Question on reloading for "slow" barrels.....

[drdougrx]

Hi All,

I own 2 remingtons that I consider to have "slow barrels" meaning that no matter what I reload, I can't get velocities anywhere near the spec for the cartridge.  Here's what I mean...I have a rem 700 BDL stainless in .375HH and have loaded RL-15, H414 and IMR4350 with 300 and 270gr bullets of various manufacturers.  I have an oehler chrono that I've owned since the 90's and use all of the time.  Being a pharmacist by profession, I weigh my powder and generally get a Sd of 10 or less so I know that my loads are consistant.

My chronographed velocities tend to be at least 200fps slower than any book published.  For a 300gr Nosler partition, I get 2430fps (and 1" groups) with 74gr of RL-15 (max is 72gr). In order to get the published velocity, I've loaded 76.5gr and the accuracy is aweful.  The 270gr bullets give high 2400s with the same powder and good accuracy, but my loads are over by a couple of grains as well.  This is exactly the same with my Rem 700 Mountain Rifle in 06 that I bought in the 90's.  It has a 24" barrel and my pet load is 61gr RL-22 with 180gr bullets and I'm just barely at 2700fps.

Now...I've used both on game and have killed a bunch and there's never any issue as to whether they work...but...for the sake of discussion...is there any loading technique that could help me get velocity near that which is published.  I've considered rebarreling each gun or rechambering to a wild cat (.375/8mmmag, 375wby and 30/06AI or gibbs) as well.

What do you think??

[FW Conch]

Just for the sake of discussion  published velocity #1 - the one the manufactor claimes & puts on the box.  I feel as a general rule of thumb we can automatically deduct 100 feet/second.  That makes your barrels only 100 fps slow !  Published velocity #2 - the reload.  These velocities are determined on "shooting devices", not rifles !  They are almost always on 24" barrels.  Are the barrels you mentioned both 24" or longer ?

I am a hunter & I could yeally care less about even 300fps in velocity loss.  I shoot my rifles & loads out to 300yds & as long as the bullet performes predictably, I don't care how fast it is going.

If I have a rifle that groups well & is a good game getter, there is no way I would consider rebarreling just because it seems a little slow.

To sort of put some of these numbers & data into some kind of perspective, I will reference an article Lane Pearce published in the 2008 April issue of Shooting Times, titled "How Important Is SD"-(standard deviation).  I was once scolded on another site for not taking an indepth discussion on SD seriously enough.  Lane concluded his article as followes - "From a practical standpoint, I believe I've just reaffirmed the lessons learned from shooting thousands of rounds over the chronograph. The 'real' results are how well your handloads perform after the bullets exit the barrel, i.e., how well they group.  As we engineers say, '...the rest is simply cross-plotting datta'."  After reading his article & seeing his results, I'm not putting much sweat into SD.


As shooters & reloaders, we all tend to get excessive-compulsive! JFTSOD!    Jim

[securitysix]

Conch nailed it.  Most data in reloading manuals comes from a "universal receiver" and a long test barrel.  Some data actually comes from shooting it through a real gun.  Your reloading manual should say what they used for testing, so that's the first place I'd look.  If you're shooting a 22" rifle and trying to get the velocities they got from a 24" or 26" barrel on a universal receiver, you're chasing the wrong target.  Then again, I see in your post where you say you are shooting a 24" barrel, at least on your '06, so that's something.  I'd still check to see what your reloading manual used to get their velocity numbers, because even with the same barrel length, the universal receiver will get slightly better velocity than most rifles.

Also, as pointed out, your loads work.  You get good groups, reasonable velocity, and, as you pointed out, when you put the bullet where it belongs, game goes down.  Some rifles just shoot slower than others.  I'd be more worried about accuracy (which you have) and whether or not the rifle/load combo does what you want (dropping game).  Seems you have that, so I think I'd just leave it alone.

[iiranger]

For a "professional," frankly, you disappoint. You have not gathered all the data/"done your homework."  In what length barrel was the velocity you quote achieved? As indicated, many "tests" are run in "test" barrels and often they are 26 inches long (or longer). Frankly, I am very annoyed, think it borders on "fraud" (my training) that the factory only sells guns with 22 inch barrels or 24... but quotes test barrel velocity. Yes, there is variation between any two guns. Mr. Ackley in his books makes the point that several gunsmiths who happened to build on "fast" barrels advertised their wares widely quoting these unusual velocities but no one who bought, as a rule, came too close. And, you cannot buy the powders that the factory's use. They don't know what they are buying when they buy by the train load. (With IMR in Canada, I wonder what the exact relationship with Remington is?)  They test and work up loads with it in a lab and then set the machiens to load 10,000 rounds or so... testing constantly. and sometimes they get results far exceeding anything "commercial burn rate" powders/ "cannister powders" can achieve. Then there are bullets. Sometimes you can get factory bullets. Sometimes not. Different metals, different friction.

If this is so important to you, a re barrel is no guarantee. You can buy different bullets and try many different powders and MAYBE... (is it worth it???)

Jack O'Connor used to say that for rifles working at 2,000 you could reduce quoted velocity by 25 feet per second per inch. For rifles working at 3,000, it should be 50 feet per second per inch. And this is very, very general.

If the gun is meeting your needs, i.e. "it ain't broke" why fix it. On the other hand if you want an expensive custom rifle... go for it. But in those boomers, well you better like the smell of liament, oh, right, your a druggist... enjoy...

[Graybeard]

I've NEVER owned a .30-06 that delivered the velocities loading manuals claim they should using even max book charges. I dunno why but for some reason the '06 is one cartridge I just can't get to perform upl to specs.

[drdougrx]

Thanks for the reply fellows....just an academic discussion really.  Both rifles have 24" barrels and I've loaded just about all bullet weights from most manufacturers in each.  My records go back to the 1980's. I like to play and relaod different loads almost weekly because, well....it's kinda fun.  I've killed enough to realize that most of this is really academic.  My anemic 375HH loads flattened a bison bull with one shot.  Not due to my limited shooting skills believe me...just plenty of power on a fairly easy to kill big animal.  Just fun to think about...or...frustrating to think about depending on the day.

BTW...iiranger...hope you fun'n with your professional cracks...fellow might take offense....appears by your post you're an attorney...hmmm....but I do think you're right in what you say...universal receivers at the factory give one data set...actual rifles give others..or...a drug's side effects in a limited controlled study may have no bearing on those that are experienced in the general population.  And I've made some dynamite, stinkey, linament!!!!

[Lone Star]

They don't know what they are buying when they buy by the train load.

Really?  You know this for a fact?  They buy on specifications only?  How much is a "train load" of powder?  Where is your homework/proof?

With IMR in Canada, I wonder what the exact relationship with Remington is?

Why should there be any relationship at all?  Why would Remington use IMR powders - which are owned by Hodgdon?  Homework again......enjoy....


.

[Siskiyou]

I have written numerous times about my Remington 700 in .270 Winchester with a “slow barrel.”  It is accurate but slow.  I load for two other rifles in .270 Winchester, a M760 and a Savage 110.  The M700 is consistently 30 to 40 fps slower than the other two rifles with the same ammunition, fired under the same conditions on the same day.

At one of the major gun shows many times there is a seller there with Remington barrels taken off action to be used on custom rifles.  The price is right and in theory I should gain back that lost velocity.  But what if the new barrel is not as accurate as the current barrel?

I have been slow to replace the barrel because the cost of having a gunsmith pull off the old and replace and head space and new barrel may not produce any real benefits.

I have taken a deer over 250-yards with the slow barrel and the loss of velocity did not seem to make a difference.  Last year’s buck was so close the impact of the bullet rippled the hide like the wake behind a speed boat.  The two inch exit hole was rather destructive, but the exit hole was exactly what I wanted.

Published factory velocity has always been suspect.  Early Frontier Brand 150-grain ammunition produced only 2809 fps out of my fast barrel.  A brother and bit hook line and sinker on WW factory 150-grain PP for our .270 Winchesters.  It was advertised 2900 fps by the factory.  I could only get 2727 average over my Chrony.  I had bought a few boxes of it post season at an outstanding price.  Because of its accuracy and performance on deer I now hoard it.  My brother was so impressed with the performance of the Power Point bullet that back when the prices were not out of control he bought a thousand 150-grain PP on sale.  Rather than compare velocities with published factory velocities, test fire factory ammunition across your Oehler under the same conditions you test your own loads.
I am one of those loaders who trims their cases, and weight each powder charge.  I also record temperature, RH, wind, and altitude at the location I shoot.  In the winter I shoot at the 1900-foot elevation, but once the snow is off the ground I move above 6700-foot to simulate the elevation I will be hunting.  I then use the average velocity at 6700-foot elevation when generating data from my Sierra Ballistics Program for the rifle data card.

I have to laugh at myself, I happily use a 30-30 or .300 Savage, but fret over the loss of a few feet of velocity from a 270 barrel.  I will mark that off to human nature.
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Centerfire Rifle
30-06 Springfield
•   Speer 180 gr SP
•   Reloder 22
•   CCI 200   

Case   Minimum OAL
(inches)   Bbl Length   Primer   Powder   Charge Weight
(grains)   Velocity
(fps)
Winchester   3.16   -   CCI 200   Reloder 22
62gr.   2,721

Looks like you -06 is on money.                  

[charles p]

Had an early Rem 700 Custom in 30-06, back when they chambered them in 5-6 calibers each year.  Hardly knew how to reload, but I did.  Never checked velocity.  Probably killed more deer with 150 grain bullets than a deuce and a half can carry.  Finally shot that barrel out and rebarreled the rifle as a 280AI.  Wish I still had it back (if it would just shoot good again).

Thinking I bought the rifle used in about 1978.

[drdougrx]

"I have to laugh at myself, I happily use a 30-30 or .300 Savage, but fret over the loss of a few feet of velocity from a 270 barrel.  I will mark that off to human nature."

Hey Sisk!!!   You're sooo right!  For me it's a 45/70 and I very seldom give velocity a 2nd thought!!!

[mauser98us]

I have my own issues.25 years ago I built a 7x61 sharpe and hart magnum on a mauser action with a 26 douglas premium barrel. I specified no freebore as it as standard in all Schultz and larsen rifles in this caliber. Intial loads were 5 grains below bookmax. First time I shot it I got flattened and pierced primers and had to hammer the bolt open. My loads are now 5 grains below book MINIMUM and my velocities are 250 fps faster than the maximum stated load,with easy extraction,minimal case head expansion,and primer appearance.Each rifle is a rule to itself.Enjoy the ride.

[FW Conch]

  Just For The Sake Of Discusson ??    Jim