Are corporate profits immoral? Bailouts anticapitalist? Taxes virtuous?

[skarke]

I've always found it perplexing that many Americans (including conservatives) find large industry profits problematic.  In fact, they believe that "excess" profits should be taxed at massive rates, even if the profit percentage is comparable to smaller corporations.  Barbara Boxer proposed that the oil industry should be taxed "windfall profits" taxes of 90% on oil profits generated last Summer.  The problem is (to me) that we never hear of proposals to address equally large losses of corporations when commodity prices fall.  The oil producing companies are reporting this week.  Profits have fallen 76% from last summer.  $50 oil is breakeven point, $30 oil is catastrophically destructive. HMMMM..., where's the clamor for rescue as oil prices fall?

Moving on to our manufacturing industries, the US now has the highest corporate tax rates of any industrialized country.  These tax policies have been a driving force pushing manufacturing overseas.  American corporations are exposed to confiscatory taxes, unreasonable tort liability, exhorbitant labor costs, and pitifully poor management.  The results?  Our economy has moved from nearly 70% of jobs in the US being manufacturing or farming to under 20% (12% manufacturing of any kind).  To replace the income, we borrow for everything (cars, groceries, big screens, police, fire rescue, Social Security, you get the point)  So, what do we do?  We take the people's money and bail out our core industries with billions of dollars to "save" the few remaining in business.  Is this anticapitalist?  Is it right to hate the managers who took the bailouts and are catching the brunt of Amercan distain, or is this economic collapse perfectly predictable given the nature of politics and business in America today?  Our country only needs so many hamburger flippers and insurance salesmen.

What about shifting the tax burden to our industries, rather than taxing consumers?  Do we really believe that these tax costs don't affect the price of their goods?  It sure is an easy sell for our politicians to convince the huddled masses that they (the politicians) won't tax them, instead, they'll tax those big corporations, because everybody knows that corporations are inherently evil.

Scapegoating is a very effective tool to gain votes, sympathy, etc.  Why do we hate our industries so completely?  It wasn't 20 years ago that America promised that any young buck willing to work hard could achieve anything, and this was a virtue.  Now we hate rich people as if they were Satan incarnate.  I just don't understand it.

Please, somebody explain it to me.

[Questor]

I prefer to deal with successful companies. They're successful because they deliver good products or services with good value for the money and of high quality. Competition makes them that way and keeps them that way.

[Oldshooter]

Skarke, I definitely follow your logic, and agree with the premise that the Industry that built this country into what it was, is not the problem. The problem here is that the current administration thinks it is industries fault(it is an oppressor). Not only that but he plays to the masses that think that government is and should be the big sugar daddy that provides everything! They dont realize that industry and big corporations provide the means for those that want to excel and improve their lot in life. Life and living aint a free ride you get out what you put in, and there is no guarantee of that!

The representatives that espouse taxing oil companies do so to continue the class warfare that gets them elected when they continue to only expand the bureaucracy that is putting a strangle hold on our economy now. Kalifornia is a great example of how this is where we are headed! So much bureaucracy and taxation that they are going down the tubes and dragging everyone else with them! Now they are cutting school budgets to help out, go figger that!

[blind ear]

If corps are taxed before growth investment or research ivnestment and then grow and R&D out of profits rather than pre tax It would put the corps in the same position as wage earners. Something of that nature would seem more equal. eddie

[Oldshooter]

Eddie I'm not sure i follow that train of thought but as soon as the large corporations are put on the same level as wage earners then our economy and the greatness of this country as we know it and how it came to be great will be done, over, finis, caput!  I'm thinking that is exactly where the present administration thinks we should be......all dependent on the government for our daily bread.

If the wealthy get no return on their investment then there is no reason to invest. After all they take all the risk, Wage earners, like myself only risk their time and are paid for that time at a level they agree to at the time of employment. If they feel that it is not a fair compensation they are entitled to seek other employment.

[Oldshooter]

Yep but thats not business, If i do business it is for monetary return! and if there is no profit from it i rarely do it!

Now this does not include my private and personal relationships.

And no one should profit from usury legal or not! and don't get me started on government intervention.

Earning collosso profits from someones sickness, misery, or bad luck seems to go against the teachings as well

I agree totally, but I do not agree with government run medical care unless it was for catastrophic illness and only then under tight oversight by Medical professionals. but i digress!

[skarke]

Thnaks guys.  I am very much interested, and perplexed, by attitudes prevalent in America today.  For the record, imho:

1.  Profits should be what the market will bear, even if they are huge.  The role of government is one of ensuring a level playing field for all competitors.  Government should be antitrust, antimonopoly, anticolussionary, etc.  It should not in any way favor one industry over another, or one company over anotyher, regardless of how many bribes the politicians are offered:-)

2.  Corporate taxes are oxymoronic.  One cannot tax a corporation.  One can, however, increase taxes on consumers by increasing operating costs of businesses through "corporate" taxation.   The taxes are ultimately bourn by the consumer through higher costs of goods and services.  Government "taxation" of business just makes for good political ammunition.

3.  In essence, my opinion for whatever it's worth, is that profits are good, losses economically cleanse, and it's none of the government's business to get in the way of freemarkets (except as stated earlier)by taxation, bailouts, or favoritism.

4.  Government is at best a necessary evil, and should be minimal.

[blind ear]

But the profit-gain motive has been setup to be primary in our system for a reason.

TM7 hesplain this a little more to this po ignernt country boy.

[rockbilly]

What do you expect from a “gimmme” society where everyone has their palm up looking for a handout? Especially when the elected officials are willing to accommodate them and divide the wealth to those too lazy to work for their share.

Getting government out business’ and establishing a fair and equitable tax for everyone is the best answer. 

[skarke]

That's kind of why I believe that the Govt does have a role in antitrust, antimonopoly oversight.  The problem is that, as I continue to believe, 3 trillion dollars is a lot of money.  It is pretty easy to affect behavior with a few of those crumbs.

[skarke]

TM7, You originalist!!!!  How dare you question comrad Obama and his international conglomerate banking industry buddies.

Suspension of Constitutional limitations would have severely restricted his ability to obligate the American taxpayer to $23 trillion in federal debt by funneling the "money" through the secrecy of "non governmental" officials.

By the time the poor schmo on the street figures out what happened, American world economic domination will be something only found in history books authored by our enemies.