting the same amount of FFFg black powder.  The same rifle and bullet gave 1,944 f.p.s. with a 100-grain volume-measured charge of FFFg Triple Seven...and 1,968 f.p.s. with the same volume-measured amount of Blackhorn 209.  In comparison, the Blackhorn 209 load generates 2,236 f.p.e., while the Triple Seven load is good for 2,179 f.p.e.

Really not enough to pay the difference...

[rebAL]

I was told some time ago that the brown substance coming out of my bore was likely lead from my conicals;  Now I always use bore button or similar wad between powder and conical.

[grouse]

Sabotloader, i think you would be surprised how many people use 777 and pyrodex pellets.