8x57 mm Improved

[Casull]

Brithunter, the 2700 fps for the 150gr 30-06 load is the WWII standard. The 30-06 150gr load can be loaded to 2900 fps with modern powders safely. The 8x57 is a great cartridge.

Actually, the 30-06 can safely push the 150 grain bullet to about 3100 fps. 

[Brithunter]

Ahhh but how fast can the 8x57 safely be loaded to with modern powders?

I was comparing std factory loadings  .

The fact is still that the 30-06 was a poor longer copy of the original  . After all the 8x57 was pushing a 154 grain bullet to over 2900fps back in 1905  so much for progress  .

[Argonaut]

And the .308 is no real improvement over the 7.65 argentine in a model 98.  though all the rifles of first half of the 20th century are roughly 30 caliber shoot bullets of nearly the same weight, at close to the same velocity and each can basically do anything the other is capable of .  7.62X54, 8mm mauser, 30-06, 7.7 mm Japanese (fielded late).  It's all good.  At least it's all fun.

[kombi1976]

Ooo!! Ooo!! You forgot 303 British! 

But you guys are right, particularly if you look at factory loads.
These figures are from the Hodgdon page and I've included chamber pressures and powder & loads types to give and idea of what is possible.
As we compared things before they'll all be 150gr loads.



The 7.7 Jap and 7.65 Argentine don't rate wonderfully in this comparison but as you can see there was no pressure for them and a more modern approach using a good example of an Arisaka and a Mauser 98 would probably see better performance.
I've never understood why these rounds have been so poor and clearly both could do with some serious development using modern powders.
The big surprise is the performance of the 7.62x54R.
Perhaps a little ambitious, perhaps not.
For the record my 8x57JS, which took 5 feral goats last week at ranges between 50 and 180 yards using a 150gr Sierra ProHunter SP, pushes this bullet along at 2895fps with a 49gr load of ADI AR2206H (identical to H4895).
Mind you it has a 26" bbl and although it's 2gr below it sorta suggests that some of Hodgdon's data may be a tad optimistic.

[Sweetwater]

46 years ago last friday, My Dad gave me a sporterized '98 Persian carbine. 8x57js and 18" barrel.
50gr of IMR3031 will net me 2750fps at the muzzle. 200gr NP's run 2500fps+/_
Loads I use come from 8mm-06 data sheets in any good manual. My COAL is identical to 8mm-06. Load developemnt was slow and tedious over a course of 46 years - I still play with it for varous reasons, but mainly because I like to. I ran some borderline stupid loads through it many years ago and the rifle told me it was a "no-go". I learned to listen to it. It is by far the strongest action I have ever known.

8mm-06 requires more powder to get the same velocity as the 8x57. That is the single biggest reason I have never altered the chamber to 8mm-06.

My 8x57 puts down antelope to elk faster than Dad's 30-06 - we've watched them!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[kombi1976]

It's interesting that you say it's the strongest action you've known by far.
It's my feeling that because they didn't have the milling and machining techniques we have today the machinists at the various Mauser licenced plants had to be very sure of their forging and tempering.
That hand fitting and one off approach instead of running lots of billet through a CNC process shows.
Not that CNC billet machined stuff is weak, but it doesn't have the same attention to detail.

[jeepmann1948]

There are way too many white crosses in cementaries testifying as to the effectiveness of the 8mm round plus a lot from the 30-06 and other rounds as well. Botom line is they are all effective.

[Sweetwater]

Kombi1976  +1

Jeepmann1 +1

Both seriously true and agreed with...

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Brithunter]

It is by far the strongest action I have ever known.

Hmmm for strength I suggest you look at the M1910 Ross  in fact Kynoch had to come up with a lower pressure version of the 280 Ross for the Mausers as folks wanted the 280 Ross but the Mauser was not strong enough to deal with it so the 280 Nitro came about. Proof pressure for the 7.92mm and .30-06 is 19 Tons. Proof pressure for the 280 Ross is 28 Tons  :-



And this was in 1906, a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps, One day I SHALL get one 

[Sweetwater]

It is by far the strongest action I have ever known.

Hmmm for strength I suggest you look at the M1910 Ross  in fact Kynoch had to come up with a lower pressure version of the 280 Ross for the Mausers as folks wanted the 280 Ross but the Mauser was not strong enough to deal with it so the 280 Nitro came about. Proof pressure for the 7.92mm and .30-06 is 19 Tons. Proof pressure for the 280 Ross is 28 Tons  :-



And this was in 1906, a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps, One day I SHALL get one 

Great input and pics!! True to your experience and possible needs; not mine. Simply stated, my needs are purely standard calibers and contemporary ballistics. I was referring to some of the stupidity I had put my mauser 98 through that it took all in stride. Obviously my experiences are way different from yours, not making either wrong, simply different. I do know my mauser 98 is stronger the the mauser 93's, the Rem 722's and 700's and for sure stronger than Winchester and Marlin Leverguns. End of basis of statement: the mauser 98 is by far the strongest action I have ever known. And I'm still here to tell about it.
No doubt there are stronger actions beyond the scope of my experience and requirements.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Sweetwater]

Hmm, Apology to OP for rabbit chasing. Previous post having nothing to do with present thread.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[kombi1976]

I dunno about rabbits but I've nailed hares with my 8mm.
Tends to dead 'em real good. 

[Siskiyou]

Brithunter is on the right track  regarding the 8MM-06.  My early Hornady and Speer Manuals repeat the story regarding the case.

I never paid much interest to the round until 1979 when a new friend told me he had one.  My only encounter but after doing some research I was rather impressed with the published performance. 

I took a bear in the Peace River Country with the standard 8MM Mauser using Canadian factory. (C-I-L)I have no clue of the velocity of the 175-grain bullet, but it did the job with one shot. 

Mid South carries the 8MM-06 die.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0004432629

[Brithunter]

It's OK  just thought I would mention it. Sadly the rifle, the Ross M10 sporting rifle, is not mine, it should have been but I was Guzzumped on it.

Meanwhile I am about to start working with my 8x57 (7.92mm) again as I am putting it back on the shoot and not just have as part of the collection, yep more stupidity from our Police  , and will be back to working up handloads for it. This is what I am working with:-



It's a P-H 1200 Super with Leupold 2.5-8 Vari X 111 in Leupold QR lever Op mounts.

[Casull]

And this was in 1906, a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps, One day I SHALL get one 

And still the 30-06 will do about 3100 with a 150 grain bullet.

[Brithunter]

And this was in 1906, a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps, One day I SHALL get one 

And still the 30-06 will do about 3100 with a 150 grain bullet.

Oh deary me  the smokless powders that we have today did not exist in 1906 in fact with the American powders of the day the US Ord had enough trouble getting 2700fps. Now I wonder what the 280 Ross can do with modern powders. I do have a 30-06 chambered rifle but unlike some I am not blinded by the cartridge, nor any cartridge come to that  , I have too many different ones and like them all as why have one you don't actually like 

BTW Ross tried using the new 30-06 (then) case and  could not break the 3000fps barrier using it so had to design his own case to do so.

[Casull]

BTW Ross tried using the new 30-06 (then) case and  could not break the 3000fps barrier using it so had to design his own case to do so.

 

I'm not wedded to the 30-06, but your enamoration with the Ross is sort of funny.  It's a big case with a small projectile, so I don't see anything amazing about it's velocity.  Well, except of course that it was probably overstated.  Here's some info from Chuck Hawks:

The .280 Ross was based on a large case of semi-rimmed design. This case measures 2.59" long, which is slightly longer than a .280 Remington case. It has a rim diameter of .556" and a base diameter of .534" (slightly larger than a typical belted magnum case). The diameter at the shoulder is .404", smaller than the .444" of the .280 Rem. This is due to the considerable body taper of the Ross cartridge. The cartridge overall length is 3.50". The .280 Ross used .287-289" diameter bullets, as did the British .275 H&H Magnum, rather than the .284" bullets of German and American 7mm cartridges.

The original factory loads included a 180 grain FMJ spitzer bullet at a claimed muzzle velocity (MV) of 2800 fps, and a 146 grain spitzer hunting bullet at a claimed MV of 3100 fps. I say "claimed," as I understand that these loads actually delivered less velocity than specified. They still traveled right along, however, particularly the 146 grain bullet that may have delivered MVs of 3000 fps. Later factory loads advertised a MV of 2550 fps for a 180 grain bullet, and a MV of 2900 fps for a 140 grain bullet.

The .280 Ross became popular enough to be picked up by both Remington and Winchester, who offered factory loaded ammunition until 1935. These included, I believe, a 150 grain SP bullet at a MV of 2800 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 2610 ft. lbs. Contemporary British factory loads gave a 160 grain bullet a MV of 2700 fps and ME of 2600 ft. lbs.

The 146 grain hunting bullet used a bronze point, somewhat on the order of the later Remington Bronze Point bullet. Like the Remington Bronze Point and today's plastic tipped bullets, the 146 grain Ross bullet expanded very quickly against light resistance, but unlike modern hunting bullets it did not have a heavy, tapered jacket or bonded core to control that rapid expansion and prevent the bullet from "blowing-up" against heavier resistance.

What with being chambered in rifles that could be assembled incorrectly and kill the shooter, and saddled with early hunting bullets inadequate for the velocity at which they were being fired, the .280 Ross had an understandably checkered career. Many hunters praised the cartridge for its lightning like kills on deer and other light framed game, while some others had bad experiences trying to shoot elk, moose, and heavy African plains game with .280 Ross rifles.

The biggest problems occurred when hunters, impressed by the quick kills on CXP2 game, tried their .280 Ross rifles on dangerous game. Some of these Nimrods ended up bitten, clawed, and occasionally dead when the primitive bullets fired at high velocity failed to get the job done. This, of course, was not the fault of the cartridge, but as word about erratic bullet performance got around, the popularity of the .280 Ross declined.

Probably the last nail in the .280's coffin was the introduction of the .270 Winchester in 1925. The .270 actually delivered velocities in excess of 3100 fps with its 130 grain bullet. That bullet, with the advantage of better technology, was carefully designed to avoid the problems encountered by the .280 Ross. Through research, Winchester was able to develop reliable bullets for their new .270. That bullet evolved into the famous Silvertip, still produced today. It was probably the first good, high velocity hunting bullet to be offered in North American factory loads.

Such bullets were not invented until near end of the .280 Ross' commercial life, when the damage had already been done. It was too late to save the .280 Ross.

[Yankee1]

Hello All
     I have a prewar 1938 8mm Mauser from the Oberndorf factory.
It has the date engraved in large fancy numerals on the side.
Personally I would not do any modifications to it. I has a Bishop stock and everything else is stock. It shoots very well and I would not alter anything.  I have other rifles if I wanted different performance.
.300 win. mag., 30.06, 6.5 swede, plus Black powder rifles.
All these rifles shoot very well.
                                  Yankee1                                   

[Brithunter]

BTW Ross tried using the new 30-06 (then) case and  could not break the 3000fps barrier using it so had to desing his own case to do so.

I'm not wedded to the 30-06, but your enamoration with the Ross is sort of funny.  It's a big case with a small projectile, so I don't see anything amazing about it's velocity.  Well, except of course that it was probably overstated.  Here's some info from Chuck Hawks:[quote/]

Hmmm I am not enamoured with the 280 Ross although I do want one  it was a historical milestone in history of both rifles and cartridges as it was the first cartridge to actually break the 3000 fps barrier measured by the chronographs of the day which of course were of the Knife blade tpe and took a lot of setting up> Sir Charles Ross was very interested in ballistics and rifles so did all this happily. As for Chuck Hawks ............. welll! 

The .280 Ross was based on a large case of semi-rimmed design. This case measures 2.59" long, which is slightly longer than a .280 Remington case. It has a rim diameter of .556" and a base diameter of .534" (slightly larger than a typical belted magnum case). The diameter at the shoulder is .404", smaller than the .444" of the .280 Rem. This is due to the considerable body taper of the Ross cartridge. The cartridge overall length is 3.50". The .280 Ross used .287-289" diameter bullets, as did the British .275 H&H Magnum, rather than the .284" bullets of German and American 7mm cartridges.

Most  British cases had quite a lot of taper back then and the higer velocity ones were also long as well. This was generally to do with the Cordite powders used by the British. The tapered case does increase the bolt loading but it also makes for slicker feeding into the chamber an important feature for rifles used on game where a second quick shot may some times be required. This increased bolt thrust also makes the strength of the Ross rifle even more impressive to my mind. As for the bore size well it's normal for bores having 0.008" deep grooves which was also a common depth of rifling groove at this time. The 0.004" depth was brought in for speed of production and cheapness not for barrel life. Remington even made barrels with only 0.0015 of rifling depth during the period of the paper Patched bullet.

The original factory loads included a 180 grain FMJ spitzer bullet at a claimed muzzle velocity (MV) of 2800 fps, and a 146 grain spitzer hunting bullet at a claimed MV of 3100 fps. I say "claimed," as I understand that these loads actually delivered less velocity than specified. They still traveled right along, however, particularly the 146 grain bullet that may have delivered MVs of 3000 fps. Later factory loads advertised a MV of 2550 fps for a 180 grain bullet, and a MV of 2900 fps for a 140 grain bullet.

The later loads were those labeled 280 Nitro and of reduced pressure and velocity for the weaker rifles that were popular like the Mauser 98 but the full house Ross 280 loads. Ross loaded at least three different types of bullets and each was ment for a diffeent use. The Bronze tipped bullet that you mention, a Tube point bullet and conventional soft points plus the match bullets that were of heavier weight. Accuracy was superb, a fact bore out in the 1913 Imperial meeting at Bisley Camp where Ross rilfes won about every major prize and the NRA council looked into banning the Ross rifle from competition 

The .280 Ross became popular enough to be picked up by both Remington and Winchester, who offered factory loaded ammunition until 1935. These included, I believe, a 150 grain SP bullet at a MV of 2800 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 2610 ft. lbs. Contemporary British factory loads gave a 160 grain bullet a MV of 2700 fps and ME of 2600 ft. lbs.

The 280 ross may have become a "Political" cartridge just like the 8mm Mauser which is also loaded down in the US to make it less impressive  .

The 146 grain hunting bullet used a bronze point, somewhat on the order of the later Remington Bronze Point bullet. Like the Remington Bronze Point and today's plastic tipped bullets, the 146 grain Ross bullet expanded very quickly against light resistance, but unlike modern hunting bullets it did not have a heavy, tapered jacket or bonded core to control that rapid expansion and prevent the bullet from "blowing-up" against heavier resistance.

What with being chambered in rifles that could be assembled incorrectly and kill the shooter, and saddled with early hunting bullets inadequate for the velocity at which they were being fired, the .280 Ross had an understandably checkered career. Many hunters praised the cartridge for its lightning like kills on deer and other light framed game, while some others had bad experiences trying to shoot elk, moose, and heavy African plains game with .280 Ross rifles.

The biggest problems occurred when hunters, impressed by the quick kills on CXP2 game, tried their .280 Ross rifles on dangerous game. Some of these Nimrods ended up bitten, clawed, and occasionally dead when the primitive bullets fired at high velocity failed to get the job done. This, of course, was not the fault of the cartridge, but as word about erratic bullet performance got around, the popularity of the .280 Ross declined.

Probably the last nail in the .280's coffin was the introduction of the .270 Winchester in 1925. The .270 actually delivered velocities in excess of 3100 fps with its 130 grain bullet. That bullet, with the advantage of better technology, was carefully designed to avoid the problems encountered by the .280 Ross. Through research, Winchester was able to develop reliable bullets for their new .270. That bullet evolved into the famous Silvertip, still produced today. It was probably the first good, high velocity hunting bullet to be offered in North American factory loads.

Such bullets were not invented until near end of the .280 Ross' commercial life, when the damage had already been done. It was too late to save the .280 Ross.

Hmmm seeing as how it was actually the mud in the trenches that finished off the Ross rifle in March 1917 when the Domminion Government took over the factory. To a finely fitted and finished mechanism like the Ross rifle the mud of France of course was a disaster but in a sporting or match rifle it is not trouble at all after all how many of us expose our rifles to such conditions?

As for assembling a Ross M10 or M1910 rifle  bolt incorrectly and then inserting in the rifle that way  have you ever tried doing it? I doubt it very much as I also doubt you have really had any experience with the Ross rifle personally. My own experience is also limited as I do not have one as yet but I do fully intend to get one once I find a good one. I have been watching an earlier model 1905 sporting rifle in 303. When i first saw it it was priced at £275 which at the time I thought a bit much but last time I saw it he had it priced at £550  so I asked him why if he hadn't sold it at £275 why the price hike. His answer was that he saw one sell for that so that's the price. Funnily enough as far as I am aware he has not sold it. Now if it was a .280 ross then I would have had a closer look at it.

Now seeing as how the factory stopped making the Ross rifle in 1917 the introduction of the .270 Winchester was unlikely to have had much if any effect on the Ross rifle add to that the fact that the loads had already been downloaded for the weaker rifles any new .280's were chambered in  well that had to have had an effect. You also seem to have forgotten all about the Ross successful use on game such as Brown and Grizzly bear. Just like today it's requires the selection of the correct type bullet.