Not a truck or SUV....but I bought a older Camaro to fix up!

[NYH1]

I bought a '78 Camaro to fix up. It needs work but it's solid where it matters most...front and rear sub frames, quarters, doors, floors and trunk floor ect.

It has a 350 4 bbl., TH350 auto trans, 8.5" read end. I have no idea what gears are in it now. I'm going to go with 3.42's though. It's going to be a daily driver.

I'm going to rebuild the engine over the winter.   I was going to build a 383 stroker out of it. Now I'm leaning towards just rebuilding the 350. There are a few reasons for this...money being the biggest factor, plus as mentioned, I'm building more of a driver then anything else.

Obviously I have to pull the engine (which actually runs pretty good), tear it down, take it to be checked. I'm going to have the cylinders bored and torque plate honed, the mains align honed and the decks trued up. I'll have the complete rotating assembly balanced.

I'm looking at a rebuild kit from Summit ($440). It comes with forged pistons (pressed pins), moly rings, bearings, gaskets, HV oil pump. Pretty much everything to assemble the engine. Scat cast crank ($190) and 4340 "I" beam rods ($212). I might as well buy these, by the time I have mine turned/resized, buy new rod bolts and have them put in I'll have just about the same money into my old parts.

World Products S/R Torquer heads, 2.02"/1.60" valves, 67cc chambers which will give me right around 9.4:1 compression.

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic flat tappet CSXE268H-10 cam. 224/230 dur @.050", 268/280 adver. .477"/.480" valve lift with a 110° lobe sep ang. 1600-5800 RPM range.

Edelbrock Performer RPM intake. Holley 650 vacuum secondary carb.

I just put Hedman 1 5/8" full length headers and Flowmaster 2 1/2" full length exhaust system on it.

I'm going to use a TH350 with about a 2000 RPM stall converter. I'm going to use 3.42 gears. The car has 14 inch tires and wheel on it right now. I think I'm going to use them. I'll probably go with a 235/60-14 or 245/60-14 tire.

I'd like to get 325 to 350 horsepower with good street torque out of it.

[R.W.Dale]

you plan on building a 78 camaro for a DD

Man are you setting yourself up for hardship and disappointment especially given your slick Dodge, Just how long has it been since you drove such a car on a daily basis?

I did DD the exact same car 10yrs ago and I still remember enough of the experience to DESPISE camaros in all forms to this very day even with a 700r4 OD trans I added to mine. I mean don't get me wrong it sounds like you have the makings of a cool weekend toy. But trust me once the first tiny bit of novelty wears off from driving such a car it's interior will be the last place you'll want to be on your commute

[mirage1988]

I'm going to rebuild the engine over the winter.   I was going to build a 383 stroker out of it. Now I'm leaning towards just rebuilding the 350. There are a few reasons for this...money being the biggest factor, plus as mentioned, I'm building more of a driver then anything else.



I'm looking at a rebuild kit from Summit ($440). It comes with forged pistons (pressed pins), moly rings, bearings, gaskets, HV oil pump. Pretty much everything to assemble the engine. Scat cast crank ($190) and 4340 "I" beam rods ($212).

Does it burn oil, or why the rebuild? If it does burn oil, do a compression check, then do a wet compression check. Unless you have more than a 10% difference, the reason it uses oil is in the heads. You can save a ton of money by just doing the top end and a cam change.

If you want to build the 383 stroker, it really isn't any more expensive than a straight rebuild since you mentioned buying a new crank and rods anyway, the only other parts you would need are the harmonic balancer and flywheel from the 400. You might have to do a little grinding on the block for rod bolt clearance, nothing major though.

I built a stroker about 10 years ago for a blazer (mud truck) it was a very strong motor, I wish I still had it.

[NYH1]

krochus, I say daily driver because it's going to be mild enough to drive everyday.   That doesn't mean I'm going to drive it everday, just mean it'll be mild enough to if I want to.   Another reason I bought it was to keep miles off my truck, so I am going to drive it.   I'll probably never buy a new truck again.   My trucks awesome, I'll keep it as long as I can.   The more I drive the Camaro, the longer the truck will last. 

[NYH1]

mirage1988, I want to start with a fresh engine.   Then I'm going to have the transmission rebuilt.   After that I'll have the rear end set up with a limited slip/posi carrier and 3.42 gears.   Then I'll move on to the body and interior.   Just keep plugging away.   

[Lloyd Smale]

ive built a few 350s in the past and heres my take on it. First if it runs good and doesnt use excessive oil id put my money for now into a manifold car and a set of headers and run it. If it needed rebuilding id think about just buying a goodwrench short block and a set of good aluminum heads. You can get a 4 bolt main shortblock for little more then the cost of rebuilding and they come with a warantee. That way everything is new. Twice now ive started rebuilds and found serious problems. Once the block was shot and the other time i found that the block had allready been bored and couldnt go any farther. Get a new gm shortblock and youve got new pistons, block , rods, and cam and a warantee.

[NYH1]

I'm definitely going to have the machine work done and then rebuild the engine myself (or ourselves).   For no other reason then I (we) really enjoy doing it.   I (we) love putting engines together.   My father and I have done a few small blocks in the past.   This time it'll be my father, my 7 year old son and I!     

GM Performance Parts does a great job with their short blocks and even complete engines.   Just not the way I want to go.   

[30-30man]

Some advice on the the rebuild and you can take it for what it's worth.  The farther you get away from stock, the more unreliable it will be, and the more you take away from the value of the car.  I've seen too many souped up vehicles with mountains of problems from fancy ignition systems, carb settings, etc.  If you keep it plain and simple, the car will be something you can depend on, probably get better mileage, and will be worth more than any souped up hatchet job.

[torpedoman]

knock that stall speed down to 1200 and you will get better preformance and a lot better gas mileage.  I can't recall were i had the one for my firebird done but it had a 900 stall and turned in 20mpg with a 400 engine.

[mrbigtexan]

you should check out northern auto parts for your rebuild kit. i have bought from them twice and have never been disappointed. you can get quality parts there alot cheaper than summit. i will use only fel-pro gaskets myself, and i would strongly recommend using a standard oil pump. i have tried hp-hv and lp-hv and cannot get them to stop leaking around the rear main seal. also i recommend staying away from moly rings, they are too hard and will wear out your cylinders too quick. they were designed for circle track where they will be taken apart after every race.

[NYH1]

Some advice on the the rebuild and you can take it for what it's worth.  The farther you get away from stock, the more unreliable it will be, and the more you take away from the value of the car.  I've seen too many souped up vehicles with mountains of problems from fancy ignition systems, carb settings, etc.  If you keep it plain and simple, the car will be something you can depend on, probably get better mileage, and will be worth more than any souped up hatchet job.

I agree.   The engine is going to be basically a stock rebuild with forged pistons instead of cast, 4340 steel rods instead of the stock rods, the crank is a new replacement crank.   All good parts for a stock/mild performance rebuild.   The cam is going to be bigger then stock, but it's still not that big.   The World Product's S/R Torquer cylinder heads that I'm going to use are Stock Replacement heads.   They flow a little better then the factory heads.   They're supposed to be good heads for the money.   I want to make 325 to 350 horsepower with this engine.  

As far as fuel mileage go's, if my Camaro is anywhere even close to my 2007 Hemi Ram 1500 Quad Cab, 4x4, 3.92 gears (10.5 mpg city/18 mpg highway), I'll be happy.            
 

[mrbigtexan]

also, after rereading you first topic, that cam you have picked out will be too big for any real world everyday driving torque.

[NYH1]

knock that stall speed down to 1200 and you will get better preformance and a lot better gas mileage.  I can't recall were i had the one for my firebird done but it had a 900 stall and turned in 20mpg with a 400 engine.

I can understand that by going to a 900 rpm stall converter the mpg went up.   What I can't understand is how I'd get better performance by going with a 1200 rpm stall converter?   The operating range for the cam I'm going to use is 1600 to 5800 rpm's.   How will I gain performance by going with a converter the stalls 400 rpm's below my operating range?

[NYH1]

you should check out northern auto parts for your rebuild kit. i have bought from them twice and have never been disappointed. you can get quality parts there alot cheaper than summit. i will use only fel-pro gaskets myself, and i would strongly recommend using a standard oil pump. i have tried hp-hv and lp-hv and cannot get them to stop leaking around the rear main seal. also i recommend staying away from moly rings, they are too hard and will wear out your cylinders too quick. they were designed for circle track where they will be taken apart after every race.

I've only used one high volume oil pump.   I used it with a 7 qt. Moroso pan.   I didn't have any problems with oil leaks.   I've been told by quite a few guys not to use high pressure oil pumps though.

also, after rereading you first topic, that cam you have picked out will be too big for any real world everyday driving torque.

That's the cam that two different Comp Cams tech advisers told me to use.   I was thinking the next size down would work better, grind #12-238-2, 218/224 dur. @ .050, 262/270 adv. dur. .462/.469 valve lift 110 LSA.   They said that as long as I "did" use a 2000 rpm stall converter with the first cam picked, it will work fine.   If I wasn't going to run a stall converter, use the smaller cam I listed.   

I'm not afraid to run a stall converter.    A 2000 rpm stall converter is small.   The last '78 Camaro I had, had a 406 solid cam, I ran a 3800 rpm stall on the street with that car.   Drove it a lot actually.   Now I'll be the first one to say that I don't want a car like again.   But I do want this Camaro to have good power and still be very street able.                 

[Bigeasy]

The stock 350 in a 78 is about 165-170hp.  The mid to late 70's were terrible for performance, mostly the cam and heads.  Its not hard to put a package together that will hit the 325 - 350 hp mark and be reliable, with good low end and gas milage.  Key is use matched parts - a torque cam, dual plane manifold, 600 - 650cfm 4 bl carb, headers with a cross over pipe, and an elec. ignition.  Aluminum heads will allow the engine to run cooler, and allow a little more ignition advance / compression, if desired.  The higher the stall on a torque converter (closer to the peak torque curve of the engine), the faster the launch down the road, at the expense of gas miliage, and increased heat.  To early a lock up, and you bog the motor down off the line.  1800 - 2000 is a good comprimise.  Look at a performance shift kit for the auto tranny, less slipage beyween shifts means less heat, better mpg, quicker times under acceleration.  No reason a car like this cant be a good daily driver.  Back in the mid 80's, I took a 1975 Vette, replaced the motor with a 375 horse 327 and a Fairbanks racing turbo 400 tranny.  Used it as a daily driver for years.  People thought it was a smogged out stock Vette, until I nailed it...  My only mistake with that motor was a solid cam that was a little to lumpy.  Would have gotten better low end, and milage with a mild hydrolic cam.

Larry

[NYH1]

Bigeasy, My car came with a 305.   Someone put the 350 in it.   The block is casting number 3970010 which is either a large journal 1968 327, 2 bolt main block, passenger car engine or a 1969 to 1979 350, 2 or 4 bolt main block, passenger car, truck or vette, 185 to 370 HP.   I know it's not the mighty little LT1.   Other then that I don't know much about it.   I haven't pulled a valve cover yet so I don't know the head casting numbers.   I highly doubt it's a 327, if it is it's a large journal which means I can use it as a 350.   The only thing different is the stroke (3.25" to 3.48"), same block.

I'm going to stay with cast iron heads mainly because of cost.   The World Products S/R Torquer heads fit into my price range.   And from talking to different manufactures about their parts, they all seem to think the S/R Torquer heads will work really well with the rest of the components I'm going to use.   

The Edelbrock Performer RPM intake has a power range of 1500 to 6500 RPM's.   Edelbrock recommends the RPM intake for engines with cams with more then 214 dur. @.050".   My cam is 224/230 dur @.050" 1600 to 5800 RPM range.   

I called Comp Cams back again today.   They recommended the same cam as they did the other two times I talked to them.   

I have 1 5/8" full length headers, a Flowmaster dual exhaust system with an equalizer tube between the two sides.   The transmission is a TH350.   I'm going to have it rebuilt.   I don't know much about tranny's.   Same with the rear end.   There is are two guys locally that are really good setting up rear ends.               

[NYH1]

Thanks to everyone for replying! 

[30-30man]

  I have a stock 1964 Impala two door hardtop that was my fathers.  He bought it new from a local dealer.  I have the first license plate that came on the car.  It runs good put is limited in the gas mileage department witht the 2 speed Powerglide.  I've always wanted to do a mild rebuild on the old 327.  It was suspoe to have 250 hp at the time with the small 4bl rochester, but I seriously doubt it.  It's bone stock at the moment.  I don't drive it much because the hommies and the gansters want leave me alone when I take it around town. It also has no power brakes, steering, or A/C.....I have been spoiled by these modern things.

[Lloyd Smale]

big easy gave the right answer about torque converters. Idealy you want your motor to spin up a bit to get it in its hp and torque curve faster. You may gain a bit of milage with a tighter convertor but it will be at the expense of performance and your building a camero not a yugo. Like big easy said a 1800-2000 rpm stall convertor is about ideal for a mildly built motor. Best bet is to contact the company making your cam and ask them what theyd recomend. One bit of advice though. The torque converter is the last place you want to skrimp. Get a good one. They will give you about the best performance bang for the buck of anything you can do to a perfomance car with a auto trany. I have bought a few vigalante converters in the past and there quality is top shelf. The vanes are all welded and there not tweaked stock coverters like alot of the aftermarket ones are. If gas milage is a consern id look for a overdrive tranny and keep the convertor a tad on the loose side. Ive ran convertors up to 2800 rpm stall without heat problems using just a tranny cooler. The two biggest seat of the pants increases in perfomance your going to see are your cam and your converter so chose wizely. With the cam and manifold you chose running a tight convertor is going to make it fall flat on its face. Also make sure the machine shop you use for your block uses a torque plate to bore and hone your motor. Your combo should net you about 325. Those w/p heads are good stuff. Only disadvantage to iron is they tend to detonate faster then aluminum so you will probably have to run premium and may have to take a little timing out of the curve. You should be able to run 9 to 1 on premeium pump gas with them and could probably get away with 10.5 to 1 with aluminum heads and that would probably net you another 25 hp. the forged pistons will work great for you. they may cause you to use a bit of oil as the have to heat up a bit to seal but it will give you the option of going to a higher hp level in the future and will also give you the option of running up to a 200hp nitrous setup safely if you set it up properly.

[NYH1]

  I have a stock 1964 Impala two door hardtop that was my fathers.  He bought it new from a local dealer.  I have the first license plate that came on the car.  It runs good put is limited in the gas mileage department witht the 2 speed Powerglide.  I've always wanted to do a mild rebuild on the old 327.  It was suspoe to have 250 hp at the time with the small 4bl rochester, but I seriously doubt it.  It's bone stock at the moment.  I don't drive it much because the hommies and the gansters want leave me alone when I take it around town. It also has no power brakes, steering, or A/C.....I have been spoiled by these modern things.

I don't have "hommies and the gansters" to worry about.   They stay on their own side of town...which I AVOID!   The Glock's help with this....yeah right, they have automatic weapons who am I kidding lol.   

If you want to rebuild/restore that car do it.   That sounds like a nice car to start with! 

[NYH1]

Lloyd Smale, like my original post says,

Obviously I have to pull the engine (which actually runs pretty good), tear it down, take it to be checked. I'm going to have the cylinders bored and torque plate honed, the mains align honed and the decks trued up. I'll have the complete rotating assembly balanced.

   
The machinist/engine builder that's going to all my machine work and maybe set up my heads does really good work.   He torque plate hones everything now.   The cam manufactures that I've talked to all recommend a 2000 stall converter with the size cam I'm going to run.   

As far as fuel mileage go's, if my Camaro is anywhere even close to my 2007 Hemi Ram 1500 Quad Cab, 4x4, 3.92 gears (10.5 mpg city/18 mpg highway), I'll be happy.

I have a few more things to to reply to but I have to go to work now.   Maybe I'll get a chance to reply at work.   If not I'll do it after work.   Thanks!

[30-30man]

It just seems like every gas station I pull up to is crowded by the types that can't seem to keep their pants up. My old 64 use to be just another car, now all the boys in the hood want one.  I get asked all the time when somebody sees it, "That thing got hydros...Why don't you put some 22s on it."  They don't understand fender skirts and my vintage hubcaps on 14" rims.  I like sleeper cars with big motors.  They look stock, but will run like a bat out of H@#$.  I'm not into fancy valve covers and all that chrome crap.  I would like my 327 to look and sound stock but run one day.  Anyways good luck with your project.

[Lloyd Smale]

if you ever put 22s on a classic like your 64 i promise i will hunt you down

[NYH1]

if you ever put 22s on a classic like your 64 i promise i will hunt you down

Yeah...what he said!

[NYH1]

Lloyd Smale, I ran 9.8:1 compression in a SB 406 with iron heads (Dart Sportsman II) on 93 octane.   I ran 36°-38° total advance and it worked good.   I didn't get any detonation.   I ran a 4 core radiator with a good water pump and keep it pretty cool.   I think I'll be ok with 9.4:1 compression with 92 or 93 octane.

I'd like to have the option of being able to run a 100-150 HP nitrous kit in the future.   I'd do a dedicated fuel system if I did.   I'd run an electric fuel pump (Holley blue pump or something similar) with it's own fuel line, a regulator with a return fuel line.   If I do use nitrous, I'd probably have to take more timing out of it then most would because of the compression.   Or I'd mix Cam2 with 93 octane 50/50 to raise the octane level.   Both are Sunco fuels.           

[NYH1]

Again, I really appreciate all the replies....keep them coming! 

[Lloyd Smale]

you are absolutely correct. You CAN get away with pump gas and iron heads up to about 10 to one if you keep your engine cool and dont put to much timing in it but the only thing is is that when you take out timing your taking out hp. The nitrous should be no problem on your motor if your using forged or hyperutetic pistons. Its also not a bad idea to add just a smidge more ring gap if you know your going to use nitrous. At those levels you shouldnt need a dedicated fuel system, but id get a timing controler, a window switch a low fuel pressure shut off and only use a wet system. take a couple degrees of timing out if your running 100-150 and make sure your premium gas is good gas and 93 octane. not the 91 octane some stations call premium. Another thing to consider is running an ethonal blend. It wont do much for fuel economy but the alcohol in it acts just like octane and will give you about the eqivelent of 95 octane fuel. you may find thought that you have to jet for it as it tends to run a little leaner. But then if your into to it as much as it looks your going to be jeting for fa mixture anyway. A wide knock sensor and guage is a good idea if your running nitrous too. Something else to think about is if you do plan on using nitrous for sure if you step up to forged pistons and go with one of the newer cams designed for nitrous motors you will have the option of easily stepping up to a 250 hp setup in the future.

Lloyd Smale, I ran 9.8:1 compression in a SB 406 with iron heads (Dart Sportsman II) on 93 octane.   I ran 36°-38° total advance and it worked good.   I didn't get any detonation.   I ran a 4 core radiator with a good water pump and keep it pretty cool.   I think I'll be ok with 9.4:1 compression with 92 or 93 octane.

I'd like to have the option of being able to run a 100-150 HP nitrous kit in the future.   I'd do a dedicated fuel system if I did.   I'd run an electric fuel pump (Holley blue pump or something similar) with it's own fuel line, a regulator with a return fuel line.   If I do use nitrous, I'd probably have to take more timing out of it then most would because of the compression.   Or I'd mix Cam2 with 93 octane 50/50 to raise the octane level.   Both are Sunco fuels.           

[NYH1]

Lloyd Smale, I use Sunco fuel in pretty much everything we have, both cars, the truck, the ATV's, lawn mower, chain saws (93 octane in the saws).   It has 10% ethonal in it.   They sell 87, 89, 91 and 93 octane.

I'd never use more then 150 HP nitrous, if I use it at all.   

[Lloyd Smale]

little hint about your chain saw. I used to use premium in all my 2 stroke motors. Mostly because alot of them had the compression bumped up. When i quit playing with modifying motors (got to old) i still used it for years figureing it was better for the motor. I found out some things. First octane in fuel is an ignition retartand. It slows the igition of fuel so that a motor doesnt detonate (preigniton not blowing up) What it does to a motor that has a compression level low enough that it isnt needed is makes them hard to start, causes plug fouling and carbon build up. You obviously live in an area that uses oxegenated fuel (ethonol added) that alone gives you a good safety factor for detonation and you are going to be much better off running regular in your saw then premium. Where it really showed for me was snowmobiles. Using regular my machines started much better especially when it got real cold. If it can be ran safely a lower octain fuel will allways produce more energy then a higher octain fuel.

[gp911]

Like Lloyd said, don't skimp on the converter. For B & M go Holeshot, not Torkmaster, for example. Tweaked stock converters will give you 2000rpm stall for a little while... Then they take a crap. Up to the 150 shot I'd say just go for a premium converter like a Holeshot 2000 or TCI Breakaway, although the TCI will be closer to 2400 stall. Overall I like your choices, and remember you have plenty of options for adjustment on that Holley if it is too rich, has a stumble, etc. 3.42 is a nice ratio, low enough to pull hard, tall enough to do some freeway. The cam is a little stout, but you could get away with it I suspect. No bigger though, you're starting to sacrifice bottom-end at this point.

Sounds like a good build so far, you have a good handle on the situation.

gp