Author Topic: Do You Need a semi auto rifle? (Read 3162 times)

don heath · « **on:** July 29, 2009, 02:48:14 AM »

Following the thread- is one enough, I get the feeling that a significant number of folk regard a Semi Auto rifle as important if not essential for a survival rifle.

bearing in mind that in any survival situation, whether you are barricaded in your home holding off a mob or hightailing it through the wilderness, you will (should) be acting purely defensively - to what extent do you belive that
a) Semi Auto is essential
b) Useful
c) irrelevant

Confidence in ones ability and equipment being absolutely essential to survival, ones choice in rifle cannot be 'wrong' - this is just for interest...and to get folk thinking.

WD45 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:10:21 AM »

I'll tell ya Don, I have given this a lot of thought lately. I would go with the useful answer. I would not say it is essential. If you are barcaded in your home trying to defend yourself from a large mob of people it's just a matter of time befor they over run you. Now it all depends on how big the mob is and how many are with you. I take a look at my own house and it would be a joke to try and defend.
There are to many windows. It is a frame house and any type of high power rifle would go right through the walls. Any one with a box of matches could burn me out fairly easily. If you are high tailing it through the wilderness trying to get away from a mob you could only drag so much ammo with you anyway. Your main objective would be to get away with your life and avoid contact with your enemy.
Those fellas down at the alamo took out a good bit of thier foe.... But they were over ran and they all died. I think the biggest problem we would face if crap really hits the fan is the large roaming mobs of people there will be. City type dwellers do not think as we do and there are a lot of them that would not be searching through the country side by themselves after they have scavenged everything from the city they can.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2009, 05:23:53 AM »

The semi auto part isn't quite as important a feature as the large capacity and detachable magazine that those semi autos can come with. A lever gun meets most of the requirements of the "survival gun", for my money the loose shells in my pocket aren't anywhere as handy as a loaded twenty rd mag. Imagine a BLR with a twenty round mag, now that wouldn't give up much to an AR.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:20:44 AM »

I did purchase a combo home defense/hunting rifle in a mini 14. Had some stuff I wanted rid of and this deal came along. Only shot target with it. The only semi auto rifle I own. $:-\$

BBF · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:30:44 AM »

Once you get to a certain age this is all irrelevant. You'll be lucky to empty out effectively your sixshooter.

burntmuch · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:41:45 AM »

I would like a semi auto .223 or a lever action .357. Ive got a safe full of bolt actions & single shot rifles. If put in a need to feed the family mode. Im comfortable with what I got. But to defend y family. A semi or lever action would be nice. Cant swing a new gun right now , & I cant bring myself to sell one to buy a semi or lever

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:51:13 AM »

Depending on what you face and where you are a rifle itself may not be a good choice . That said at home being attacked seems a M1-A with 20 round mags aplenty or such would be a nice asset to have along with a hi-cap shotgun . If you wish to survive it would be best to not get caught with your pants down and trapped in an undefendable position .
So on the move or relocated to a hide a good bolt gun may be a good choice less things to break . Like mentioned ammo transport is a concern , maybe a stash in a couple places you can recover is in order . If you are really bent on survival then you know any shot you fire will at least alert others to your location and at worst draw fire . Nither good !
If i had to tote a rifle all the time i would want one that carried like a 30 carbine and shot like a M1-A . If you are attacking for some reason and fire from the same position 5 or more times you can be assured of drawing fire . If you are running and want to slow those after you one well placed shot would have that effect .
So the real ansewer is maybe you do , but you really don't know until you really need it if you ever do .
The same goes for a handgun .
If you favor a shotgun and understand them you already know !

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:51:49 AM »

If the crowd wants to get you, they will probably do just that. But in the case of the Rodney King beating and the rioting that followed after the initial vertic, there were a few shop and home owners who stood on top of their residence with firearms. The crowd avoided these places for easier pickings.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:55:31 AM »

those folks were not hungry just whipped into a rampage by there leaders for show .

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2009, 12:03:03 PM »

I bought a pump .223 that takes AR 15/ M16 mags IMHO high cap is more important than high rate of fire.

Just a small example but our troops mostly use the M16 on single shot the other side mostly use AKs on full auto. Look at the numbers of kills to deaths of well trained shooters taking aimed shots is compared to untrained mobs spraying bullets around.

Learning to shoot correctly and keeping calm, will do more than spraying bullets.

teamnelson · « **Reply #10 on:** July 29, 2009, 12:49:52 PM »

is semi-auto essential, useful or irrelevant for a survival situation?

Everyone uses the military as the justification for semi-auto large cap magazine rifles for survival. This to my mind is irrational for two reasons: 1) Logistics. Truth of the matter is, there are now 12 support personnel to every 1 trigger puller in the USMC (there were only 8 when I first joined in the 80s and I did a hitch in the arms room). The Army's tooth to tail ratio is even higher, like double. Part of the support system is larger arms rooms, with access to supplies of parts (firing pins, springs, magazine springs & followers, gas tubes, etc). After 2 tours with an Infantry battalion (forward deployed, daily fighting in hostile climate - hot, dusty, etc., with user maintenance) I am convinced that the logistical support requirements for a gas operated magazine fed platform are larger than I want to manage, much less saddle my wife and kids with if I'm killed or injured. Granted I've only carried every TO infantry weapon issued to Marines since the mid-80's 'til now, so I can't speak to the maintenance and reliability of other platforms, although my guess is that it would be the same or less than what we carry, not better.

2) Likelihood of force on force firefights. The military exists for force-on-force engagements. Large capacity rapid fire weapons are a tactical advantage, but not by themselves. There's combined arms doctrine, fire and maneuver, and whole lot of other things that are more vital to success than sheer volume of fire. If you're planning to need large cap rapid fire weapons for survival then perhaps "survival" isn't what you're interested in. Maybe "revolution" or "resistance" is really what you're preparing for, in which case a semi-auto weapons would be preferred, as well as grouping together with other folks, all of whom use the same platform with the same ammo, and maybe somebody who's been trained to coordinate fire drills. Your little group will need an armorer for each dozen shooters, with parts and training, as well as a steady supply of ammo. If you're on mixed platforms, you just exponentially complicated your job.

If the weapon's primary purpose is survival with a secondary use of defense or offense against superior numbers, then I would not go with a semi.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:17:27 PM »

I think semi auto rifles are good, but I don't think that they are truly 'must have' survival tools. A rifle of some kind is must have equipment, but semi auto vs bolt vs lever is not that big a deal. As TeamNelson points out, militaries use them but this discussion revolves around families and /or individuals.

As important as a rifle is, the real keystone of defensive firearms is the handgun. What they lack in offensive distance capability they make up for in being on your person when you need it. If there is any sort of social breakdown or what have you, you will still need to go about your life. Will you carry an AK47 with you to buy groceries? Probably not. It would make you a target, a 'combatant'. No matter how extream a situation becomes, there will still be a certain amount of plain old day to day life. It may be different, but you will still have to work, get food, so on. A guy with a rifle looks like a guy with a rifle. A guy with a pistol concealed under his coat looks like everybody else. While a person working on a farm may have a long gun handy, most people would invite more trouble than they would deter by moving around with one.

To respond to the original topic: I have to say no. You don't need to have a semi auto rifle. It's not a bad thing to have one and I wouldn't advise against getting one, I just have to admit that it isn't really a need. A rifle is a need, but the action is negotiable. A handgun is also a need, again action is negotiable.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:37:51 PM »

B useful

and as stated above a hand gun is essential

best to have agood asortment as conditions change

and things break better to have spare guns than spare parts

hillbill · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:21:06 PM »

a lot of semi auto guns are just good accurate reliable guns. any good accurate reliable gun would come in handy in a survival situation. some are fairly cheap and of decent quality, again a qualification for a survial gun. a gun with a high cap mag is also effective at maybe shutting down a situation before it starts.single shots have always been my favorite type guns but i dont think id be packin one if there were many suspicous characters in the area.

don heath · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2009, 08:07:25 PM »

TeamNelson- good points. Having fought sundry bad guys who were armed with AK47's and RPD's when I had a) a bolt action rifle, b) a shotgun (Semi Auto 10 or pump 12) and c) sundry semi or full auto rifles, - It still amaizes me how much ammo you go through with a semi auto rifle, and how the ability to keep fireing tends to fix you to one spot - one tends to keep shooting till the mag is empty and then roll and move whilst you re-load.

Re the maintainence- yup and F.N. FAL takes lots of TLC to keep it working reliably. More than my wife would know how to give.

re a handgun- 100% agree it is more essential than a rifle.

re mobs - having faced a couple, it is impressive how quickly an angry mob of 2-3000 can vanish off the street when one man with a shotgun steps into the road and lets a couple go! Also, Only well trained and well led professionals push home attacks in the face of eaven reasonably accurate defensive fire. When there is incomming , nobody seems keen to die to give his mates a chance to close...Most 'malitia' mobs try and shoot it out from a distance, and here a man with a scoped rifle beats a mob with AK's every time.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2009, 02:07:37 AM »

what ever you pick everyone in your group should be proficent with it .

Blue Duck · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:19:23 AM »

Are we talking about shooting people or food? Two different things. Are we talking about surviving starvation or your neighbors?

WD45 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2009, 04:11:25 AM »

Blue Duck, I think it would probably be both. This is all speculation to a certain point a no one knows what will really happen till it happens. Team nelson and Don have some very good points there. The military has resources we do not and will not have and dont always do things cause they make sence and are the best choice. There is a lot of politics in the small arms the military uses. I had a couple great uncles that fought in the moros uprising. They had nothing good to say about the gov 38's they were originally issued and were happy as a pig in the mud when they were re issued 45's and pump shotguns

teamnelson · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2009, 08:55:21 AM »

WD45, good point on the politics involved in Military selection of weapons. A good friend of mine was working at Beretta when they landed their first contract. We later served together in the Marines, and he visually demonstrated to us, using all of our M9s, the flaws, burrs, shortcuts, etc. that were employed to maximize profit. I also served a Col who had worked in the office that selected future weapons. The contracts are negotiated with the understanding that the buyer will also buy parts & training contract, and supply armorers for support. They sell the gun at next to no profit because they will make it up in maintenance; we buy the gun cheap knowing that we have full time maintainers. And individual Marines wind up buying parts for their personal weapons anyway.

Don makes a great point too. I sincerely doubt all the AR/AK owners in the US are familiar with fire and maneuver. They will plant themselves behind what they believe to be sufficient cover, and have junior feed them mags while they fight off the hordes. Flash supressors are not designed for stationary shooting at the sustained or cyclic rate - they were developed to reduce flash signature while used at single fire from cover and concealment so that the source of fire would be difficult to determine. Its not an invisibility cloak, and if you fire off a magazine from a stationary position, any of my Marines can plant a single round in your melon before youre dropping and reloading mag 2 ... probably before your 1/2 way through mag 1. Again, the weapon does not automatically give superiority - its the training and practice in conjunction with warfare doctrine that does.

Should probably mention ammo and gas operated/recoil/blowback actions. Military only uses specific loads, because they reliably cycle the actions MOST of the time, not all - the AR has a built in assist, that should tell you something. If you have access to a pallet of the ammo that you know reliably cycles your semi, and you can either hide or transport that pallet (since you don't want to be tied down in a survival situation), then you're golden. Take the 10/22 which is on every survivalist list of must haves - I like 'em, have a couple. But it does not reliably feed and fire every type of .22 out there, and I expect that more people have caches of .22 than any other caliber. But my bolt-action .22 happily devours everything I have.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2009, 02:54:40 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on July 30, 2009, 08:55:21 AM

If you have access to a pallet of the ammo that you know reliably cycles your semi, and you can either hide or transport that pallet (since you don't want to be tied down in a survival situation), then you're golden.

That right there is key. The bottomless cup-o-ammo. You can do alot with that.

burntmuch · « **Reply #20 on:** August 02, 2009, 09:42:55 AM »

That brings up another point. Having enough ammo. what caliber is popular enough. Long term, if you cant replenish your supply cuase you are using an obsolete or off the wall caliber. Your gun may become a club.
Thats why Im thinking 357, 22lr or 30-30 wouldnt be bad choices. Sad but true, I dont own a 30-30. But I own a 357 max rifle &a 357 revolver. That may end up being my choice. Sorry that may be a bit off topic.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 02, 2009, 02:39:09 PM »

I would say b) Useful as well.

Things that I think factor into the equation:
You USED to be able to get 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm ammo drastically cheaper than commercial centerfire like 270 and 30-06. Not so much anymore. But there is still plenty out there that may turn up in an emergency scenario. The arms chambered for that ammo tend to be semi-auto, though the Rem 7615 seems like a good compromise.

That being said, 30-06 is also out there and would still be made here at similar cost if say imports were cut off by treaty, sanctions, blockade, etc. So I would think that a good bolt or pump action 30-06 is at least as important to have as a semi-auto. Possibly even a 30-30 as well.

I would also throw in a few tradeoffs that you have to manage. You can get a semi-auto AK or AR at about the same size and weight as a 30-06 bolt action. Used to be the same cost too. So you trade range, energy, and inherent accuracy for rate of fire. But if you spend more on rifle and ammo you can get a heavier 308 semi-auto, ie a G3 or FAL for more energy and a much larger gun. Or you could spend even more and get a lighter weight, higher accuracy semi-auto in the AR-10. For that price you could have bought a 30-06 and an AK, but here you have it all in one rifle.

Sort of like 4x4s. Need off road capability only? Jeep. Need to haul? 2wd pickup. Need both? 4x4 pickup. Need room for a family? Minivan. All of those used to be available under $20k. Need to do all of the above? Now you're at $40k+ with a Suburban/Excursion with aftermarket lift or a Quigley van. Only you know whether you need all of those features, or if you need them all in one item.

Swampman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 02, 2009, 02:45:59 PM »

I don't even want a semi-auto rifle. I don't like them.

torpedoman · « **Reply #23 on:** August 02, 2009, 04:14:56 PM »

I have my grand fathers and uncles guns all are single shot. pa said anything else wasn't fair

don heath · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2009, 12:32:57 AM »

Torpedo man- survival is about ..er just that, survival. Fair has nothing to do with effciency or Survival. Only those who are hunting for sport can indulge in fair play, have ethical considerations etc. In any survival situation that abomination, the wire snare is a far more sucessful means of hunting than a rifle. Cruel and unethical, yes. Efficient- oh yes.

In a fire fight- 'my idea of a fair fight is clubbing seals' - I forget which US general said that (gulf war) but it is soooo true. Our anti poaching teams killed alot more poachers when they learned to shoot sleeping men in the back

Oldshooter · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2009, 01:35:39 AM »

A Lotta very interesting and good information on this thread. You military guys have a very good perspective about firepower and use of same. I like the clubbing seals approach!

Most all of us have homes that would be better to attack than defend!

If things go to shove I have a big family and church support group and hopefully they would be around and would be of assistance in the defense mode. Making it very uncomfortable and costly for folk "crashing" this party. "we" plan to grow and catch food and use weapons to defend the farm.

I have a couple of semi autos and lever guns that would be my main line of defense if it came to that. cause it dont make sense to bring a muzzle loader for crowd suppression.
Other than that I have made no real plans.

I will continue to watch this thread with interest and amusement.

WD45 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2009, 04:00:43 AM »

FAIR ... This is no boxing match we're talking about here.

Dustyvance · « **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2009, 04:07:47 AM »

NEED an auto, probably not, fun to use and shoot every once in a while YOU BETYA!!

mechanic · « **Reply #28 on:** August 03, 2009, 04:23:55 AM »

I have an SKS, but in a bad situation, my first thought would be to get my family away from it. In doing so, if possible, I would take the 22 because I can carry lots of ammo easily, and it will provide food without drawing a lot of attention.

If I had to fight it out at home, I would probably grab whatever was closest to hand and loaded, and at this moment that would be a wheelgun.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2009, 04:34:26 AM »

22 in the eye beats an sks in the arm every time