Author Topic: Cannon at Football games (Read 2451 times)

NitroSteel · « **on:** July 29, 2009, 01:23:08 PM »

Does anyone here shoot a cannon at high school football games (in the stadium)? I've had a local member of the BOE mention it to me and have also talked to the head coach about it.

I didn't know if anyone else did this, what type of load you used, and what direction it was pointed in. I am torn in my mind as to whether or not it is a good idea. IF I do decide to shoot after touchdowns, safety is my main concern.

I'd like to hear your ideas about this. Thank you.

NitroSteel.

jlchucker · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:02:24 PM »

Norwich University in Vermont shoots blanks out of a WWII vintage 75mm pack howitzer at their little football stadium each time the home team scores a touchdown. It's placed in back of one of the end zones, and aimed away from the field. That stadium barely holds 4 or 5 thousand, with many wandering around during the whole game on an old dirt running track that goes around the field. Nobody is fenced away from that howitzer, but spectators don't wander too close, either. By the way, in recent years their record hasn't provided that many opportunities for the home teams guncrew to fire off that gun. It's a pleasant spot to watch a fall game on a Saturday afternoon though, what with the foliage and plenty of military pagentry. I usually try to get over there for at least one game a year. Football at a little military college, the same way it must have been way way long ago, before college football got to be really big-time. before the day of the pack howitzer I bet they used a civil war cannon. There seems to be a lot of old artillery pieces placed all over that campus. Odd -I've never seen, over the years, a hippie socialist leftwing whacko at a Norwich game--at least not protesting, demonstrating, or causing trouble. I never heard or read about anybody bitching about firing that howitzer, either, even back when they had winning seasons. I guess it's too far from Burlington or Brattleboro, the San Francisco wannabee towns of the East, for that sort of thing.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:29:42 PM »

there have been several schools that fire school owned cannon, you may run into insurance issues with the school,
I for one applaud your effort, and being knowledgeable helps a great deal but here are some things to think about.......
there was a article written years ago about a high school or college team whose gun failed due to poor safety practices,
it was a bronze core cast cannon and had been over charged with powder and wet wadded,
the cannon had several chaplets blown out the side at least one hit a parked car no injuries.
there was a cannon that failed last year at a game and a student was injured. this is why I mention
insurance issues, these cannon were owned by the schools, yours is privately owned.

I will add there are insurance companies that sell insurance for re-enactment groups, this may be a way or covering oneself
by getting a policy underwritten, maybe someone who currently re-enacts can give you a lead in that direction.

cannonmn · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:39:00 PM »

For the sake of continued cannoneering for the rest of us, I discourage cannons at football games. Use some kind of approved commercial fireworks if noise is desired. The environment at games is simply not conducive to safe cannon firing. I was one of the people who got cannon firing stopped at the Naval Academy in Annapolis. They used an original heavy Dahlgren boat howitzer and changed crew frequently. They also felt obligated to fire a quick second shot for the extra point, which meant immediate reloading and minimum servicing. Straight, heavy ramrods were used. I was glad we stopped it before someone got killed. And yes everyone always has the best intentions, but that's not enough to prevent accidents.

Victor3 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:24:16 PM »

I think if I were to do it I'd go with some kind of a propane-fired gun rather than BP.

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2009, 01:07:54 AM »

I don't have nearly as much of an issue with breechloading BP cannons at football games. That's what the Naval Academy got to replace the muzzle-loader. Obviously with a breechloader, the loader is on the safe side of the cannon, namely behind it. The only problem you run into is people getting in front of the cannon when it fires, because they could still be injured by flame or wadding used in most cannon blank cartridges. Still in my opinion the chances of an injury to the gun crew of a blackpowder blank-cartridge breechloader are infinitely less than with a muzzle-loader.

Propane cannons, suggested by another poster, are even better as far as safety, since there's no wadding, and the flame isn't normally hot enough to cause injury.

Will Bison · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2009, 05:26:26 AM »

Yes, I do. When I was first approached with the idea I was a bit hesitant. After inspecting the area I found a safe spot outside the end zone fence. The gun is pointed away from the field. My blank charge is on the light side.

Bill

GGaskill · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2009, 09:39:08 AM »

You might consider using thundermugs for this since their blast is vertical and they can have several prepared in advance with less expense than several cannon. Alternatively, you could use a gun with a mount that allows a high angle of fire to keep the blast away from fools passing in front of the muzzle.

Victor3 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2009, 11:20:30 PM »

NitroSteel,

I just did a little googling and found a set of plans for an oxy-propane cannon. It uses a barrel made from a large gas cylinder, similar in construction to your bowling ball mortar. Claims to be quite loud.

You could probably convert your mortar to "dual-fuel" (gas/BP) if you were wanting to.

belt fed frog · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:28:57 AM »

my old HS used a Big Carbide cannon looked like the real thing but was carbide powered

Cannoneer · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2009, 05:38:38 AM »

Welcome to the board, Belt Fed Frog. What flavor of artillery do you own/favor, or do you like all types of ordnance?

has_been · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2009, 11:20:31 AM »

A couple of us fire our cannon for touchdowns here in Kansas. We live in a fairly free area. If you go 100 miles east of us I don't think you would get permission from the authorities.

We use a kind of Parrott replica. It was made in 1969 by a couple of fellas who worked for Boeing in Wichita out of seamleass steel tubing (like used for the landing-wheel struts for commercial jet aircraft). They started with a 2.5 inch barrel that had 1/4 inch walls. Then they slip-fit 4 more seamless steel tubes over that one, successively. Fitted so the outside one was heated and the inside one was pulled from the deep freeze. Then they welded the muzzle end and threaded the breech for a bolt. The bolt was screwed through a final piece that fit over the outside, and this was welded to the outside. At the breech the steel is 2.5 inches thick (5x1/4" tubes).

We shoot a tennis ball out, loaded over 4 ounces of 1Fg Elephant black powder. Makes a most satisfactory bang! Range for the tennis ball at maximum elevation is 125 to 175 yards depending on the wind.

The carriage is an old set of wagon wheels on a fake carriage made of only 1/8" steel. Two channel iron pieces were welded together to make the axle, and flat 1/8" steel cut and welded for the rest. As such, it is not suitable (too weak) for shooting anything but these blanks. HB

dan610324 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2009, 11:46:32 AM »

that mean a 1,25 inch wall thickness in a 2,5 inch bore cannon .

thats thin

recommendation is same wall thickness as bore diameter
ok you just shoot blanks,
but what would happened if someone in the future would load it with a lead, zink or iron ball ??

RocklockI · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2009, 01:17:40 PM »

i'd love to have a cannon shoot on touchdowns . but you'd have to near nuts to risk ...whatever ... in ..the day of the lawyers .

maybe out in the sticks you could get away with it ? i use 'sticks' as a term of endearment.

thelionspaw · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2009, 02:27:16 PM »

I was at the Grand Opening of the Shea Stadium (now history)

The military fired a cannon to celebrate the event with a blank charge from what I remember in a howitzer

It blew the big fence over. I saw it better on the news that night. Now if you think about it, it seemed a safe direction BUT there could have been someone obscured behind the fence

rc

artillerybuff · « **Reply #15 on:** August 25, 2009, 06:59:48 AM »

Why is it more dangerous than firing blanks at a reenactment?

The key is proper crowd control, a correctly/professionally made artillery piece, properly sized blanks, safe drill practices, and of course adequate safety zones around the cannon. Also, wadding should never be used with blanks, ever!

We perform at living history demonstrations, salutes, and football games on public schools grounds. By the way, we are not in the sticks by a long shot. Would you believe Southern California? We always have the total support of the community, School District, Fire Department, and Police Department.

If you want to talk about safety, some of the cannons I see used at reenactments and even live fire events over the years make me cringe. Just because it looks like a cannon and has a place to load powder and a vent for the fuse or friction primer does not mean it is safe to fire. Every so-called accident I have ever read or heard about was directly related to firing an unsafe piece and/or using unsafe loading/firing practices. To me these are not accidents but planned failure and hurt all of us.

Respectfully,

Anthony Variz

dan610324 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 25, 2009, 07:29:49 AM »

welcome to the board Anthony

its always nice to hear that it is more people out there who are concerned about the safety

please let us see what you are shooting

preferably smoke and fire pictures

artillerybuff · « **Reply #17 on:** August 25, 2009, 08:22:25 AM »

Thanks for the welcome Dan.

I currently own two 10 Pdr. Parrotts (fully rifled), one 12 Pdr. Napoleon (full 4.62" bore), and two 24 Pdr. Coehorn Mortars (5.82" bore). All are live fired.

I have previously owned several 6 Pdr's, two 3" Ordnance Rifles, a 12 Pdr. Mountain Howitzer, and a 12 Pdr. Field Howitzer.

In an average year of participation we fire approximately 800-1,000 blank loads. I have been active in this activity for 10 years now. I also make the friction primers for our Battery and one other Battery in our organization, approximately 1,600 per year. We maintain strict adherence to a redundantly safe drill. We have a website at www.batteryd.net

Also, if you are in the area and would like to see our cannons firing full service loads, our local 600 yard 2 day live fire event is every January. For more information please use the schedule link on our website.

Be well~ Anthony

RocklockI · « **Reply #18 on:** August 25, 2009, 08:41:54 AM »

Another shooter ! thats quite a collection you have

. i'd love to see them shoot !

welcome , gary

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** August 25, 2009, 09:03:44 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Artillerybuff.

My take on this topic is that if individuals are of the opinion that they're intelligent enough, have absorbed enough knowledge on the subject, and feel confident that they are not going to injure others, or themselves when firing salutes from cannons at football games, or any other appropriate venue where they would consider the practice safe, that they should go for it.
Having said all this, it's also a very probable speculation that all these folks that we're informed about, that have lost their (and/or caused others to lose) fingers, eyesight, and sometimes lives, were of the opinion that they knew exactly what they were doing. My belief is that there is no way to iradicate these accidents, the simple truth being that there are people out there that should never be involved with cannons, mortars, firearms, automobiles, and for that matter, we could reasonably throw kitchen knives into the mix too. Don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say; I think we should always discuss safety, the more often the better, but many of these accidents are not going to be prevented.
The real bottom line to this dicussion (at least for me) is summed up in the question: Are we going to allow our lawyers, with their current unhealthy state of mind, (which is much more concerned with generating revenue than with trying to achieve any form of justice) to make us cringe with fear, or are we going to at least make a slight effort to oppose their influence over our behavior, and on our societies behavior as a whole? Many of our legislators are lawyers, and it doesn't seem likely that they're going to try to find a cure for this "litigation disease" any time soon, or at least not until we who vote them into office start to make some unequivocal demands of them.

artillerybuff · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2009, 10:01:50 AM »

I think I understand your "bottom-line" Boom J. This is why I am a life member of the NRA. Case in point:
Fairly recently a gentleman had his cannon confiscated while performing demonstrations for a Boy Scout Troupe, something he has been doing for many years. Long story short is he got it back after his day in court thanks to the NRA appointed attorney.

As far as people in general incorrectly using "tools" and getting injured, yes, that has always happened and always will. For example, nearly everyday I see people driving cars who have no business driving a 2,000 lb. to 5,000+ moving object, yet there they are and with a license to do so! My Uncle was killed by a 16 year old driver coming home from the DMV after getting her brand new driver's license. I have been run off the road when a driver did not see my motorcycle, and was once hit by a car who did not see me. I have never seen anyone hurt by firing a cannon.

Any time you put a mechanical device (subject to fail and/or break especially if abused or misused) with a human being (subject to make mistakes) you have the potential for problems.

All we can do is our best, which in my case is DRILL, DRILL, DRILL. Also, as I said previously, with the built-in redundancies in our drill, such as waiting three minutes between firing & loading, worming the foil out every time, double damp & dry sponging, and observing proper loads and safety zones just to name a few, we are as safe as anything can be here on planet earth. Only thing safer would be pretending to load and just yelling BOOM. There is a greater chance of one of my guys injuring his back moving the 2,200 lb. guns around than from loading & firing.

To answer your question, NO, we should not let anyone take away our rights or freedoms. We should not be afraid to live our lives or exercise our rights & freedoms. YES, we need to continue to fight those who attempt to take our rights and freedoms away.

Lastly, I still have never heard of an artillery accident that was not directly related to an unsafe barrel and/or drill. Once the details come out it is always a barrel of unknown background heavily loaded with powder & wadding, AND/OR they did not worm and/or sponge properly, or were speed loading & firing at an alarming rate of fire, or did not follow a structured drill, etc... I am not saying it can never ever happen, just that I have never heard of it.

Be safe, and thanks for responding~ AV

Cannoneer · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:06:06 PM »

Anthony,

I agree with everything you have stated in the above post, including the mutual feeling, that considering our interests, it would be to our advantage to support the NRA.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:08:38 PM »

safety is foremost in everyone's mind no matter what, but when accidents happen they make the news.....

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artillerybuff · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2009, 03:54:53 PM »

They sure do KABAR2, and unfortunately the regular news broadcasts never give the full story on why it happened, just that it did.

I understand the Fort Thomas event happened as a result of attempting to fire a quick second shot. Eliminating safety steps and high rates of fire with muzzle loading artillery is a big NO-NO!

Another so-called accident occurred just two months prior in Scott County when a man walked in front of a cannon as it was fired resulting in injuries to his face, left ear and left eye. I say "so-called accident" because to me this was pure negligence for failing to provide a secured safety perimeter and a total lack of alertness by the man firing the piece. People like that put all of us in jeopardy by giving ammunition to the anti-gun elite.

Anthony Variz

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2009, 04:17:19 PM »

Anthony -

WELCOME to the board!

Issues of safety are ALWAYS welcome for discussion - as the consequenes cannot be reversed!

nematode · « **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2009, 02:10:13 PM »

Interesting topic. Agree that safety is key and it's like riding a motorcycle - if you ride one long enough, you're going to be in an accident. That is what I was told by a group of experienced Harley riders when I took the motorcycle safety class years ago. Didn't take me long to prove them right - less than a year and someone pulled out in front of me. I guess the same is true for cannons. Sooner or later, something is going to happen - do you agree?

That said, I have to tell you all that there is a high school in my area that has traditionally been a powerhouse in sports, mainly football, basketball, wrestling and tennis (did I leave any sport out?) - Caesar Rodney HS. These guys, for all the years I can remember, have a cannon firing tradition at their home field football games. On their sideline they have a mounted dude in full colonial regalia, impersonating the namesake of their school. When the team scores, they fire a decent size cannon from the far endzone - it's charged without a projectile but you feel the percussion in the air... huge bang. If memory serves correctly, they had more than one cannon - maybe 3. Operators were decked out in colonial atire also. Was pretty cool. Haven't been to one of their games in quite awhile and so I don't know if the tradition continues.

GGaskill · « **Reply #26 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:01:11 PM »

This Caesar Rodney High School?

nematode · « **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:08:38 PM »

OMG yes that is them!

Victor3 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:25:44 AM »

Quote from: skip77 on August 26, 2009, 02:10:13 PM

Interesting topic. Agree that safety is key and it's like riding a motorcycle - if you ride one long enough, you're going to be in an accident. That is what I was told by a group of experienced Harley riders when I took the motorcycle safety class years ago. Didn't take me long to prove them right - less than a year and someone pulled out in front of me. I guess the same is true for cannons. Sooner or later, something is going to happen - do you agree?

With motorcycles (as you've found), one doesn't have control over what others on the road may do, regardless of how safely you may happen ride. Road conditions, weather, rider fitness/ability, bike design, mechanical condition, etc. introduce multiple variables that are difficult to control. Given the above, motorcycle accidents are common.

Unlike riding a motorcycle, firing a cannon safely does not present nearly as many variables, and YOU are able to control most of them at all times.

Start with a safely designed barrel, adhere to a few simple safety precautions, and you're highly unlikely to ever experience an accident with one.

artillerybuff · « **Reply #29 on:** August 27, 2009, 06:21:27 AM »

Very well stated Victor3, just the point I have been trying to make.

We could go on & on with other examples of how just living life can result in accidents or injuries. As for myself I may live life a bit larger than most being very active in numerous physical activities and contact sports over the years such as football. I have been riding street and off-road motorcycles for almost 35 years now and plan to ride as long as I am physically able to. I still play softball, water ski, and oh-my-gosh shoot really big guns...

This is not for everyone. Some people who unfortunately own and shoot black powder (or smokeless firearms) have no business being around them. I have been around people at reenactments who get caught up in the moment (heat of battle) and forget everything they have been taught. Ultimately the chief of the piece (person in charge) should have reeled them in and if necessary even called for a cease fire. Safety is more important than ruining an impression. I would rather hurt somebody's feelings than see somebody hurt.

Bottom line IMHO is we do not have to live in a bubble and be afraid to live, however, we do need to be responsible and watch out for each other. And I still have not been shown one single artillery related accident (modern day) that was not directly caused by negligence, and that is no accident. Properly made replica barrels are so much stronger than the originals, and our drill is much safer and redundant as well. After all, we are not being shot at and it is all for fun, so why rush?

Cheers~ Anthony