Author Topic: One More Thing to Worry About (Read 2279 times)

chucky52 · « **on:** July 23, 2009, 06:32:51 PM »

I can't completely comprehend, the topic of Global Warming is over my head; but, my son the scientist has the following position:

I think anthropogenic CO2 caused some global warming and may continue to do so. However, I think we have an extremely poor ability to predict CO2 production, and there are a myriad of other variables that affect global climate. My understanding is that we have physical models that postdict the climate trends of the past century accurately, and when we remove the anthropogenic CO2, the models deviate and postdict a lower global temperature. However, little is understood about solar intensity, the effect of clouds, and the effects of increased temperatures! Until these models are used to make PREdictions at least 10 years in advance and these predictions turn out to be accurate, I am not comfortable with claiming that anthropogenic CO2 is absolutely definitely causing global warming and that the trend will continue.

That being said, I'm disgusted and frightened by the cap and trade legislation! I think it's a terrible idea to regulate a system we poorly understand, the carbon cycle, at the expense of a system that we decently understand, the energy economy. A friend who disagrees with me put it this way: either we pay a small amount now to reduce global warming in the future, or we pay dearly when we have to move all the coastal cities inland. The problem with this is that there is no way to quantify the extent to which the latter problem would occur, and there is no way to quantify the rate at which it would occur. I know that the cap and trade legislation will likely put only a small dent in the 30% of global CO2 emissions produced by the USA. What about China and India? They're putting up new coal plants every day.

With this cap and trade legislation, we're going to hinder our economy for a miniscule change in global CO2 emission. I think this is too small to effect any change on the long term result of anthropogenic CO2 and temperature change. If the alarmists are correct about the disastrous results of increased global temperature, I think they're going to happen anyway. Why not wait until the climate is better understood and then plan to react to the results of climate change rather than try to stop rising temperatures?

rak55 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:00:48 PM »

tell your boy it's just a figment of his imagination.

gypsyman · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:04:18 PM »

Cap and trade, and all the worry about the co2, isn't about global warming. Never has been. It's all about control, and money. Al Gore doesn't give a rats butt about global warming, he's trying to make millions off of this. If he was worried about emissions, why does he trapse all over the world in his private jet. Obama isn't worried about it, he's trying to colapse the economy, so he can push his socialist agenda.
Here in Ohio, unless something drastically changes in the next week, we're going to have the coolest July in over 100 years. Global warming, biggest farst being pushed since sugar substitutes in the 70's. Sad part about it is, what I call college educated idiots are swallowing this crap, hook line and sinker. gypsyman

chucky52 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:23:55 PM »

Wow, I knew some of this would come; but, also expected objective consideration. "The Boy" is working on a very serious PHD at a very serious university. As I said, I don't understand this stuff completely; but, he understands the available data and the lack of available data along with the conflicting data. He even spelled the big words correctly. After readily admitting that this was beyond my comprehension, posting his legitimate unbiased analysis, I get "tell your boy it's just a figment of your imagination. This is not that simple and compares to Paschals wager: If you believe in God and there is a God, you have everything to gain. If you don't believe in God, you have nothing to lose anyway. Figment of his imagination, college educated idiont??? I'm wasting his intellectual talent on this website and I had hoped for better.Could there possible be any logic or proof supporting "figment of an imagination?" What about the non-educated idiots? What about national leader idiots? Do you guys even know what the term anthropogenic means? Ever hear of the ice age, extinction of the dinosaurs; nevermind, figments again. We can all just run to Walmart a buy cheap buckets.

rak55 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:32:42 PM »

I believe in god, I also believe that the amount of change that our country can make that has to do with global anything just ain't much when you compare our over regulated, over ruled land mass verses the rest of the planet's unregulated production of about anything they can sell us. so until we can regulate and rule over all the planet as my god does then we have no control over anything including global warming which I believe happens naturally anyway. now that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:47:51 PM »

They started out calling it "global warming", then changed it to "climate change" after the coolest spring in

recent memory.

They started out with "universal health care" as their rally cry,

then changed it to "health care reform",

now after opposition from both sides,

it is called "health insurance reform"

rak55 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:14:23 PM »

mirage, sounds like you just another policritic always blaming everything on the politicians. it ain't their fault they have to lie, cheap or steal to get elected, that's just how our crooked system works.

rak55 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:33:15 PM »

chucky, have your son ask his professors if they believe in god then after they answer have him ask them why or why not. this is a test of their intellect and will give you an idea of where the world gets their ideas about the world from, instead of everyone just drawing their own picture of the world. I believe in higher education but not in everything that some schools are teaching.

teamnelson · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:45:51 PM »

Your son may enjoy looking into the evidence being put out by scientists (educated, serious) that were actually watching temperatures decline and glaciers grow in a lot of places. Anthropogenic causes are the easiest to blame as they're the only one we can do anything about. However the vog (volcanic smog) on my island is many times more toxic than all the other emissions combined and there's nothing we can do about that.

Questor · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2009, 12:47:24 AM »

The real issue with cap and trade is that it is policy designed to limit the US economy, and promote competing economies. That is its design. There is an implicit totalitarianism in it. The economy is not some abstract thing. It is you and me, making a living.

As for the science, there are a lot of scientists being paid to tell the government policy makers what they want to hear. There are grants to study global warming and climate change. This establishes the money trail. As a consequence, the assumption prior to any research being done is that it is a phenomenon to be measured. This makes all of the science worthy of skepticism.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:20:04 AM »

Well I am no scientist, but aint CO2 what we breathe out?

chucky52 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:53:12 AM »

We do exhale CO2, it's a "natural" thing just like fire, say one of the fires that destroyed San Francisco and other cities. While it may be natural, that doesn't mean more is better. Fire is not a figment of imagination; neither, is CO2. I believe in GOD, I believe Ostriches were created to stick their heads in the sand, not humans. I believe we are to walk thru life in faith, with practical feet. I believe our creator gave us grey matter to use. I'm certain that what is good for science is not necessarily good for scientist. In other words, if you want funding you got to keep those controlling the purse strings happy which in turn screws up science and science should not be confused with politics. This ain't the Garden of Eden, anymore. It's serious, we should be very concerned, diligent, good stewards; however, I certainly cannot find an answer to politics or humanity.

chucky52 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:17:03 AM »

Rak 55, his undergrad degree came from Texas A&M which is overwhelmingly evangelical Christian. Now he is at UT, Austin and his mentor professor is Catholic. I went to UT, Austin and it's is probably the most diverse school around and, their is tolerance of diversity. This is a scientific issue which needs to be embraced by scholars and scientist. Fortunately, he can debate theories on the issue within academia with an agreement to either disagree or not. They don't run him off for thinking about it. He doesn't even promote his position as conclusive. It's a serious issue and if we guess wrong it will be bad. No more Garden of Eden here, no more Sodom or Gamorrha and then there was also that big flood. How did we get from Science to Religion, anyway.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:20:44 AM »

So if CO2 is bad why is ethanol good? One of the largest byproducts of ethanol is CO2. Some ethanol plants have CO2 plants with them, but most don't. Also being there is more people on the planet now, we are releasing more CO2.

As to San Fruitciso burning, I'd say that would be a good thing.

gypsyman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:48:07 AM »

Chucky52, I wasn't trying to pick on your son in particular. You said it in your last post.Funding for this stuff, screws up scientists. They figure that if they tell the sugar daddy something that they don't want to hear, no more money. They don't have the guts to speak the truth. They've changed the global warming, to climate change. Surprise!! Climate change has been going on for eons. Nothing we can do about it.
Can we be good stewards for our earth? Absoulutley. I love to hunt and fish, and certainly don't want to destroy that opportunity for my kids. Follow the money. Do we, as a nation, have to devistate our economy for this. I think not. And that's exactly whats happening.
College is for higher learning, and to make people think. Ask your son this. Does he believe that if he came out with a different conclusion than what the professor did, a differing opinion so to speak, would that hurt his grade?? I'm not talking about right or wrong math problems, I'm talking about experiments that have varialables. Were you could have different results.
My wife graduated from Bowling Green Univ. here in Ohio several years ago, with a degree as a Medical Lab. Tech. Threw out her courses, she had several professors, and it was very well known, if you disagreed with them, your grade suffered. One of them, was teaching procedures that hadn't been used in almost 30 years. She had never actually worked in a medical lab. The equipment had been obsolete for this kind of testing for 15 years. That, is what I mean by college educated idiots. Their little world is what they percieve, and nothing more. No common sense. Good luck to your son. gypsyman

chucky52 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:39:09 AM »

Gman, I said what's good for scientist isn't good for science. I didn't say it screws them up. I will not lump all scientist, doctors, mechanics... into a group and label them. Just like preachers, some are good, some aren't. Same applies to professors. We have a lot of good people in the world and a lot of them tell the truth. His grades aren't at risk. One of the values of the school he is attending is that there is not a passing opinion. Students and profs disagree and debate a lot. In some cases, that is how progress is made. Actually, I strongly believe that he has been encouraged to be an independent thinker as a grad student and an undergrad.

Chilachuck · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2009, 05:18:10 AM »

Chucky, the old saying "Garbage in, garbage out" applies. Garbage data cannot be turned into valid conclusions no matter how smart a person is.

A NOAA employee, Hansen, invented the man made global warming scare and a number of politicians picked up on it as a means to status and power. Ask your son about how free Hansen was in sharing his data and work. People have practically had to twist his arm to get what he should have had ready to go /before/ he opened his mouth, proof of his work. His failure to do so places him firmly in the "unreliable" class, better known to us plebeian sorts as "Crackpot". (BTW, his own data and work, when he was finally forced to release it, shows his conclusions are politely described as "unreliable and questionable".)

The politicians have started funding junk science, so of course we get more junk science. Anything can be made to look possible, if only biased data is collected and relevant information is left in the field or garbage can.

jimster · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:06:51 AM »

I have a son who is a physicist, and accoring to him there would be no way to have enough data to decide WHAT cause climate change unless you studied it for another thousand years at least, because the earth is so old and has went through so many changes without people even being here.

At least the schools he went to didn't mess his head up...he doesn't drink kool-aid either. And don't ask me how or why he into physics...he didn't get it from me...obviously!

Oldshooter · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:12:43 AM »

Global warming Hmmmmm let me see wheres my global warming stamp?

rex6666 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:38:47 AM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on July 24, 2009, 08:12:43 AM

Global warming Hmmmmm let me see wheres my global warming stamp?

I like others just can't seem to work up a worry about Global warming
it is fun to watch the highly educated get their panties in a wad about
it though.

Sourdough · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2009, 12:54:09 PM »

Global Warming? You want to see global warming? Just wait it's coming! The day N. Korea, Pakistan, and Iran start slinging nukes, that's the day of global warming.

chucky52 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:55:12 PM »

Let's go back to basics, this is becoming muddled with off the cuff remarks.
1. This is the geniune opinion of a bright, educated young man, Eagle Scout who really is concerned.
2. I will also venture to say his knowledge and ability likely exceeds that of most people. Venture? Heck, I guarantee it!
3. He opens with the words "I think" (see 2. above) which means this is his opinion. I want more people to think!
4. He immediately bent over backwards to qualifY his position which cannot be disputed, it's in writing.
5. In paragraph 2 he directly states that he really doesn't like cap; and trade legistlation or the additonal stated concerns. Again, this is opiniion, concern. It's real, valid, well thought out, not political rehetoric and only smacks of his lack of toleration of what is not good for humanity.
6. I think this may be the most valid, objective, qualified, reasonable piece of written material I have ever read and some of these responses make me want to give up: "figment of his imagination...socialist agenda...healthcare."
7. You can agree or disagree, I don't care.
8. Neither one of us said Global Warming can't be disputed.

Did all of you guys really read what each of us wrote? It didn't come from the media, we're not communist; but, American citizens who care and refuse to bury our heads in the sand while a potentially serious problem is ignored or we screw up the rest of our world. I'm disappointed in what seems to be a lack of understanding of the opening of the thread. I feel like the post got more reaction than actual thought and understanding.

Now form a line and put a check in the box to ignore Chucky52 and have a nice day.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:09:17 PM »

Chucky you need to remember this bright young mind you speek of was TAUGHT to believe that "global warming" is a fact. My number one question for the Algore hypocrits is, why if you believe that global warming is caused by the use of fossil fuels, why are you using fossil fuels yourself?

I am sad to inform you that this"bright young mind" that you speak of has been brain washed. I am sure this "bright young mind" is plenty book smart I do not dought that. But it is obvious, he lacks the experience in life and also the common sence to make a decision on his own on anything outside of a mathematical equation.

There not on my Blackberry, now I corrected my spelling. Like I said Book smarts aint worth spit compares to common sence.

chucky52 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:39:07 PM »

Billy,

Nope, he wasn't "taught to believe that Global Warming is a fact." He and his professor disagree. The prof thinks Global warming is indisputable, while he believes that it can't be confirmed or denied, now. No doubt about that, it's in writing in the thread opening. He is an independent thinker and I hope I had a hand in that. How can you even come up with that, he never said it and who for Pete's sake is teaching anything on Global warming. Well, there is Al Gore; but, as I said he doesn't believe it's provable on the basis of what we know now. I'm inclined to think it's probably happening and I will not attempt to prove it, I can't. Anyone who wants to disagree can jump in.

He is gaining more life experience day by day, you can't go any faster than that. This forum has helped, I'm sure. You mention common sense (check your spelling, while your at it take a look at equation). How can you judge common sense from three paragraphs, written by someone you don't know and never met. Seems there is a lot of judgement and darn near hating on someone who has only written a position without denying the right of others to disagree. I'm alarmed at the number who simply passed judgement. I posted this for consideration and more information and I'm surprised at the condemnation of a position that wasn't taken, personal character judgement, etc.

chucky52 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:46:38 PM »

I didn't finish. Are you sure I'm using fossil (check spelling) fuels? Well I cannot deny that. Unlike others, I am minimizing my carbon footprint. I put one 18 gallon tank of gas per month in my Honda. I drive 8 miles per week day(round trip) to the light rail station in a car that gets 26 miles per gallon. I know that I can do better; but, the 2003 Honda is paid for and driving it with fossil fuels is my only choice at the moment. It's the only way I can make a living and I am looking to improve when I can. How about you?

DDZ · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:24:58 PM »

I'm with gypsyman on this. The global warming scare tactic is about controling the masses and money. The earth has always been warming and cooling. Now they want us to believe that man made co2 is the reason. I remember back in the 70's the same crowd (scientists included) were screaming global cooling. Now they want us to quit mowing our grass with gas powered mowers, for fear the earth might warm a degree. Did anyone ever think the sun might have something to do with with the earth warming right now? Here is a link to an artical written by Stephen wilde, who has been around awhile and has studied climate change. I think its a good read, and I tend to believe people like him instead of a scientist or professor with socialist driven views.

http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=1041

Oldshooter · « **Reply #26 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:49:16 PM »

Quote from: chucky52 on July 24, 2009, 01:55:12 PM

Let's go back to basics, this is becoming muddled with off the cuff remarks.
1. This is the geniune opinion of a bright, educated young man, Eagle Scout who really is concerned.
2. I will also venture to say his knowledge and ability likely exceeds that of most people. Venture? Heck, I guarantee it!
3. He opens with the words "I think" (see 2. above) which means this is his opinion. I want more people to think!
4. He immediately bent over backwards to qualifY his position which cannot be disputed, it's in writing.
5. In paragraph 2 he directly states that he really doesn't like cap; and trade legistlation or the additonal stated concerns. Again, this is opiniion, concern. It's real, valid, well thought out, not political rehetoric and only smacks of his lack of toleration of what is not good for humanity.
6. I think this may be the most valid, objective, qualified, reasonable piece of written material I have ever read and some of these responses make me want to give up: "figment of his imagination...socialist agenda...healthcare."
7. You can agree or disagree, I don't care.
8. Neither one of us said Global Warming can't be disputed.

Did all of you guys really read what each of us wrote? It didn't come from the media, we're not communist; but, American citizens who care and refuse to bury our heads in the sand while a potentially serious problem is ignored or we screw up the rest of our world. I'm disappointed in what seems to be a lack of understanding of the opening of the thread. I feel like the post got more reaction than actual thought and understanding.

Now form a line and put a check in the box to ignore Chucky52 and have a nice day.

Well chucky we just ain't buying it and there are more scientist that ain't buying it than are!
Don't listen to them and certainly dont listen to algore!

We have the education and the wherewithal to say BS Climate change has been going on since time began and it will continue after we are all gone.
to say we can make climate change is a little arrogant since God made this world and knew when he did it that we were gonna be here doing our best to screw it up. But we can't screw up the climate that is not possible because "we" are to damned insignificant.

No one said we weren't concerned, I personally am more concerned with the speed in which this economy is being destroyed. climate change is just another "crisis " this new government is using to destroy this country as we knew it! Period!

If when you start a thread do not wear your feelings on your shirt sleeve, so when people think you are full of it(or your theory is) you wont get em hurt and as to ignoring, I dont even ignore agent "7"

Tell the young un to keep at it and to keep an open mind, I am almost 60, I'm pretty happy with how i believe now but I will listen to anyone but reserve the right to use the BS stamp on any theories I feel need it.

chucky52 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »

Oldshooter,

My feelings aren't hurt, never said they were. Never asked you to buy anything. You're right, scientist on both sides of thie issue. I have always wanted him to keep an open mind; but, I swear, I never expected so many to miss the point so far. It's an issue! Don't feel sorry for me or us. If nothing else, this is a great topic to consider. If it's wrong, so be it and we have one less thing to worry about. If nothing else, I'm glad I started the thread to create more awareness. So far, the only thing I haven't been accused of is voting for O'bama. I just thought it was a good topic for the forum. The problem is so many went off topic condemning the initial position. The initial positon is that the author "...is disgusted and frightened by the cap and trade legislation!"

chucky52 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2009, 04:50:14 PM »

DDZ,

That's a good link and all should read the article. I've decided to stay off the religious forums. I don't think I could take it, that's a rough forum.

nomosendero · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2009, 05:12:45 PM »

Quote from: chucky52 on July 24, 2009, 01:55:12 PM

Let's go back to basics, this is becoming muddled with off the cuff remarks.
1. This is the geniune opinion of a bright, educated young man, Eagle Scout who really is concerned.
2. I will also venture to say his knowledge and ability likely exceeds that of most people. Venture? Heck, I guarantee it!
3. He opens with the words "I think" (see 2. above) which means this is his opinion. I want more people to think!
4. He immediately bent over backwards to qualifY his position which cannot be disputed, it's in writing.
5. In paragraph 2 he directly states that he really doesn't like cap; and trade legistlation or the additonal stated concerns. Again, this is opiniion, concern. It's real, valid, well thought out, not political rehetoric and only smacks of his lack of toleration of what is not good for humanity.
6. I think this may be the most valid, objective, qualified, reasonable piece of written material I have ever read and some of these responses make me want to give up: "figment of his imagination...socialist agenda...healthcare."
7. You can agree or disagree, I don't care.
8. Neither one of us said Global Warming can't be disputed.

Did all of you guys really read what each of us wrote? It didn't come from the media, we're not communist; but, American citizens who care and refuse to bury our heads in the sand while a potentially serious problem is ignored or we screw up the rest of our world. I'm disappointed in what seems to be a lack of understanding of the opening of the thread. I feel like the post got more reaction than actual thought and understanding.

Now form a line and put a check in the box to ignore Chucky52 and have a nice day.

Your son sounds very bright & you should be proud. I remember when I was in College, I had a mind of my own, but at least to a small degee the Professors & Lib. "findings" can have an influence. I value the views of most after they are out on their own 10-20 years or so, a time to pull away from their studies & view the whole picture, which in no way invalidates his research, but again, a chance to think of the whole package.

One of the BIG problems with Global warming is that in the last few years we have been cooling with indications that we are going to get even cooler for the next few years. In the mid 70's the scientists of that day said we were entering a new Ice Age & the info was very compelling. Then we were somehow catapulted into Global Warming.
It appears that the Planet is much too complicated for our current understanding. If we have freedom & the ability to get on this forum, I would love to see the research for the climate of that day & which "CYCLE" we will be in, we have had cycles for as long as climate has been recorded.