Obama Care summerised

[m-g Willy]

I agree that if you break the law you will be penalized,and maybe imprisoned.
But once you are freed you still have your inalienable rights.

To a free man!
 They are absolute!

They are GOD given and can not be taken away!
Look it up in any dictionary. 
If given by GOD then what man ,king, president or government has the right to take them away?
Any free man, be it citizen or alien, they all have these rights!

For more detail check out  http://westernfrontamerica.com/2009/06/29/unalienable_rights/

[scootrd]

Here is my 2 cents .

I am not a proponent of this bill the way it is crafted, I do feel However some sort of heath care reform is needed.
We need to curb the ever rising costs of heathcare in this country before it eats up our monthy paychecks.

The rate at which heath care costs are rising will soon be unattainable for many families to afford coverage.
As an example, At present my employer has cut their overall benefits package , yet raised the amount taken
out of my paycheck each month for less coverage.  I have had to pick up Gap insurance this year to cover the delta.

Last year my employer covered Durable medical equipment up to 80% (insulin pump cost 5,000.00), This past year they decided they will only cover 50% yet also raised my overall premiums 23%. So now I have to come up will 2500.00 out of pocket and at the same time pay 23% more for less benefits than I had last year. (as well as having to pay for gap insurance out of my own pocket).
I am very nervous that God forbid someone in my family has to be hospitalized. We would lose everything when the medical bills
start rolling in. 

I don't know the answer , but we need everyone working together in a non partisan fashion to solve these truly complex issues. Gov't , Insurance companies, Heathcare officials , Doctors, individuals Pharmaceutical industry,  etc.. to stem the rising costs. As for me I just had to take an additional  part time Job just so I can pay for the heath care my family needs. So now I am away from home even more hours each week.

Republican cannot afford to just dig their heals in and just say no. They must offer up ideas and proposals so a well rounded Bill is crafted. Please take the time to read the bill. A majority of the points outlined in the original post are inaccurate. (not what the bill states) It's important to read the bill and know the accurate points that should be debated knowledgeably.


 

[mirage1988]

Here is my 2 cents.

Scootrd, you are lucky to be employed rite now-quit crying about what your employer is or isn't paying for your healthcare!

[Oldshooter]

Listen gentlemen, We need to demand the same system that the prez and the legislature has! they dont want obama med so neither do I! When they get a plan that they want to be on then and only then do i even take a look. cause you see any plan the government runs is gonna be politicised and corrupted!

What in hell is so hard to understand! IF they dont want it then neither do I!

I know this is a scary headline but they aint royalty dagnabbit! So lets cut to the chase, it aint about medical care it is about government control! Since all the folk that the ob1 is worried about get free medical care now unless they dont register for it for some reason like they are a damned fugitive or illegal alien, and most of them get it free anyway!!!!!!    I'm pullin my hair out!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Casull]

I agree that if you break the law you will be penalized,and maybe imprisoned.
But once you are freed you still have your inalienable rights.

Are you really that slow?  If your liberty can be taken as a penalty for committing a crime, so then can other inalienable rights.

To a free man!
 They are absolute!

You ARE wrong.  And, you obviously can't understand why you are wrong.  BTW, a convicted felon (even after release) is not the same "free man" as a law abiding man.

They are GOD given and can not be taken away!

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You already acknowledge that your liberty can be taken away (your most important inalienable right), so why are you having such a hard time understanding that others can be taken away for committing a felony?   

If given by GOD then what man ,king, president or government has the right to take them away?

Try committing a felony and then using that "logic".   

[m-g Willy]

Are you really that slow?  If your liberty can be taken as a penalty for committing a crime, so then can other inalienable rights.



WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You already acknowledge that your liberty can be taken away (your most important inalienable right), so why are you having such a hard time understanding that others can be taken away for committing a felony?   

Ok ,we are just going in circles here.
You have proven over and over again that you can not understand or comprehand what the definition of inalienable is!
Try to google( inalienable rights )
BTW----NEWS FLASH-----
Just because the government does it, doesn't make it legal!!- for example (all gun control over the years) ,(patriot act)

So until you can understand  what inalienable rights are,  you can continue standing with the flock of sheeple!

[JBlk]

As usual congress has exempted its self from the provisions of this bill.If its not good enough for them its not good enough for the American people.

[Dixie Dude]

The free market did deal with it until Medicare and Medicaid came along.  Then our factories moved overseas and gave up good jobs providing health care insurance to their employees.  Then Aids and STD's came along and drained research money away from other areas like cancer.  Part time jobs do not provide insurance.  

1) Bring the factories back and they will provide insurance.  (Start by requiring all Fed, State, and local governments buy only American made products).
2) Use our own resources to solve the energy problem, gives good jobs providing insurance.  
3) Have government step in only when someone is unemployed, retired, or in poverty.  
4) Or Have government provide only preventative care such as vaccines, flu and pneumonia shots.
5) Allow RN's the authority to provide perscriptions for instance, if someone cuts their foot.  RN's to give tetinus shots, and perscribe an antibiotic to the person after dressing the wound.  No doctor involved.  Or if someone has a cold, flu, or something like that, a nurse to give perscription for anti-biotics or anti-viral meds.  

[scootrd]

Here is my 2 cents.

Scootrd, you are lucky to be employed rite now-quit crying about what your employer is or isn't paying for your healthcare!

You are absolutely correct.. I am lucky to be employed right now. I was not crying..I was making a point.

I also entered into a contract with my employer x $$ for x benefits.  have to lock in once a year, and cannot make any changes after benefits selection close date. Yet the insurance industry was allowed to adjust what they will cover mid year and now I have to pick up the additional cost coverage. So that appears to be a one way contract to me only enforceable against the individual. The employer locks me in , then the ins. co. raises the premiums any time they choose and the employer passes the uplift on to the employee. Tell me their not in bed together!!.

Healthcare costs are out of control, and it is going to take our brightest minds no matter what their political affiliation to help reduce overall costs and keep HC affordable for families in the coming years. So if our representatives are gonna say no to HC reform Bill the way it is crafted , I would ask them to please offer up alternatives solutions as well. Just saying NO is not a solution.

It's time to stop playing political football and get down to solving these real issues. Tax Reform, Healthcare reform, Social security. Personally I think the "no Program at all avenue is a good one" put the money back in my check and allow me to shop for my own insurance. And yes let the free market decide.

I wonder how many parents are going to miss their kids Football games or dance recitals cause they are stuck working a second job just to cover HC costs for their families this year.  Explain that to your young child why you can't see them play.

It wasn't crying , it is just fact. So Mirage ...Go bust someone else's chops.

[Dixie Dude]

The Republicans have offered their version of health care reform for several years now, but the Democrats and the Media won't cover it or make light of it.  It is a personal account you can take with you.  You would have a tax credit to pay for it.  You can also buy as much as you want or need with any deductable you want.  But no-one is listening, or won't give that a chance first.  The Socialists want the government to control everything not you. 

[scootrd]

The Republicans have offered their version of health care reform for several years now, but the Democrats and the Media won't cover it or make light of it.  It is a personal account you can take with you.  You would have a tax credit to pay for it.  You can also buy as much as you want or need with any deductable you want.  But no-one is listening, or won't give that a chance first.  The Socialists want the government to control everything not you. 

No , they have not. Under Regan, Bush Senior , and Bush Junior ..we missed the boat. They did not take up health care reform under any of these administrations.  It was interesting because when they have interviewed a number of Republicans in office during these times they admitted they did miss the boat and allowed spending to get out of control. They believe that is why the Dems are the majority now. Because we didn't act upon curbing Govt spending and HC reform when they had the majority.

[Oldshooter]

Oldshooter...Yes, I agree; why don't we have the HC certain governments types have..?  Of course, that would be socialism and you would have to decline taking it for idealogical reasons..

ALL i WANT OUTA THIS IS THE RIGHT TO OPT OUT! DANG BLASTIT!  Read between the d and the t

[magooch]

Actually, there is an existing program which allows people to put money into a medical savings account, which is tax deductable.  This gives some relief and equivalence for folks who do not have employer provided healthcare coverage.  However, I don't know the details about the program.  

The point is that this program could probably be tweaked and might be of some help, but it certainly wouldn't and cannot be the only solution.  Quality healthcare is never going to be cheap; someone, or something has to pay the price.  

There are models out there that work--some of them work very well.  In the Seattle, Washington area, there is a healthcare co-op that is said to be very popular.  I happen to belong to Kaiser Permanente; it is very popular in this neck of the woods.  I think it would be a good thing for Congress to take a look at programs that are working and not try to reinvent the wheel.

The first step, though, is to get the illegals out of the system and find a way to eliminate as much fraud and abuse as possible.  My sister-in-law is an ER nurse at a hospital in Missouri and the stories she tells about those who abuse the system are enough to make you choke.

[Dixie Dude]

The planned ideas I was referring to was offered by Dole years ago, among a few other Republicans.  However you are right, the Rep presidents didn't take it up.  I remember Dole saying with his plan 90% of Americans would be covered with the remaining 10% covered by Medicare or Medicaid.  This was when he was running for President in 96.  His plan never got out of committee. 

I also forgot about the illegals on the system when I listed my ideas above. 

I agree we need some sort of plan.  But the one Obama is pushing is not it.  It needs to remain private, personal, and only government stepping in to help the long term unemployeed, poor, and elderly.  It could be like car insurance.  Everyone must have it, but have a tax credit to help pay for it. 

[Casull]

They are GOD given and can not be taken away!

Then explain the death sentence.   

[m-g Willy]

They are GOD given and can not be taken away!

Then explain the death sentence.   

WOW!!!!

What does that have to do with inalienable rights??
When was the last time that a free man was put to death??
People like you that  accepts whatever the government tells you as fact, is the reason we are losing our rights to a socialist government!
 If we had to depend on people like you we wouldn't have any guns, seeing as some in our government thinks it only pertains to  the militia
And they must be right, seeing they are the government 
Please wake up!!

[Casull]

Quote
They are GOD given and can not be taken away!

Then explain the death sentence.   



WOW!!!!   

What does that have to do with inalienable rights??
When was the last time that a free man was put to death??
People like you that  accepts whatever the government tells you as fact, is the reason we are losing our rights to a socialist government!
 If we had to depend on people like you we wouldn't have any guns, seeing as some in our government thinks it only pertains to  the militia
And they must be right, seeing they are the government 
Please wake up!!

WOW, indeed.  What right is more inalienable than the right to life?  I truly don't see how you can't understand that.  Sheeesh!!!!  Why are you so stuck on this "free man" thing?  Where did I ever say anything about taking away rights from law abiding citizens or accepting whatever the government tells me?  But, if part of the punishment for committing a felony (particularly forcible felonies) is that the convicted felon loses some rights, then I have no problem with that.  Punishment for a felony does not have to be limited to prison time (and there's nothing in the Constitution that says that it has to be so limited).  Do you have a problem with the registering of child sex offenders?  After all, once released from prison, then they are "free men".  So, you go ahead and spout off about something that you obviously know nothing about.   

[Cabin4]

Obama Care Summarized:

Big wasteful government program run amuck.

If anyone thinks our health care costs or taxes will decrease because of Obama Care, you are drinking the cool aid.

Our costs will rise, our taxes will rise and for those already covered (the majority of Americans) will now get sub standard care.

Big wasteful government program run amuck. Spend, Spend, Spend so they must Tax- Tax - Tax so they can control , control, control, YOU.

[Casull]

Cabin, couldn't have said it better. 

[mirage1988]

I wish you all could have seen the 30 faces in the room on jan 14th when they told us our jobs were eliminated.

Here is my 2 cents.

Scootrd, you are lucky to be employed rite now-quit crying about what your employer is or isn't paying for your healthcare!

You are absolutely correct.. I am lucky to be employed right now. I was not crying..I was making a point.

I also entered into a contract with my employer x $$ for x benefits.  have to lock in once a year, and cannot make any changes after benefits selection close date. Yet the insurance industry was allowed to adjust what they will cover mid year and now I have to pick up the additional cost coverage. So that appears to be a one way contract to me only enforceable against the individual. The employer locks me in , then the ins. co. raises the premiums any time they choose and the employer passes the uplift on to the employee. Tell me their not in bed together!!.

Healthcare costs are out of control, and it is going to take our brightest minds no matter what their political affiliation to help reduce overall costs and keep HC affordable for families in the coming years. So if our representatives are gonna say no to HC reform Bill the way it is crafted , I would ask them to please offer up alternatives solutions as well. Just saying NO is not a solution.

It's time to stop playing political football and get down to solving these real issues. Tax Reform, Healthcare reform, Social security. Personally I think the "no Program at all avenue is a good one" put the money back in my check and allow me to shop for my own insurance. And yes let the free market decide.

I wonder how many parents are going to miss their kids Football games or dance recitals cause they are stuck working a second job just to cover HC costs for their families this year.  Explain that to your young child why you can't see them play.

It wasn't crying , it is just fact. So Mirage ...Go bust someone else's chops.

Not bustin your chops scooter, just makin a point, I really hope I get another interview at cabela's, even though it is 13 dollars an hour less than I used to make.

[m-g Willy]

 So, you go ahead and spout off about something that you obviously know nothing about.   

Spout off about something I know nothing about?
Do you have --ANY-- ANY-- idea what an inalienable right is??
If you even had a clue of what you are running off at the mouth about you would have ended this long ago.
So how about telling us some answers 

Is there such a thing as a inalienable right?
If so,,,,what is an inalienable right?
  What difference is there between a (inalienable right) and a (right) granted to us by the government?
And if the government can take both away
Then all rights are just privledges granted to us by the government

[Casull]

Do you have --ANY-- ANY-- idea what an inalienable right is??

The question is, do you have any idea?  Try this one on for size:

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.

"Within limits".  Let me ask this very s l o w l y - D o  y o u  u n d e r s t a n d  t h a t?

Or maybe this from the Declaration of Independence: 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

Now, I ask again, what "inalienable" rights are greater than "life" or "liberty"?  If these can be taken as punishment for crime, why are you so clueless as to how others can be taken as punishment for crime?  Anyway, you have proved your inability to comprehend, as well as your ability to keep hammering at something after being shown to know not what you speak of.  So, you will probably showcase your ignorance once again, but I am through with trying to make you understand something that is above your abilities.   

[billy_56081]

So TM are the drug companies good now? They are supporting thi9s socialist program just like you. It is amazing how little kids want to have thier cake and eat it too.

[m-g Willy]

Do you have --ANY-- ANY-- idea what an inalienable right is??

The question is, do you have any idea?  Try this one on for size:

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others

.(1)------((((( I do not add 'within the limits of the law,'))))))------
because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.

(2)------((((((( that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315)))))-----



(willy)
 Pay close attention to line marked  (1)-Have someone read it to you if you have to.

Line marked (2)-Is talking about abolishing the (government) that is destructive to these rights. Not the individuals rights

The only thing you have proved is that you have NO IDEA of what a inalienable right is.

And you can't answer a question when it is spelled out for you.( your diffinition of inalienable right questions?)

And last but not least, you can't comprehend something when you do read it.

[billy_56081]

So TM are the drug companies good now? They are supporting thi9s socialist program just like you. It is amazing how little kids want to have thier cake and eat it too.

.
Billy as usual you don't have a clue, or a clue what I support. If you have info on what drug companies support why don't you post it here. Otherwise remain clueless in 56081 land.
You are one job away from no healthcare, and I certainly don't want to chip in for your healthcare publicly or thru group insurance rates...I think you should pay your own way 100%; for example if you choke or get sick at BBCue party you're 100% on your own; and I'll pay my way 100%.
Can you comprehend that, maybe...?


.TM7

Ahh TM maybe when your in 56081 land being the comic relief for the BBQ, you can read the link I provided in an earlier post.  TM you never stop cracking me up.

So tell us all TM are you actually serious about the propaganda you spew here or are you just being funny?

[mirage1988]

Billy- tm7 got the moderator tag now so he thinks his sheite stirrin stick turned into a paddle.

[magooch]

 
[/quote]
.
Not sure Magooch, but Kaiser Permanente is not for profit making....isn't that right..?
.
....TM7
[/quote]

Yes, TM, as far as I know, Kaiser is a non-profit.  It is an HMO, or prepaid healthcare plan which my wife and I have been on for many, many years.  No plan is perfect, but I sure can't complain about the care my wife and I have received.  In fact, we're both alive and healthy today, because of the care we have gotten from Kaiser. 

[scootrd]

Not bustin your chops scooter, just makin a point, I really hope I get another interview at cabela's, even though it is 13 dollars an hour less than I used to make.

No harm , no foul,
I will keep my fingers crossed for you the interview goes well. 

I find I am becoming short tempered with the stressful situation many other including myself have been put into with the ecomomy tanking. We use to be a great industrialized  nation that produced quality Products that bore the stamp "Made in USA" proudly. Now we import everything , just to save a few bucks. My neighbor and good friend lost his Job recently. His take home was cut 50% when he accepted a customer service position he is way over qualified for but the only thing he could find just to try and keep income coming into his household. (still not sure he is going to keep his house). His daughter needs braces and his new Job wont cover him with benefits until he has worked there for over 6 months. Middle class (if it even exists anymore) is quickly becoming squeezed out with rising HC , Taxes , etc..  We are becoming the land of "Have's" and "Have not's" with the top 5% of the population owning 90% of the wealth. Which would be fine if trickle down economics worked, but it doesn't seem to. I see very little of the top 5% monies being put to work to create Job growth and stimulate the economy by growing business. They are as gun shy as everyone in this Market and are holding tight to their assets.

Comment regarding "the free man" sub thread taking place here -  Once you are convicted of a felony , even after serving your time  and making restitution  for your crime in society -  some states still do not allow you to Vote , and forget gun ownership.  Not sure what other rights you lose. 

[scootrd]

Not sure Magooch, but Kaiser Permanente is not for profit making....isn't that right..?
.
....TM7
Yes, TM, as far as I know, Kaiser is a non-profit.  It is an HMO, or prepaid healthcare plan which my wife and I have been on for many, many years.  No plan is perfect, but I sure can't complain about the care my wife and I have received.  In fact, we're both alive and healthy today, because of the care we have gotten from Kaiser. 

When we were living in Georgia - We had Kaiser, - My mother in law also had Kaiser. She was experiencing severe bone pain throughout her back , arms and hands . They told her it was Fibramialgia (sp) or rheumatoid arthritis or some such nonsense and prescribed meds for 1 1/2 years. They would not allow her under her plan to seek a second opinion from a specialist out of pocket.

Finally she paid for it on her own,  and we found out she had bone cancer . She died a year later. 2 1/2 years after she first started complaining of these symptoms to Kaiser. And not to sound prejduce but her doctor obtained her original medical degree in India.
How she passed US boards I will never know. But I'm sure Kaiser obtained her at reduced salary costs in relation to her US peers. 

I remember I had chest pains one year and called , told them I needed to come in. They told me I had to make an appointment 2 weeks out. I told them , I was either coming in that day or going to the hospital. They told me I couldn't go to the hospital because I was within a certain mile radius of a Kaiser facility. I told them I was coming in that day or gong to the hospital and we could fight the the bill out in court. They reluctantly agreed to see me without "an appointment". Turned out I had a hairline fractured rib.

I am not a proponent of HMO'S. There whole business costing model is to minimize patient costs to point of providing less care or the absolute minimum amount of care to ensure huge profit margins to their bottom line. Non -profit my Butt. They are a Private Non-Profit that takes advantage of a non-profit status. They hide behind a loophole in our tax codes. (and yes folks there is a difference).

Here's a good link http://www.kaiserpapershawaii.org/kaiserwatch.htm

TM7 ,
While I have no doubt your statement above is true, count yourself as a fortunate under the Kaiser model. There are many many many others under this plan who were not so fortunate. Kaisers digusting track record is well known. Keep in mind it's managed care "they mange the monies" so your care can suffer"

The Gov't proposed HC bill will no doubt be similar to the Kaiser model that finally get's pushed through.

[Dixie Dude]

My company gave us a choice of BC/BS or an HMO several years ago.  Some went the route of HMO.  No one who got it liked it.  It saved them some money out of pocket, but they all came back to BC/BS.  They also gave us a choice of United Health Care, which I took for one year, and some of the doctors did not accept it, so I came back to BC/BS.  It costs a little more out of pocket, but you can see anyone who accepts it, any specialists.  This is one sticky issue with early retirement.  I could go out, but it would cost me about $600-700 a month out of pocket to keep my insurance until I am 65.  Company covers 2/3's of this now with full family coverage.  I also have 3 kids still in school, and it will cover them until they are 25 if they are full time students.