Author Topic: purchased powder from neighbor can I use it. (Read 1055 times)

casca1 · « **on:** July 30, 2009, 02:38:53 AM »

Got another outstanding deal on some FFFG blackpowder, 10 lbs for $20
can I shoot this through my cannon safely ? was using 2 oz of FG powder ?

always thanks
casca1

dan610324 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:21:14 AM »

INTERESTING AND GOOD QUESTION , BUT IMPOSSIBLE TO ANSWER WITH ONLY THAT INFO

as you use fg now I assume that its somewhere between 3/4" and 1 1/2" in caliber

do you shoot projectiles or only blanks ??

who made your cannon and whats their recomended powder quality and charges ??

what caliber and other dimensions is your gun ??
wall thickness surrounding chamber ??
material ??brass , bronze , steel or cast iron
cast or turned ??
made from a solid piece or with breach plug ??
if with plug , what construction ??

fff gives extremely high pressure peaks compared to fg as its much faster burning powder

but if the cannon is sturdy enough and you use max 1/3 - 1/2 of the usual charge it could be suitable for blanks without wadding in my opinion . make salut charges with 3 layers of doubble folded aluminum foil and glue the ends together with a drop of cyanoacrylat glue

BUT DONT JUST USE IT WITH THE SAME CHARGES AS YOU USE OF FG , EITHER FOR BLANKS OR PROJO SHOOTING .

if you would do that it could be a one end open pipe bomb instead of a cannon

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:25:21 AM »

No, useless stuff, send it to me.

dan610324 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:31:04 AM »

or me

preferably me

John dont need it as he shoots much larger bore cannons

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:36:50 AM »

The answer is maybe. Small cannons can use this powder. The problem with using this fine grade in the larger cannons is the faster burn rate, thus greater pressure. The example we know is reported in Matt Switliks book and deals with the pressure test he did with equal charges of FG and Cannon grade. In equal charges the FG gave 40% greater pressure with equal velocity over Cannon grade. This is why we say don't use finer grades in larger cannons. Higher pressure for equal velocity.

If you use FFFg in larger cannons you can reduce charges to keep pressures down, but this reduction will also lower velocities...there is a point of diminishing returns.

Now, I would not buy a can of FFFG to shoot in any of my cannons. But if some one offered me 10 lbs of FFFG for $20 I would buy it. Good deal you made.

dan610324 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:41:21 AM »

it will be a lot of firecracker charges

at 6 grains each

cannonmn · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:41:45 AM »

I use FFFG in my anvil launcher, it eats two pounds each shot. The 110 lb. anvil goes up over 500 feet. When we can find a place that will let us shoot it, that is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeNP4i47oeU

dan610324 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2009, 03:48:34 AM »

holy macarony , are you into anvil launching also ??
Ive just seen a few videos at youtube about it a few years ago . but it looked extremely fun .

hehehe , it seem to be a little troubble to locate and recover the anvil

cannonmn · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2009, 04:08:11 AM »

In competitive anvil launching, score it for two things, height and how close to the launcher the anvil lands. I hit my launcher once with the anvil by accident, so I don't try for such precision any more, within about twenty feet is fine with me. I don't do competitive anvil launching either, simply no interest in that. If you take care to ensure the launcher is perfectly level, the anvil will come down close to the launcher, only moved horizontally by the wind and the rotation of the earth.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2009, 04:09:21 AM »

Dan,

Anvil launching is a tradition started by blacksmiths celebrating our 4th of July,
I guess they didn't have a thundermug and discoverd the hollow in the base of
an anvil would hold a fair charge of powder from this old tradition it grew more reciently
into a compitition to see who could get an orbital anvil...... Cannonmn with his cannon breech
is getting close I think he needs to find a breech that will hold MORE powder.

and back to the subject of the powder you shouldn't give it to anyone you should sell it at a profit...
to me....... say 25.00.......

dan610324 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2009, 04:11:49 AM »

my bid is 26

GGaskill · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2009, 09:33:59 AM »

my bid is 26

Plus freight to Sweden.

casca1 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:30:46 AM »

ok, gave it a proof shot
5oz FFFG in ziplock bag
projectile 1 pop can full of concrete with duct tape to help seal it up tight
2 grocery store plastic bags for wadding
10 inch cannon fuse to get far enough away

cleared the trees, over the kankakee river
scared the daylights out of the nieghbors boy, will they be gald when I get called back to work on Monday.
casca's home built fires again

Backswampcub · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2009, 04:22:26 PM »

What part of the Kankakee river. There are some parts that run in and through Momence that are pretty wide. I lived there for 2 years right on the river. If it is anywhere on river road in Momence you might want to cut that back a wee bit.

BoomLover · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2009, 06:46:50 PM »

Let's see...5oz fffg, zip lock bag, 2 wadded up plastic shopping bags, a pop can of concrete, with duct tape...that home made must be 10 inches thick! 5 oz fffg....wow! BoomLover

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:04:54 PM »

That's not a proof load, that is a massive overload. Proof loads are carefully crafted to achieve a specific pressure. Usually 130% mof stnadard work ing pressures.

Not only FFFG but a tight fitting preojectile. That gun has really over stressed. I'd be afraid to shoot it after that.

oyvind · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2009, 09:34:54 PM »

Cannon test in the old days.

After examination are cannon placed in a cannon carriage.
Cannon tested now with a charge of 1/4 ball weight in gunpowder and a ball. There are actually 4 shot after gun regulations (a so-called afblæsing).
Then start the actual strength tests 4 shots:
1.Cannon is charged with ½ cannon balls weight of gunpowder a wad and a cannon ball. (This is called a singelskud)
2.Cannon is charged with ½ balls weight of gunpowder and two balls. The first ball will be placed right on the powder without wading(Double-iron). This is to test the bottom and breech force
3.Then Cannon is charged with 2/3 cannons balls weight of gunpowder and a knippel this is the most difficult test, when a knippel have greater friction against the barrel than cannon ball.
4.The last shot is also a single shot, which is done to see if the cannon has suffered some damage of the previous shot.

mvh

dan610324 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:22:24 PM »

and they did absolutely not use fffg powder

please maka a little note in your last will that we should be informed and I will personaly take care about the collecting of money from the members here and send flowers to your funeral .

Victor3 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2009, 11:41:59 PM »

Quote from: casca1 on July 30, 2009, 10:30:46 AM

5oz FFFG in ziplock bag
projectile 1 pop can full of concrete with duct tape to help seal it up tight
2 grocery store plastic bags for wadding

Please don't do that; it's a recipe for a bore plug and banana-peeled barrel.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 31, 2009, 12:28:04 AM »

RE-READ the section on cannon safety, buy something small to use up the 3fg in.
and DON'T DO THAT AGAIN! we don't want to be reporting on what the news paper
article said about you or your cannon after the tragic or near tragic event........
there have been several articles on home built cannon injuring their owners from over loading
and at least one fatality a boy out in Washington was killed by a chunk of metal hitting him
in the head. Life is too short to take chances like this, we would like to see you here growing
old like the rest of us.

casca1 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2009, 12:27:02 PM »

I agree with you all, I only work as a machinist for caterpillar inc part time, before that I was doing a little stint for UNCLE SAM teaching others in different places How to work the STINGER MISSLE and make IVAN"S life miserable so he would go home. I do know how things go boom and metallurgy

The twin to this cannon barrel , when we did testing for metal stress did not blow up until 18oz of powder was used and that was just a slight split

Guys, thanks for your concern, but it's my mental health you should be worried about because my next one is for shooting softballs fired electricly. ( DC)

I wanna pull this next one with my ATV.

thanks

KABAR2 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 01, 2009, 02:45:44 AM »

Quote from: casca1 on July 31, 2009, 12:27:02 PM

Guys, thanks for your concern, but it's my mental health you should be worried about because my next one is for shooting softballs fired electricly. ( DC)

I wanna pull this next one with my ATV.

thanks

Well stranger thing have been done!

One concern I think most of us have is that others read theses posts, YES your cannon may be over built and could stand shooting with these loads
til the cows come home, BUT some of those who read our posts who visit this board but are not contributing members
may not be as able as you are and think that a 5 oz. load of 3fg is ok in the thin walled cannon or yard ornament he cobbled together,
that is why we recommend more conservative loads with the proper powder, and give formulas for wall thickness,
in the end we want to keep this a safe hobby that will be here for years to come, something to pass along to the next generation,
I would hate to see new laws passed because of my or someone else's actions,
this is a thinking mans hobby one that can bite you if you don't pay attention to what your doing and can be unforgiving of errors or mistakes in judgment.

Quote from: casca1 on July 31, 2009, 12:27:02 PM

. I do know how things go boom and metallurgy

The twin to this cannon barrel , when we did testing for metal stress did not blow up until 18oz of powder was used and that was just a slight split

Even the best cannon foundries have had failures You know metallurgy so I guess you know about the reports on barrel wear on modern military cannon and the micro fractures that
happen in the steels used & how over time they grow, then you have have a better idea on the stresses the metal is under from continuous use,
your cannon may be the best cannon ever built but you are not a laboratory you won't know if the steel used has gotten near the point of failure from repeated heavy firings.

overloading one cannon to the point of catastrophic failure is not a scientific test, it gives you a base line as to where it will fail,
but that failure was with what powder? Fg? cannon grade?
This does not tell you what the cannon will do under repeated heavy firings at a lower charge with a faster burning powder.

I wish you good luck in your endeavors stay safe & have fun.

Allen <><

Victor3 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 01, 2009, 10:11:11 PM »

Quote from: casca1 on July 31, 2009, 12:27:02 PM

I agree with you all...... I do know how things go boom and metallurgy....

If that's the case, why did you bother to ask your original question "can I shoot this through my cannon safely ?" and then disregard clear safety advice posted by both Dan and DD?

prospector86 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2009, 11:20:47 PM »

I've been getting reading the post on this site for a couple years now, learning about black powder so that I can gather knowlage from people that have been working with it for longer then myself. I have to say of all the boards I've seen on the web this is the best one around. Casca1 you say you know metallurgy from the military, I can say as a current artillary man working in a heavy unit, that from the adivse I've read on here, black powder is a diffrent horse compleatly and not to rely totaly on what you learned from your day's in the military.

dan610324 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 02, 2009, 01:58:23 AM »

do you got any photos of the barrel you blowed up ??