Author Topic: 8x57 mm Improved (Read 5333 times)

lgm270 · « **on:** July 25, 2009, 02:38:12 PM »

Has anyone had any experience with an 8x57 mm Improved mauser a la Ackley Improved?

I've seen references to this round here and there, but no ballistics or loading data. It strikes me that you could use 30-06 length cases and die form improved rounds without having to fireform.

I read about a guy who die formed .250 AI cases from .243 casings.

Lone Star · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:15:20 PM »

There just isn't enough increase in case capacity to make it worthwhile IMO. A better choice would be the 8mm/06, probably cheaper and easier to do. Lots of load data available too.

I make some of my .250/3000, .243 and .260 cases out of .308s - but then I'm a little nuts......

.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2009, 03:55:33 PM »

I'd say, leave it alone, but if you just can't stand it, go 8mm-06!

DM

lgm270 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2009, 04:46:49 PM »

The advantage of the 8x57 AI is that you can die form cases from 30-06 length brass without fireforming. I don't believe improving will transform the performance of this round in any significant way, but I am intellectually curious about its performance. It would have the advantage of being able to handle standard 8x57 ammo as well. I think it would be fun to have something a little different.

I've read that you can improve the performance of standard rounds at least 100 fps by the AI conversion. 100 fps is not revolutionary, but I would enjoy experimenting with it. Of course I don't "need" it. Need is not the point, as most of you know.

Happy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2009, 09:44:34 AM »

I have read the 8MM mausers were reamed out to 8MM /o6 to get the horse power . This would be intersting in itself as brass is never a problem . Would dies Etc then need to be custum made and much work done to the mauser being converted ? Going for the AI version of the 8MM would certainly mean all custom work .Any one with the experiance ?

454Puma · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2009, 09:59:12 AM »

Also wouldn't going to the 8mm/06 just be getting a 8X68 mm? Personally I don't see any problem with a 8x57mm I like the cartridge and it performs very well on it's own!

nomosendero · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2009, 04:53:58 PM »

Quote from: Lone Star on July 26, 2009, 02:15:20 PM

There just isn't enough increase in case capacity to make it worthwhile IMO. A better choice would be the 8mm/06, probably cheaper and easier to do. Lots of load data available too.

I make some of my .250/3000, .243 and .260 cases out of .308s - but then I'm a little nuts......

.

Yep, if you want to change it, the 8mm06 is a good way to go.

Brithunter · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2009, 10:38:13 PM »

Hmmm as I understood it from reading Ken Waters and the like the 8mm/06 came about due to the shortage of 8mm brass after WW2 and there being thousands of Mauser in the hands of returning GI's.

IMHO the 7.92mm mauser does not need impoving just loading corectly

in it's standard loading it handily out performs the 06

yep the original spec for the 7.92JS is a 154 grain bullet at 2900+fps whilst the 06 uses a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps and modern commercial European sporting ammo is loading to it's proper CIP pressures and not downloaded as in the SAMMI pressures. For an example the S&B 196 Grn SPCE is loaded to a velocity of 2568fps according to S&B's data. I'll keep my 7.92mm chambered rifle just as it is thanks. Oh I also have one chambered in 30-06, same make just a different stock style

.

securitysix · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2009, 09:38:52 PM »

Quote from: lgm270 on July 25, 2009, 02:38:12 PM

Has anyone had any experience with an 8x57 mm Improved mauser a la Ackley Improved?

I've seen references to this round here and there, but no ballistics or loading data. It strikes me that you could use 30-06 length cases and die form improved rounds without having to fireform.

I read about a guy who die formed .250 AI cases from .243 casings.

Not sure why you wouldn't want to fireform anyway. Just buy some Remington or Winchester factory ammo and shoot it in your improved chamber. Voila, fireforming done.

Then again, as others have pointed out, the 8mm Mauser isn't lacking in power if loaded properly. It's just that the factory loads are loaded to lower levels in the US to keep from blowing up some of the really old Mausers.

Brithunter · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2009, 10:00:58 PM »

Ahhhh why is this problem of "weaker old Mausers" only a US issue? there are old Mausers in Europe, loads of them, yet the Ammunition companies load the cartridges to their CIP proper pressures and so far I have never heard of a problem with this. Perhaps they expect us shooters in Europe to have enough brain power to work out that the real old Mauser designs need more gentle treatment. It's called "Common Sense"

.

Yes there are still some dumb ones who can and do blow up anyhting. We have one club member I do my utmost to avoid as he can blow up modern rifles. His latest one was a Tikka T3 that he destroyed by using a case full of pistol powder

split the action wide open and still has some shrapnel imbedded in his fore head from that one. I understand it's not the first one he has blown up either. Pity it was not more serious and that he didn't do the job propelry and remove himself and his stupiduty from this mortal earth and done the rest of humanity a favor.

Another blow up I do know of again was a handload and again involved pistol powder although this time is was an antique Rolling Block rifle and the blow up injured another shooter who ended up with part of the action casting imbedded in his chest. The injured shooter was nothing to do with the idiot who caused the blow up and was just shooting on the same range and again the idiot who caused it had blown up other guns in the past

.

No I think that the real reason that US ammunition companies load the 8mm Mauser to lower pressures is so that the fact that it's actually a better performing cartridge than the 30-06 is not made obvious. It's a political decision and the excuse about weaker rifles is just that an excuse

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** September 22, 2009, 01:46:14 AM »

Brithunter: the business about the 'weaker old Mausers' is the US ammo makers liability excuse. Their concern was for the use of the .323 bore ammo in the older .318 bore - just a concern as none of the older .318s ever blew up (that I have rad about) although I think Thompson Whelan probably used a .318 bore with .323 ammo for accuracy 'testing' and subsequently put the death knell on the 8mm Mauser round in this country for nearly 60 years. As a result the 8mm mauser ammo made in this country is garbage - you would be better off with a 30-30 than to use US made 8mm ammo.

Hence, Sellier and Bellot (S&B) and PRVI. If you are going to shoot a European caliber, then shoot European made ammo in it. S&B, Norma and Fiochhi are all loaded to original Eurpoean specifications (pressures, velocity and bullet weight) and that ammo far outshines anything made in the US.

I also believe the 100'/sec increase you can obtain from the Ackley Improved cartridges use US ammo specs as a base - hence (I like that word) a 100'/sec increase in 8mm velocities means a 100'/sec increase over the US made ammo, not the European made ammo, the question back atcha is 'why bother'

??

Thsi also goes for the 8mm/06. I like the idea of a 8x63mm round (8mm/06) but load data is still pretty soft as, of course, you are using a older Mauser action for the cartridge. I wouldn't mind building a 8mm/06 that would put a 200 gn slug out the bbl at 2700 or 2800'/sec but you won't find load data for that in any US manual.......jmtcw.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 22, 2009, 01:49:47 AM »

Brithunter welcome back. I have missed hearing about and seeing your fine rifles.

Brithunter · « **Reply #12 on:** September 22, 2009, 02:25:35 AM »

Thank you

Hopefully two more will joining the bunch before too long although it means saying good bye to one to make room

I will hopefully be welcoming home another Parker-Hale, model 1000 this time and a BSA Hunter of 1956 vintage.

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** September 22, 2009, 02:32:31 AM »

Yew guys over across the big pond don't have the millions of greedy lawyers we do waiting to sue the manufacturers as we do here. We've become a "sue crazy" society here in the US. Most all US manufacturers of all items fear the lawsuits and have become overly cautious as a result. It's really a matter of folks not being willing to take responsibility for their own actions and wanting to blame their own stupidity on someone else. Sadly the courts continue to allow it and reward huge judgments in such cases.

Brithunter · « **Reply #14 on:** September 22, 2009, 10:28:58 AM »

Ahhh GB.................... we have the same sharks heres vastly more than we once had thanks to the like of dear ole Cheri Blair. Both her and dear Tony were/are lawyers so they had a vested interest in this.

Casull · « **Reply #15 on:** September 22, 2009, 10:43:28 AM »

Quote

No I think that the real reason that US ammunition companies load the 8mm Mauser to lower pressures is so that the fact that it's actually a better performing cartridge than the 30-06 is not made obvious.

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 22, 2009, 10:58:26 AM »

On the US loading it down I would think the low pressure .323 bullets in. .318 bore would still be realy realy high pressure. The old .318 bore mausers cannot handle near the bressure of a 98 so I think that story is pure BS or urban legend.

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** September 22, 2009, 11:14:13 AM »

US ammo makes load to SAAMI pressure standards. Other countries use a different standard that generally is both higher and measured differently which also results in more performance. Most often it really is the reason for different performance levels in US and foreign made ammo.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #18 on:** September 22, 2009, 11:19:45 AM »

Quote from: Casull on September 22, 2009, 10:43:28 AM

Quote
No I think that the real reason that US ammunition companies load the 8mm Mauser to lower pressures is so that the fact that it's actually a better performing cartridge than the 30-06 is not made obvious.

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are.

I just wish it were true.

DM

nomosendero · « **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2009, 03:31:03 PM »

This is not a case of getting what you wish for, but certainly no harm in the fun.

Brithunter · « **Reply #20 on:** September 22, 2009, 09:26:43 PM »

Hmmm I wonder why SAMMI choses to use different pressures than the cartrideg designers and developers, but only with non american cartridges? and it's not just 8mm Mauser thay have doen this too. Oh and Drilling Man we are fully aware that you use the lower pressured rimmed 8mm cartridge

but let's compare like for like. Rimless for Rimless

Drilling Man · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2009, 02:52:57 AM »

Quote from: Brithunter on September 22, 2009, 09:26:43 PM

Hmmm I wonder why SAMMI choses to use different pressures than the cartrideg designers and developers, but only with non american cartridges? and it's not just 8mm Mauser thay have doen this too. Oh and Drilling Man we are fully aware that you use the lower pressured rimmed 8mm cartridge but let's compare like for like. Rimless for Rimless

I load 200 NP's to 2,550 fps, i wouldn't exactly call that under loaded.

DM

Brithunter · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2009, 07:00:25 AM »

Hmmm are you still inside the SAMMI pressure limits?

pardon me but I don't have any reloading manuals to hand ( am just about to leave for the club) but surely that velocity is higher than many manuals claim for the 30-06 with 200 grain bulelts or am I mistaken?

Casull · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2009, 09:55:32 AM »

Quote

Hmmm are you still inside the SAMMI pressure limits?

pardon me but I don't have any reloading manuals to hand ( am just about to leave for the club) but surely that velocity is higher than many manuals claim for the 30-06 with 200 grain bulelts or am I mistaken?

How about 338-06 (found at Hodgdon website - didn't list 8mm-06). 200 grain bullet at 2700 fps. Loading manuals typically list lower pressure loads for 30-06 (in deferrence to older guns) than they do for any of the cartridges derived from the 30-06. The 30-06 can safely launch 165 grain bullets at 3000 fps and 180 grain bullets at over 2800 fps (and with better ballistic coeficients). It WILL certainly beat the 8 x 57 (although it is a good cartridge itself).

Drilling Man · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2009, 03:04:20 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter on September 23, 2009, 07:00:25 AM

Hmmm are you still inside the SAMMI pressure limits?

pardon me but I don't have any reloading manuals to hand ( am just about to leave for the club) but surely that velocity is higher than many manuals claim for the 30-06 with 200 grain bulelts or am I mistaken?

Don't know and don't care... The fired cases fall out of the gun, and i've been shooting this load for more than 25 years... That's how i know a 30-06 will out perform it on the "biggest" game.

The Nosler manual says you can load the 8x57js to over 2,600...

DM

securitysix · « **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2009, 08:18:03 PM »

Quote from: Casull on September 23, 2009, 09:55:32 AM

Quote
Hmmm are you still inside the SAMMI pressure limits?

pardon me but I don't have any reloading manuals to hand ( am just about to leave for the club) but surely that velocity is higher than many manuals claim for the 30-06 with 200 grain bulelts or am I mistaken?

How about 338-06 (found at Hodgdon website - didn't list 8mm-06). 200 grain bullet at 2700 fps. Loading manuals typically list lower pressure loads for 30-06 (in deferrence to older guns) than they do for any of the cartridges derived from the 30-06. The 30-06 can safely launch 165 grain bullets at 3000 fps and 180 grain bullets at over 2800 fps (and with better ballistic coeficients). It WILL certainly beat the 8 x 57 (although it is a good cartridge itself).

Hornady 6th Edition doesn't show a 200 grain bullet, but shows a 195 grain bullet running 2600 FPS from a 23 1/2" barrel and a 220 running at 2400 FPS from the 8mm-06. 8x57mm Mauser shows as running the same 195 grain bullet at 2500 FPS and the 220 grain at 2300 FPS from a 24" barrel. Both test guns are listed as "Mauser Model 1898".

They list a 23 3/4" Model 70 Winchester chambered for 30-06 pushing a 190 grain bullet at 2700 FPS and a 220 grain bullet at 2500 FPS, just as a point of reference.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #26 on:** September 24, 2009, 05:05:02 AM »

Quote from: Casull on September 23, 2009, 09:55:32 AM

Quote
Hmmm are you still inside the SAMMI pressure limits?

pardon me but I don't have any reloading manuals to hand ( am just about to leave for the club) but surely that velocity is higher than many manuals claim for the 30-06 with 200 grain bulelts or am I mistaken?

How about 338-06 (found at Hodgdon website - didn't list 8mm-06). 200 grain bullet at 2700 fps. Loading manuals typically list lower pressure loads for 30-06 (in deferrence to older guns) than they do for any of the cartridges derived from the 30-06. The 30-06 can safely launch 165 grain bullets at 3000 fps and 180 grain bullets at over 2800 fps (and with better ballistic coeficients). It WILL certainly beat the 8 x 57 (although it is a good cartridge itself).

Thing is, as you go to these bigger calibers, you need to stay with bullets of similar SD to get similar performance, at least that's what i've learned by using them on big game. Point being, you can't compare a 200 out of a .338-06 to a 200 out of a 30-06. The 30-06 will out perform it on the biggest animals, and i built and used my first .338-06 in the 70's, so i'm not guessing about that.

DM

kombi1976 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 01, 2009, 04:51:09 AM »

As much as I hate to say it the '06 does have an edge on the 8x57JS BUT.........the US Govt, after a number of wars came to the conclusion that the '06 was needlessly overpowered and inconveniently long for a semi-automatic assault rifle.
So they lopped its length and loaded it higher.
The resultant 7.62 NATO/308 Win matches the 8x57 until you move toward the heavier bullets and it runs out of steam.
There's more than a little irony in the fact that the govt took that long to come up with a cartridge that does all the things the 8x57 does and less........best part of 60 years longer.

Casull · « **Reply #28 on:** October 01, 2009, 07:08:17 AM »

Quote

Point being, you can't compare a 200 out of a .338-06 to a 200 out of a 30-06. The 30-06 will out perform it on the biggest animals, and i built and used my first .338-06 in the 70's, so i'm not guessing about that.

I agree, and I wasn't trying to compare the 30-06 to the 338-06, but rather the 338-06 to the 8x57.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #29 on:** October 01, 2009, 12:46:58 PM »

Brithunter, the 2700 fps for the 150gr 30-06 load is the WWII standard. The 30-06 150gr load can be loaded to 2900 fps with modern powders safely. The 8x57 is a great cartridge.

For something different the 8mm-06 IMP would be interesting. Some folks love improved cartridges and others dislike them.