Author Topic: Picture of a coehorn mortar on carriage (Read 4575 times)

KABAR2 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 30, 2009, 01:05:56 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on July 30, 2009, 12:51:59 AM

Quote from: Double D on July 29, 2009, 05:40:41 AM
Victor the idea of a wheel cart you are rerring to is a class of equipment called "field expediant".

Understood. I'm curious though - Could field expediant also be considered historically correct in some situations?

I suppose it might depend on if an item were documented somewhere, and how extensively it was employed (?)

If documented and shown to be used by a certain unit I would say a re-enactment group would be justified in reproducing it,
but if documented and everyone started building them just because one can be documented would be crazy from the standpoint
of say 8 or 10 of them running around in a field would give the wrong impression of history.

as far as individual personal use why not, even if not documented......... it would make it easier getting it to the firing line and would
not draw as much attention as say a hand truck, it would of course depend on the event and weather or not the event staff would allow it.

to me I equate it to those little wagons the cowboy action shooter use to move their guns around.......... historically inaccurate but practical

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 30, 2009, 02:01:32 AM »

WW2 was definately one of the best examples of field expedient. many of the shotguns used during ww2 were standard hunting shotguns with short barrels used by the US forces. In fact alot of them the only thing that they have in common were being 12 ga. Of course most of these have acceptance stamps to provide the needed proof they had been used, obiviously its easier to obtain documation for WW2 than for the war between the states.....

Double D · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2009, 02:49:25 AM »

Historical evidence of field expedience.

British 8inch Mortar.

Boer modification for field use.

THe Boers were an organized Militia and fought like a mounted infantry. The need for mobile support dictated field expediant modifications.

Victor3 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 31, 2009, 12:51:03 AM »

DD,

I saw that pic in the other thread, and it didn't hit me until now that that's an axle sticking out of the bed.

I was thinking it was just a point to dig under with a pole for aiming. I didn't notice the trail either; thought it was just part of the framing stuff there (right next to the WHEEL. DOH!).

Victor3 - "The unobservant"

Artilleryman · « **Reply #34 on:** July 31, 2009, 04:50:29 AM »

It would be interesting to see how they took the wheels on and off.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #35 on:** July 31, 2009, 04:54:14 AM »

This wasn't some thrown together, mobile wooden mortar bed; these photos of drawings aren't the best quality, but they show how the wheels were removed to position the mortar on the ground, and how the mortar bed pole was attached to a limber for transporting it.

How's that for service Norm?

Double D · « **Reply #36 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:00:09 AM »

BoomJ,

What is the source of those prints? The mortar looks like Seeppot.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #37 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:28:06 AM »

DD,

These drawings are taken from New Zealand artillery enthusiast Wally Ruffell, but unfortunately he doesn't notate where he got them from, and the only description he gives of this mortar and bed is "SBML 10-inch on travelling carriage limberred up."

"The Mortar" by W.L. Ruffell

PM Fourie · « **Reply #38 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:44:56 AM »

DD
I agree with you. The block that support the mortar front look identical to the one on the Seep Pot.

Pieter

Max Caliber · « **Reply #39 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:54:08 AM »

The procedure shown for dismounting the mortar is the same procedure used on muzzle loading field guns to dismount/mount barrels on carriages. Most field gun barrels required that a hole be dug in the ground to accommodate that part of the muzzle end which extends beyond the wheels. This is is a fairly easy process, even with the heaviest barrels.

rampa room artillery · « **Reply #40 on:** July 31, 2009, 08:06:15 AM »

cannnonman is there any documents showing this mortar was used in the american civil war?? or was it around at the same time period?

rick bryan
3rd va co B
NSSA

carronader · « **Reply #41 on:** July 31, 2009, 08:15:46 AM »

or if you're a Prussian, you call....the ZZZ.

GGaskill · « **Reply #42 on:** July 31, 2009, 11:28:20 AM »

Although the mount doesn't look American, the barrel looks very much like an 1840 Siege mortar.

This one is a 10 inch.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #43 on:** July 31, 2009, 04:30:32 PM »

Boom J thanks for posting the drawings showing how to dismount the wheels. Max Caliber described the process that I am familar with in this regards. I have used that process several times with smaller guns. I preferred a hoist for the bigger ones. The "how did they do that" is almost as interesting as the shooting process.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #44 on:** August 03, 2009, 05:07:38 AM »

Norm,

After reading your post, and seeing Carronaders artwork, I got to thinking about a reproduction of a Civil War era field gin (tripod fitted with a windless and a series of bocks and tackles) used to mount and dismount barrels. Have you (or anyone else) ever seen a demonstration of one of these used at an NSSA meet, or reenactment event? I think that it would be interesting to see a video of one of these in action.

Double D · « **Reply #45 on:** August 03, 2009, 05:22:28 AM »

How a bout a still picture.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #46 on:** August 03, 2009, 05:37:28 AM »

Thanks DD. Ive got some stills, and some good pics of a well made scale model, but it would be neat to see one actually lifting a barrel off of (or mounting a barrel on) a field carriage.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #47 on:** August 03, 2009, 11:11:40 AM »

The above photo of Hardaway's Battery using a gin is about as authentic as you can get. They use this setup everytime they shoot in the N-SSA mortar competition.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #48 on:** August 03, 2009, 11:25:27 AM »

Not knowing much about the mortor.
But I thought the neat thing about the Cohorn was the base and how it tranfered energy into the ground and not latterly.
this the platform stayed stable and the gunners needed to adjust fire was swivel the gun for windage and add or subtract powder for range. and make sending rounds down range faster.
The cart would, if it could withstand the force down, move making each shot a ranging shot rather than firing for effect.
Also if you look at the base of the mortor it has the hand hold carry handles for field use.
I think this is a cart for either moving the mortor around a fortress quickly and then setting it on the ground to fire to repell assaults or counter battery fire where one or two men can move the motor while the other members of the crew move the tools and projectiles.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #49 on:** August 03, 2009, 01:51:07 PM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on August 03, 2009, 11:11:40 AM

The above photo of Hardaway's Battery using a gin is about as authentic as you can get. They use this setup everytime they shoot in the N-SSA mortar competition.

It is a fine photo Norm, I saved it as soon as I saw it (thanks DD). Maybe one of the board members will be at an event with a digi-vid camera, and record Hardaway's Battery lifting, or setting down the M1841 siege mortar, using the gin.

cannonmn · « **Reply #50 on:** August 14, 2009, 12:32:31 PM »

I got them to send me some more photos of it, see what you think. There seem to be some things in these that you could not tell from the other photos.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #51 on:** August 14, 2009, 05:44:10 PM »

Like the steel liner that's just one more indication that this is an authentic piece. Do all of these oddball mismatched barrels and carriages, fantasy mortar, etc., come from the same estate?

cannonmn · « **Reply #52 on:** August 14, 2009, 05:47:51 PM »

There were several mismatched barrel/carriage combinations in the estate.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #53 on:** August 15, 2009, 07:45:03 AM »

Another suspect cannon in this auction is an original U.S. piece that has had a Confederate flag engraved over it

they are claiming this is original and period done and therefore enhances the value,

if they can truly prove to me this wasn't done say.... by the owner back in the 1950's when there wasn't as much value placed on these cannon by showing provenance.....

To date I have seen too many fakes in Civil War stuff to give this any credit.

Double D · « **Reply #54 on:** August 15, 2009, 09:23:52 AM »

I suspect the owner of those cannons in the auction did not get hung up on historical accuracy, but was more concerned with the spirit of things...he would have fit right in with us.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #55 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:42:04 AM »

Quote from: Double D on August 15, 2009, 09:23:52 AM

I suspect the owner of those cannons in the auction did not get hung up on historical accuracy, but was more concerned with the spirit of things...he would have fit right in with us.

Yes but the auction house should have done their research rather than let the old buyer beware stand, poor form on their part.

cannonmn · « **Reply #56 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:13:40 PM »

Quote

Yes but the auction house should have done their research rather than let the old buyer beware stand, poor form on their part.

They rarely care, they want stuff to sell high.

The mortar sold for $12,500. A completely repro Gatling gun that wasn't even a good repro sold for $60K in same auction. Both items were advertised as original, rare etc.

GGaskill · « **Reply #57 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:21:44 PM »

A completely repro Gatling gun that wasn't even a good repro sold for $60K in same auction. Both items were advertised as original, rare etc.

That would seem to open them to legal action if the buyer found out and cared.

cannonmn · « **Reply #58 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:52:25 PM »

Quote

That would seem to open them to legal action if the buyer found out and cared.

The auction house has the front of the catalog filled with disclaimers, they take no responsibility for the accuracy of the descriptions, so they're covered as far as I can see.

How many people read the fine print though?

Caveat Emptor!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #59 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:05:15 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on August 16, 2009, 03:13:40 PM

Quote
Yes but the auction house should have done their research rather than let the old buyer beware stand, poor form on their part.

They rarely care, they want stuff to sell high.

The mortar sold for $12,500. A completely repro Gatling gun that wasn't even a good repro sold for $60K in same auction. Both items were advertised as original, rare etc.

You could tell the 45-70 Gatling is a fake just by the crudely cast Colt name plate, but it was easy to see that that beautiful Colt Model 1883 .45 caliber Gatling is the real deal without even getting a glimpse of the name plate; what did that one go for?