Stuck ball. Will ball puller even work??

[Bladeforger]

I have a ball stuck pretty hard in my .40 rifle.  It's a handmade smokepole, and the tang is an extension of the breech plug.

I was at the range and fired it first.  4 shots.  Then I put it away to keep it dry because it was raining like crazy.  Before I put it away, I ran a patch down the muzzle.  We shot another rifle and a .357 for a while.  The firing line is covered so rain doesn't pour down on the shooters, but the wind was blowing some (spray) and the humidity was high.

A few hours later, the rain let up enough and I still wanted to shoot the blackpowder rifle.  First shot was fine.  I didn't run a patch down the muzzle.  Also, I was using some round patches that I had used before without incident that are a tad big for .40.  I think they were made for .50.  The lube, applied to the whole patch, was bore butter.  The second ball jammed about 2/3 down the barrel and wouldn't budge.  I had been using a carbon fiber cleaning rod with a muzzle protecter and a brass jag to seat round balls.  It broke.  I pulled out the regular ramrod; however, the ball was too stuck to seat on down with just hand pressure.  I didn't want to hammer on my made-for-the-rifle ramrod.  So she went back into the rifle case. 

Since I don't own a bullet puller or a fancy co2 ball discharger, I did some reading online and came across the idea of pumping the ball out with a grease gun.  A trip to the auto parts store with the plastic cleaning tube and brass fitting for the nipple hole netted me the knowledge that the threads were 1/4-28.  This happened to be the size of the ONLY SAE grease zerks they had.  Happy day!  I trotted home and threaded a grease zerk into the hole and pumped grease.  Eventually I filled the barrel up to the lead ball and grease began to leak past the grease gun / grease zerk fitting.  No movement of the ball. 

Back to reading and thinking.  Yesterday I made a trip to the hardware store and bought a Schrader valve with 1/4 NPT fitting and a small hole down the middle for air.  I got a 1/4-28 bolt, a 1/4-28 tap, and the right size drill.  This moring, I drilled a hole down the middle of the bolt making it into a tube.  Then I cut it off.  The Schrader valve at the NPT end got drilled and tapped for the 1/4-28 bolt threads.  My handmade tube goes in and now I'm feeling really clever.  The newly made tool screws right into the nipple hole, no problem.  Bicycle pump first.  No joy.  Compressed air hose with 100 psi next.  Still no joy.  This ball is stuck.  And stuck is stuck.

I really don't want to pull out the breech plug because the guy who made / assembled the rifle did a fantastic job and is long dead.  I don't know if I'd ever get the breech plug / tang lined back up perfectly again.  Plus, it's been together a long long time. 

I found online a ball puller with a 40 caliber bushing.  I guess I ought to order the 10-32 size and get a 10-32 rod to go with it.  Will this pull the doggone ball out? 

Also, since I'm now in the market for a new range ramrod and a new cleaning rod, I'm open to recommendations. 

Finally, I'm guessing that if I had simply hammered the ball on down with 3/8 dowel rod, then the ball would have shot out fine.  Is this right??  Or does doing that create some kind of dangerous pressure condition? 

Thanks!!!

Keith

[Empty Quiver]

I used a ball puller once, seems the powder goes under the ball, oh well. Mine was in a pretty clean barrel and wasn't exactly easy to pull but did come out.

Now that you have that grease in there you are going to have to deal with a treamendous amount of suction while pulling. An idea you are free to reject; get the puller get it seated using a stout ramrod, then go to a shop with a power grease gun. While the power gun is trying start pulling. They don't throw the grease really fast so don't worry that it's slow to move once moving.

I don't figure you need to be told that the longer you wait the more corrosion you may fight. good luck

[mechanic]

You may be in deep poo poo.  That grease gun delivers far more pressure than any shop air.  You might try the CO2, (might be worth the investment).  I'm not sure how much pressure that will get you.  A grease gun can deliver well over 1000psi.  The idea about trying the grease gun and the puller is sound, and many air over hydraulic lubers can put about 1600 psi to task.  Best of luck, but you may be pulling the breech.

[flintlock]

Yep, ball pullers work fine, I've done it several times...If there is powder under the ball I squirt a bit of cleaner or rubbing alcohol down the barrel to make sure the powder can't ignite...I then screw a ball puller onto my range rod, screw into the ball and  pull her out, no problem...

I have also drilled a hole through the end of my ramrods to insert a 1/8 diameter pin to help if I have to pull a load while hunting...

I have often had buddies that wanted me to go to the range with them and show them how to load and shoot their sidehammers...The first thing I do is load a patched ball dry, hand it back to them and say, "What do you do now?"...I usually have to pull out my kit and show them how to pull the ball...

The first thing you need to do is make a good stout range rod as close to bore diameter as possible...Pin and glue both the handle and tip on both, then  get a good jag and drill and tap the center for a number 10-32 screw thread and go to a hardware store and buy a number
10-32 screw with the wood screw threads on the other end...I usually put a patch around the jag to help protect the barrel while biting into the ball...

btw...The breach on a custom flintlock isn't designed to be removed, no reason to...I've owned one since 1977 and another since 1988, I've never removed the breach on either...I wouldn't remove the vent liner either, unless I was going to replace it...

[quickdtoo]

I think I'd use a steel rod with a button jag on it to get it moving again towards the breech, then use the grease gun again. I use a 36" stainless steel range rod with a brass muzzle guard,  works great for seating, cleaning and pulling. It wouldn't hurt put some penetrant like Kroil down the bore to soak first too.

Tim

[Semisane]

I would not put my hand around a rod in the bore while pressure was being applied from the breech with a grease gun.  

With the predicament you have, I would get a drill bit that is near bore size and have it welded to the end of a three foot 1/4" steel rod.  Put some tape around the drill bit about an inch from the end to make a cushion between the bit and the barrel, and start drilling away the ball by hand.  Make a few turns of the bit, then pull it out to clean off the lead.  Then put it back in and scrape off a little more lead.  It shouldn't take too long to pick away the ball that way.

[mechanic]

Just did some checking.  A high quality grease gun, (hand operated), can deliver up to 15,000psi.  That more than the powder usually delivers!!

[Glanceblamm]

I have seen some balls that were stuck pretty tight for sure. In most cases, we could pour a little Moose milk down the bore and let it soak for 5 min or so then get it out with one guy having a two hand hold on the rifle & another guy with the same on the long range rod and this would work. Sometimes the puller threads in the ball would strip but a few hard tamps with the button jag would allow the puller to get another purchase on it. These were usually exceptions though.

In the case of a dry ball, the side hammer cap lock shooter could quickly pull the nipple then sprinkle some powder in there a few granules at a time while bumping the side of the lock with the palm (will hold 5 grains easy enough) and then shoot it out with that ball having more authority than you would think.

Everyone gets balls stuck but will learn how to avoid them depending on how the rifle is loading. If I am shooting spit patches I can get a dozen or so shots easily enough before swabing or if using Moose milk or Hoppe's #13 black powder solvent, I may get 22-23 shots. Most of the problems in my local club (now shut down) were that some of the guys would only do field cleaning between weekends. The result of this would be misfires early followed by stuck balls latter.

Another thought (or indicator) that there may be a stuck ball in your future is IMO, the outside of your barrel. If you go too long without a light coating of oil followed by buffing with a rag, you can feel quite a bit of resistance by simply running your fingers down it's lenght. I figure that the inside of the bore is going to be in the same condition when this happens as the metal simply dry's out and you may get a hard to load ball before you have even fired five shots. It doesn't take a whole lot of oil to get it slick n smooth inside & out and you will not have any misfires providing that you run a reasonable amount of dry patches through it.

[Hank08]

Get a brass rod tapped 10/32 on each end.  Put your puller on one end and a T-handle on the other, put your rifle in a vice and screw the puller into the ball and pull it out.  If your had been using a brass rod when loading you would have been able to seat the ball.  Many times at shoots I have to seat stuck balls for shooters with plastic or wood rods.  Have fun cleaning all that grease out.
H08

[Bladeforger]

First, thanks to everyone who replied!!!  I think this thread has more helpful information in one spot than I've read to date.  THANKS!!!

Get a brass rod tapped 10/32 on each end.  Put your puller on one end and a T-handle on the other, put your rifle in a vice and screw the puller into the ball and pull it out.  If your had been using a brass rod when loading you would have been able to seat the ball.  Many times at shoots I have to seat stuck balls for shooters with plastic or wood rods.  Have fun cleaning all that grease out.
H08

I think I'd use a steel rod with a button jag on it to get it moving again towards the breech, then use the grease gun again. I use a 36" stainless steel range rod with a brass muzzle guard,  works great for seating, cleaning and pulling. It wouldn't hurt put some penetrant like Kroil down the bore to soak first too.

Tim

Tim and Hank:
Good info on the range rod. 
The welding supply had brass rod in 1/4 and 3/8, so I got one of each.  I have some 1/4 steel at home.  I didn't have any center drills, so I ordered some along with the 10-32 tap (and an 8-32  tap). 

Tim, I was mucho worried about the black  powder / rust issue that I have used up liberal amounts of WD-40 and Break Free until I can get everything in the mail to fix this.  Especially since the brown got worn down to bare steel over the years--before I got the rifle.  This baby has been oiled more than it's been shot.

Hank, I ordered a T-Handle to put on one rod, also.  Thanks.

Keith

[Bladeforger]

Flintlock:

More good info in one place than most books have on getting lead balls removed.  Thanks!!  I got ball pullers ordered and NOW I know how to make a good one, too, thanks to you.  Using a jag for the bushing is a great idea.  Alcohol has just been added to my goin-to-the-range list.  Elsewhere you'll see I'm taking the great advice and putting together some range rods.

Keith

Yep, ball pullers work fine, I've done it several times...If there is powder under the ball I squirt a bit of cleaner or rubbing alcohol down the barrel to make sure the powder can't ignite...I then screw a ball puller onto my range rod, screw into the ball and  pull her out, no problem...

I have also drilled a hole through the end of my ramrods to insert a 1/8 diameter pin to help if I have to pull a load while hunting...

I have often had buddies that wanted me to go to the range with them and show them how to load and shoot their sidehammers...The first thing I do is load a patched ball dry, hand it back to them and say, "What do you do now?"...I usually have to pull out my kit and show them how to pull the ball...

The first thing you need to do is make a good stout range rod as close to bore diameter as possible...Pin and glue both the handle and tip on both, then  get a good jag and drill and tap the center for a number 10-32 screw thread and go to a hardware store and buy a number
10-32 screw with the wood screw threads on the other end...I usually put a patch around the jag to help protect the barrel while biting into the ball...

btw...The breach on a custom flintlock isn't designed to be removed, no reason to...I've owned one since 1977 and another since 1988, I've never removed the breach on either...I wouldn't remove the vent liner either, unless I was going to replace it...

[Bladeforger]

I would not put my hand around a rod in the bore while pressure was being applied from the breech with a grease gun.  

With the predicament you have, I would get a drill bit that is near bore size and have it welded to the end of a three foot 1/4" steel rod.  Put some tape around the drill bit about an inch from the end to make a cushion between the bit and the barrel, and start drilling away the ball by hand.  Make a few turns of the bit, then pull it out to clean off the lead.  Then put it back in and scrape off a little more lead.  It shouldn't take too long to pick away the ball that way.

Nahhh, I don't want my hand in front of any fast-moving object either.    Got enough scars already!

I really like the drill bit idea.  That is last resort, but it looks like a last resort that will work if everything else fails!!!  I know there  won't be any more grease guns hooked up to this rifle again.

Just did some checking.  A high quality grease gun, (hand operated), can deliver up to 15,000psi.  That more than the powder usually delivers!!

The problem  wasn't the grease gun not providing enough pressure, it was the grease squirting out around the grease gun nozzle to zerk fitup.  Maybe there's something I don't see here...

I have seen some balls that were stuck pretty tight for sure. In most cases, we could pour a little Moose milk down the bore and let it soak for 5 min or so then get it out with one guy having a two hand hold on the rifle & another guy with the same on the long range rod and this would work. Sometimes the puller threads in the ball would strip but a few hard tamps with the button jag would allow the puller to get another purchase on it. These were usually exceptions though.

I've seen moose milk get praise in several places in the last 3 days.  Before this I'd never heard of it.  Gotta check that stuff out.  And the tamps with a button jag to get another purchase on the screw is dang good information to have!

Thanks, again, to everyone for all the help!  I can't believe all the responses.  I'm grateful and appreciative.  When all the junk I ordered shows up and the rifle is cleared and cleaned, I'll let y'all know.

Keith

[jlchucker]

Too late now, but I wonder what would have been the result had you, in the beginning, taken a long steel rod a bit over ramrod-diameter and used it to drive the stuck ball down onto your powder charge?  Would the soft lead ball sized itself down to a point where you could have fired it out?  I'm not recommending this, just asking for opinions.  It seems possible that, given that your barrel is steel, and the rod you would have used being steel also, you could have created a condition much like the sizer dies used in sizing.  By the time the ball got down to the powder charge, could it have been swaged down to proper size to where shooting it out would been possible (without damaging the barrel or yourself in the process)??   I've used muzzle-loaders (the hammer variety-not inlines) since the early 1970's and have always considered myself to be a pretty careful loader. after reading this thread and all of the back-and-forth dialog that's been posted about your dilemma I for one will be even more careful about loading my rifle than I ever have been in the past.

[necchi]

Your right jlchucker, it is hind sight, but that's what I would have done. Now that's it's full of grease, I'd follow quicks advise here,,I'd still try to get that ball moving down at least some, before I'd try screwing a hole in it and pulling it, and I'd want the bore above the ball lubed also.

I think I'd use a steel rod with a button jag on it to get it moving again towards the breech, then use the grease gun again. I use a 36" stainless steel range rod with a brass muzzle guard,  works great for seating, cleaning and pulling. It wouldn't hurt put some penetrant like Kroil down the bore to soak first too.Tim

[jlchucker]

A bit off topic but relevant, given the topic of stuck rifle balls. Back when I first started with muzzle loading rifles, I got a 45 cal caplock rifle from Dixie Gun works--the vintage before they came out with the Tennessee rifle version.  This shot lubed, patched balls pretty straight, and had a 40 inch barrel.  This was just before the invention of Pyrodex, and real Black Powder was still available. I didn't have a nylon bore brush at the time, and since one of my brothers stuck a bronze brush in his Thompson Center rifle, I never used a bore brush to clean my rifle.  I'd remove the nipple, swab the barrel with moose milk (or hot soapy water) and clean patches until I thought I had a spotless barrel. After a while, patched balls started hanging up tight, about halfway down.  I was able to force the balls past this point and still shoot.  Then I broke the wooden ramrod.  I worked for a large machine tool manufacturer then--one with a huge inventory of all kinds of steel.  I called the foreman on the night shift and asked if I could get a carbon steel rod about 41 inches long.  He said "what diameter", and I had a new, break-proof ramrod--complete with a drilled and tapped end for brushes, tips, etc.  Later, after much reading, I discovered nylon bore brushes that reversed in the barrel.  The use of a bore brush cured my tight-spot problem.  I ended up trading that rifle , but learned something about barrel cleaning with a muzzle loader.  They are never really clean until you've brushed them as a part of cleaning.  I don't know what kind of crud sabots will leave in a barrel these days. 

[mechanic]

I picked up a cheap inline in a pawn shop a while back, and noticed a primer on the seat.  I showed it to the owner, and we subsequently took it outside and pulled the trigger.  You guessed it, fully loaded.  He said earlier that morning a kid had been in with his dad and had been holding that gun.   After that we checked all his muzzle loaders, and found two with a stuck ball, (or something) halfway of the barrel.  I'd say some of the old timers who used these weapons to survive would probably laugh at most of us today for our lack of knowledge.....at me at least.

[gunrac]

First, thanks to everyone who replied!!!  I think this thread has more helpful information in one spot than I've read to date.  THANKS!!!

Get a brass rod tapped 10/32 on each end.  Put your puller on one end and a T-handle on the other, put your rifle in a vice and screw the puller into the ball and pull it out.  If your had been using a brass rod when loading you would have been able to seat the ball.  Many times at shoots I have to seat stuck balls for shooters with plastic or wood rods.  Have fun cleaning all that grease out.
H08

I think I'd use a steel rod with a button jag on it to get it moving again towards the breech, then use the grease gun again. I use a 36" stainless steel range rod with a brass muzzle guard,  works great for seating, cleaning and pulling. It wouldn't hurt put some penetrant like Kroil down the bore to soak first too.

Tim

Tim and Hank:
Good info on the range rod. 
The welding supply had brass rod in 1/4 and 3/8, so I got one of each.  I have some 1/4 steel at home.  I didn't have any center drills, so I ordered some along with the 10-32 tap (and an 8-32  tap). 

Tim, I was mucho worried about the black  powder / rust issue that I have used up liberal amounts of WD-40 and Break Free until I can get everything in the mail to fix this.  Especially since the brown got worn down to bare steel over the years--before I got the rifle.  This baby has been oiled more than it's been shot.

Hank, I ordered a T-Handle to put on one rod, also.  Thanks.

Keith

A bit of hind site now. This is what I have. It has everything you would need, as far as rods go.  You can find them even cheeper on E-BAY

 http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=353223

[Tryit 1]

Bladeforger, I have had to replace many breach plugs and rethread the barrel for folks that did not remove the breach plug for long periods of time. The fouling seeps into the threads and slowly erodes the threads and begins to leak gas with every shot. I recommend that you get a small sharp chisel and on the underneath of the barrel mark the junction of the barrel and the breach plug with a straight dent from the chisel. Make the mark deep enough that it will be permanent. With a good penertrating oil soak the threads from the inside and use a good wrench to unscrew the breach plug. Clean the grease out and tap out the ball. Use a good water resistant antisieze compound (I use a lead base compound) and retighten the plug back even to the marks made with the chesil. I clean my rifles breach plug about once a year. Tryit.

[DennyRoark]

My $.02 worth...first, a regular $19.95 grease bun bypasses at ARO 1500psi, a high pressure gun at ARO 10,000psi and costs $60+.  If it were me, I'd try brazing a #8 or 10 sheetmetal screw to a piece of 3/8th's all thread ready rod, get it screwed deep into the ball and put a washer next to the muzzle and run a nut down it and try to pull it out by turning the nut in.  Like Tim said, a good soaking with Kroil first couldn't hurt and will help keep the patch and bore lubed.  IMHO only and good luck!  Let us know when/how you got it out for future reference!

Denny

[necchi]

If it were me, I'd try brazing a #8 or 10 sheetmetal screw to a piece of 3/8th's all thread ready rod, get it screwed deep into the ball and put a washer next to the muzzle and run a nut down it and try to pull it out by turning the nut in.
  Let us know when/how you got it out for future reference!
Denny

That's brilliant! A twist on that ( ) is they make a thing called a Furniture Bolt,,common thread on one side and a lag thread (wood screw) on the other,,a feller could use a long nut to attach too the all thread instead of brazing. That's a good idea to put a washer and nut on the muzzle end for the steady pressure and pull. I had to use a rig like that to pull one from an old musket one time, when we stripped a hole in the ball with a common puller..it didn't occur to me at the time to use a washer and nut too pull 

[Two Bears]

This happened to me too, I tried everything but no joy.
Then I went to work with the barrel and got a grease zerk that fit the vent liner hole and used a pnumatic grease gun to pump it out "JOY"
It worked great and the grease cleaned up with a few patches.

[DEACONLLB]

I ran into almost the same problem this weekend, picked up a super nice TC wood stock Black mountain muzzleloader at the gun show and when I went to clean it hit I hit something half way down the barrel. made me a bullet puller from one of those screw bolt combos and put it on a cleaning rod and screwed it in good and begain to pull and out comes of all things an old oily rag that someone had soaked in oil and shoved down barrel, now figure that one out. Puller worked good though.
Deaconllb

[quickdtoo]

Keith, did ya get it out yet?  We need to know!! 

Tim

[jlchucker]

Keith, did ya get it out yet?  We need to know!! 

Tim

Yeah Keith, we need to know.   And besides knowing you got it out, we need to know exactly HOW you proceeded to get it out if you did yet.

John

[Bladeforger]

No, it's not out yet.  the puller just pulled a nice hole in the ball.  Before I try the drill, I'll try a breech scraper I have.  However, before I try that I'm going to do the furniture bolt thing.  I got one at the Home Depot the other day and I got a 1/4 - 20 allthread (to match the threads of the furniture bolt).  I need something to join the two together, and in a .40 caliber barrel, that means I need some more 3/8 brass rod.  I turned the first piece into a nice range rod; therefore, I'm waiting for the welding supply to get me some more 3/8 brass rod.  So today, since I couldn't do anything else, and since work is slow, I put up a bunch of stucco lath.  The brass rod should be in tomorrow.     Hope my arms and back have recovered by then!! 

The range rod came out very nice, by the way.  It's a 3/8 brass rod with 10-32 threads in both ends.  I got a T-handle from Track of the Wolf for the "pulling" end.  I stuck the rod in an old Sherline lathe I have and scribed a groove.  Then I used a hacksaw, with the rod turning, to cut off the end.  A file (with a handle so as to not poke holes in the old hand) to face it off.  A center drill to spot the hole.  Then drill bit in the Jacobs chuck to make a hole for the tap.  The, for the tapping, I put the tap in the Jacobs chuck and used the chuck key for a hand hold.  Turned the 3-jaw chuck by hand.  Left the tailstock loose so it would slide.  Result is perfect, centered, threads. 

I'll do the same procedure to make a "nut" for the 1/4 - 20 when it arrives.  I think part of the reason the ball puller just pulled through the lead was that the screw twisted as I was pulling.  The nut on the allthread should fix that problem. 

[flintlock]

What were you using for a ball puller??? The "furniture bolt" is what I use...I just take the cleaning jag that screws into the ramrod, drill a hole dead center, tap for the furniture (I think that was 10x32)...I do the same for the cleaning jag on the end of my range rod...When I need to pull a ball, I just screw the ball puller (furniture bolt) into the jag, insert in the barrel and screw into the ball and remove...

I have had a situation where I tied a length of rope around the end of the range rod so I could tie to a stationary object and pop the ball out easier...

[Foggy]

sonds like pull the breech plug time.  just my opion

[Bladeforger]

It's out!!!!!!!!!!


The ball is conquered by a hanger bolt aka furniture bolt.  The brass piece is 3/8 rod drilled and tapped to match the 1/4 - 20 threads. 

Here are other pics:

BallPullerInMuzzle The grease glop is from when the grease oozed out from around the zerk.

I used a wooden clamp with some paper towels for padding to hold the barrel.  Yeah, the brown is in sad shape.  There's also a bit of "white" metal in places, too.  That's another project--maybe for when I pull the breech plug like Tryit suggested, a good idea for this Fall if ever I heard one.

This little guy makes the threading much easier!!  I could have brazed the furniture bolt to the rod, but all the threads I cut would have been hard without the Sherline.,.  Tomorrow, when I go to shoot it, I'll have a 1/4 brass rod with the 8-32 threads that fit some of the older attachments, and I'll have the 3/8 rod (also brass) with the concave jag in 10-32 threads.  I moved the t handle to the 1/4 rod and put the round wooden handle on the 3/8 rod.  I like the concave jag for running a patch down the bore!  I'd been poking down a patch and then fishing it out with the worm.  I've become a jag fan for sure.

Ball on puller with patch removed. Here's the ball with the patch removed.  That was one nasty patch--and it ain't from the grease.  I've learned my lesson about wiping the bore more frequently. 

Thanks, again, to everyone who helped!!!  I really appreciate it.  I may go ahead and make up one of those drill bits for future reference--it'd come in handy for other projects, too, I'm sure.

Keith

[necchi]

"YEA" This was a community effort!! HAZZHA! HAZZHA! HAZZHA!!

Gosh, I truley hope your bore is OK,,thank you for sharing your story here,,thank you for taking ALL of the ideas to heart, too find a solution,,and lastly thank you for sharing the results .

p.s. i'm a swabber,,spit patch after EVERY shot,,

[quickdtoo]

Hurray!!