Author Topic: Picture of a coehorn mortar on carriage (Read 4520 times)

a4beltfed2000 · « **on:** July 28, 2009, 04:57:53 AM »

I was doing research for coehorn mortar and found this interesting picture (actually 10 different pics of the wheeled coehorn mortar base.

thought this might be of some help. according to the post, it is a original mount and barrel from the civil war. I saved the rest of the pics if you guy wanted them all posted, it shows just about every detail including the peg leg stablizer for firing from the wheeled mount

heres the discription
Mounted on wooden block (13 boards laminated together) with 2 iron handles on each side. This block is then mounted on a steel carriage with two 32" tall wood wheels with 12 spokes and 3" metal rims. Mortar and carriageare about 55" wide from hub to hub. Brass mortar tube is 20" long and has a 4.25" bore. Back of steel carriage has a single metal leg with a bottom plate with hole so it could be pegged. A Confederate oval plate has been attached to the top backside of the wooden platform. Has letters CS in an oval 3.5" long by 2.25" high. Wood has a very old coat of a buff-colored paint.

BoomLover · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:28:22 AM »

One is not enough! Show us more, please! Different angles, including underneath? Thanks, BoomLover

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:38:36 AM »

Don't have any from the underneath, but all other sides....

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:39:27 AM »

next one....

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:40:20 AM »

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:41:21 AM »

sorry guys pics are BIG

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:42:15 AM »

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:43:07 AM »

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:46:25 AM »

I wish I had access to the underside but alas, this is a piece that is up for auction from a personal collection. It appears the undercarriage has metal strapping, I see that the pegleg? has a crossmember along the rear side of the base?

looks like I found the first piece that I am going to be building.....hope you guys find this helpful...trying to give back to the forum a little.....

BoomLover · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:49:23 AM »

Very nice! Is that back leg removable, or hinged, so it could be towed by something, or at least made eaiser to move around? Great pics, thanks again for posting them! BoomLover

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2009, 05:57:54 AM »

Its doesn't seem to be removable, according to the auction house it was for staking to the ground, however I would bet that some how they used the hole for towing?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2009, 06:37:32 AM »

I am hoping Cannonmn will be able to shed a little light on this and other cannon in this auction,
I believe he is planning on attending.
I am suspicious of this mortar as being original. you can still see a parting line on it's side from casting,
also the bore seems small in relation to the wall thickness, All cannon carriages in the auction are painted a "BUFF" color,
several cannon are set up on wrong carriage and no mention is made of this fact.
One is on a ersatz swivel on a Gatling carriage the other is on a Hotchkiss
revolving cannon carriage, the auction house does not make this known in the description which brings doubt to
all descriptions on artillery, most shells are not identified as to type, they don't have the background to properly
Id this stuff.

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2009, 06:41:48 AM »

would this mount be stable to shoot the coehorn mortar from? it looks interesting to say the least!

Max Caliber · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:04:46 AM »

That looks like a modern re-enactment mortar and not very well done at that. The cart wheels and axle are modern as well as all the other parts. Painted in the baby s--t yellow that a lot of people - as well as the U.S. Park Service- used back in the 1970s, thinking that it was the color that the originals were painted.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:33:00 AM »

A4beltfed2000,

There have been two comments already posted that cast some doubt on the authenticity of this supposed CSA mortar; I'll add here, that if the history that you relate here concerning this mortar turns out to be true, then the person that originally put forward these claims has indeed made an extraordinary discovery, and is in store to recieve some well deserved accolades, but I personally have a sneaking suspicion that this is not going to happen.

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:28:07 AM »

The infomation that I relayed with the pictures is the info that they provide with the auction. I do not own this piece! I was searching for info on mortar bases and mounts and came upon this! I am not familar enough with CW arty pieces to tell you if its original or not and this was one of the reasons that I posted.

I found this piece to be very neat, and thought that someone else might find use in the info. Wasn't trying to stir up problems.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:37:53 AM »

Quote from: a4beltfed2000 on July 28, 2009, 08:28:07 AM

The infomation that I relayed with the pictures is the info that they provide with the auction. I do not own this piece! I was searching for info on mortar bases and mounts and came upon this! I am not familar enough with CW arty pieces to tell you if its original or not and this was one of the reasons that I posted.

I found this piece to be very neat, and thought that someone else might find use in the info. Wasn't trying to stir up problems.

Your not stiring up problems, it's actually good you posted them, the auction in question is looking for top dollar for these items,
and what is happening here is an honest discussion of what people see right or wrong with this peice, I am having about as much
faith of discriptions with this auction house as I do in many ebay auctions, my problem here is these are supposed to be professionals
in their trade, if anyone who was thinking on bidding on these items and is a member of the forum this thread may have enlightend them
to some of the problems with the discriptions and hopefully get a second opinion before bidding.

cannonmn · « **Reply #17 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:57:57 AM »

Everything about that item screams "repro" to me. The cart the thing is on is complete fantasy.

Evil Dog · « **Reply #18 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:59:20 AM »

Can you imagine the downward stress put on the axle when firing that thing?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:03:31 AM »

Quote from: Evil Dog on July 28, 2009, 08:59:20 AM

Can you imagine the downward stress put on the axle when firing that thing?

There's one way to KNOW. TRY before you buy!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #20 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:28:35 AM »

Quote from: a4beltfed2000 on July 28, 2009, 08:28:07 AM

The infomation that I relayed with the pictures is the info that they provide with the auction. I do not own this piece! I was searching for info on mortar bases and mounts and came upon this! I am not familar enough with CW arty pieces to tell you if its original or not and this was one of the reasons that I posted.

I found this piece to be very neat, and thought that someone else might find use in the info. Wasn't trying to stir up problems.

A4beltfed2000,

You aren't stirring up any form of problem, to the contrary, I for one, hope that in the future you will (I found the pics you posted very interesting) post anything you find that has to do with ordnance that fits into the proscribed timeline that this board discusses. You'll soon find out just how far-fetched, and nonsensical some of the information put out by auction houses, sellers, and others can get when they are trying to convince people of their items worth, or even their own worth, for that matter.

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2009, 10:19:02 AM »

thanks guys! so was there ever any coehorn mortars on a carriage or just sleds? I swore that I saw something similar to it during a revolutionary war movie?

GGaskill · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2009, 12:40:04 PM »

movie--I think that word should answer your question. There was no Signal Corps in the 1770's taking movies as there was in WWI and WWII.

BoomLover · « **Reply #23 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:10:53 PM »

A movie is a movie is a movie.. ..however, if they had a researcher on staff that had been able to find such an item, and used a prop of it in the flic, ect. However, I'm inclined to belive that the guys on this forum would have done the homework on this, and if it did exist, would have posted something like it by now. Not to say it couldn't happen, but these fellows are pretty sharp and would know! Another reason I like this forum, accurate info! BoomLover

KABAR2 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:26:32 PM »

You know I don't think during the Civil War that they required the fence to stop the friction primer from hitting someone I just noticed
the notch for the long black thing laying on the bed..... I guess someone was shooting this at an NSSA event.......

Artilleryman · « **Reply #25 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:31:01 PM »

First the bed was normally made of one or two pieces of wood not 13. This of course could have been made at a later date using the original metal parts. The barrel does not appear to have the correct configuration, but it is supposedly Confederate which might explain that. The barrel also has the appearance of being painted bronze, but that is impossible to tell from a photo. The problem that has no explanation is the bore size. It is stated as being 4.25 inch, 12 pdr shells had a minimum diameter of 4.49 inch. I don't think they would have made special ammunition for this mortar.

The wheels look like farm wagon wheels. Mortars where carried on mortar wagons using standard field artillery wheels. These wagons if I remember correctly carried either one 10 inch seige mortar or two 8 inch mortars. I don't remember a reference to the number of coehorns or if coehorns were carried on mortar wagons.

Mortars were meant to be fired from sturdy platforms, although coehorns may have been fired from the ground depending on the situation. I have seen a 24 pdr coehorn fired from a poorly constructed that had open area under it. That platform was destroyed during a seven round match firing at 400 yards.

The CS oval sounds like a belt buckle.

I understand that you are just posting a description given by someone else. Thanks for sharing with us.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #26 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:33:29 PM »

Quote from: a4beltfed2000 on July 28, 2009, 10:19:02 AM

thanks guys! so was there ever any coehorn mortars on a carriage or just sleds? I swore that I saw something similar to it during a revolutionary war movie?

Whether the mount for a mortar is made of wood, or metal, it's usually called a bed. I know it's never wise to say never, but as far as I know, coehorn mortars (smaller, lighter mortars) were maneuvered on the battlefield by troops carrying them. Which is probably a good way of visualizing just why Baron Van Coehoorn (Dutch soldier and military engineer) percieved a need to invent them; their mobility. These mortars would have been transported to battle on wagons, but once there they would have been moved to their firing positions by soldiers.

Victor3 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 28, 2009, 11:43:11 PM »

I'm not qualified to comment on the historical accuracy of the thing, but seems to me something like this might have been practical to move the gun around a short distance when a wagon wasn't available. If I were a guy assigned to carry a mortar by hand 100 yds ten times a day, I'd be looking for some wheels to stick under it.

My Wife's Grandfather has related a few stories of what both they and the enemy did to 'make-do' during the Korean War that I've never seen documented anywhere.

Double D · « **Reply #28 on:** July 29, 2009, 05:40:41 AM »

Victor the idea of a wheel cart you are rerring to is a class of equipment called "field expediant".

Victor3 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2009, 12:51:59 AM »

Quote from: Double D on July 29, 2009, 05:40:41 AM

Victor the idea of a wheel cart you are rerring to is a class of equipment called "field expediant".

Understood. I'm curious though - Could field expediant also be considered historically correct in some situations?

I suppose it might depend on if an item were documented somewhere, and how extensively it was employed (?)