Author Topic: Not a truck or SUV....but I bought a older Camaro to fix up! (Read 4999 times)

gp911 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 15, 2009, 05:16:43 PM »

Doh! Almost forgot. Check hood clearance for the intake/carb/air cleaner combo. Also check that the carb linkage clears the intake. Seen too many "oops I bolted it on!" moments...

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #31 on:** August 15, 2009, 11:45:45 PM »

the convertor like your cam, mainfold, carb ect has to be a ballancing act. To much cam with a tight convertor and you wont be able to idle properly and you wont flash up to the rpm range that your manifold and cam are designed to make the most power at. Gearing is another variable. Hotter cams make there power at higher rpms and if you go with a set of gears that is to high (low numbers) you will have to fight more to keep it in the proper rpm range. 342s are a great set of gears for a turbo car or a big block that makes alot of torque at low rpm but for a small block that makes a bunch of hp and realively less torque a steeper set of gears will serve you better. I doubt if id consider a set of gears milder then 373s for a small block unless it was a stroker motor with a cam and manifold chosen for low rpm power. Now to me an ideal set up with a small block would be 410s with an overdrive automatic. That way you have the best of all worlds. Another idea to throw around for a street car is a tuned port injection setup. There are tons of old vettes and irocs and firebirds in the dump with tuned port systems on them. They make good power and still retain a good amount of low end torque. they are much more effecient then any carburated set up are relitievely cheap if you shop around and there are companys that sell complete wiring harnesses to swap them into your older car. Add the od tranny thats in the car and youd be all set. With a little tweaking they easily will make 300 hp with a mild 350 and are capable of easily making 400 hp and will still get 20mpg doing it. A 400 hp tuned port motor with a od tranny and a good convertor and a set of 373s will easily get you into the 12s and add a 100 hp nitrous system and your talking low 12s to high 11s. and that is about all the power a guy can really make use of in a street car. Added benifit is there much easier to tune then a carb motor, get much better gas milage, there smoother running and because your fuel air mixture is controled much better they tend to keep contaminants out of your oil and because of that your motor will last longer. To me its about the best bang for the buck in a street car build. Plus they have an added benifit of the cool factor when you open your hood at a show. Ive used and tuned holleys for 35 years and my best advice to you is if you are stuck on a carburated motor you forget the holley and go to a eldebrock carb or even a stock chev quadrajet. They do a much better job of metering fuel. Remeber one thing if you ignore everything else ive said. Dont mix and match parts. Talk to a company that sells everything like eldebrock and get a manifold and cam that are made to work together. Talk to them about what you want out of your car as to hp and drivability and let them know things like whether you plan on adding nitrous in the future and ask them there opinion on convertors and gears. Also dont skrimp on your bottom end parts. A good 4 bolt main block is where you want to start. Buy good quality bearings. change your cam bearings at the same time. Reconditioned stock rods are fine for a 300 hp motor but if your going higher a good set of forged rods are the way to go and if you plan on nitrous dont use the stock pistons instead buck up for a set of forged ones. I know all of this advise costs money but so does lunching a motor. Buy once and buy right is the cheapest way in the long run even if it takes you an extra year to come up with the money to do it.

NYH1 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:03:34 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on August 13, 2009, 01:45:11 AM

little hint about your chain saw. I used to use premium in all my 2 stroke motors. Mostly because alot of them had the compression bumped up. When i quit playing with modifying motors (got to old) i still used it for years figureing it was better for the motor. I found out some things. First octane in fuel is an ignition retartand. It slows the igition of fuel so that a motor doesnt detonate (preigniton not blowing up) What it does to a motor that has a compression level low enough that it isnt needed is makes them hard to start, causes plug fouling and carbon build up. You obviously live in an area that uses oxegenated fuel (ethonol added) that alone gives you a good safety factor for detonation and you are going to be much better off running regular in your saw then premium. Where it really showed for me was snowmobiles. Using regular my machines started much better especially when it got real cold. If it can be ran safely a lower octain fuel will allways produce more energy then a higher octain fuel.

Interesting info Lloyd. I starting running 93 octane in the saws because the guys over at ArboristSite.com recommended I run it. They said to run the highest octane fuel I could find because of detination. I run a Husky 346 (new edition) and a 365, as well as a little Stihl 021. All three are stock and are going to stay that way.

NYH1 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:27:11 AM »

Quote from: gp911 on August 15, 2009, 05:09:38 PM

Like Lloyd said, don't skimp on the converter. For B & M go Holeshot, not Torkmaster, for example. Tweaked stock converters will give you 2000rpm stall for a little while... Then they take a crap. Up to the 150 shot I'd say just go for a premium converter like a Holeshot 2000 or TCI Breakaway, although the TCI will be closer to 2400 stall. Overall I like your choices, and remember you have plenty of options for adjustment on that Holley if it is too rich, has a stumble, etc. 3.42 is a nice ratio, low enough to pull hard, tall enough to do some freeway. The cam is a little stout, but you could get away with it I suspect. No bigger though, you're starting to sacrifice bottom-end at this point.

Sounds like a good build so far, you have a good handle on the situation.

gp

gp911, honestly, I'm thinking about going on step lower with the cam. The more I drive the car the way it is (stock), the more I REALLY enjoy it. Comp Cams next smaller Xtreme Energy cam is 218/224 dur. @.050", 262/270 adver., .462"/.469" valve lift, 110° LSA, 1300 to 5600 RPM range. I might not even need a stall converter at all with this cam. I'm going to diver this car A LOT so drivability is important.

This cam should work very well with the rest of my set up. Edelbrock recommends their RPM intake be used with any cam with more then 212 dur. @ .050".

I'll call Comp Cams tomorrow and see what they say. They recommended the larger cam because I was going to use a 2000 stall converter. I'm willing to give up some performance to gain a little drivability.

NYH1 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:36:58 AM »

Lloyd, I don't know if my block has 2 or 4 bolt mains. It doesn't matter to me. I've used 2 bolt main blocks before that made a lot more power and turned higher RPM's then my current engine will ever see with no trouble at all.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to use an Edelbrock Thunder AVS series 650 carburetor. Mainly because Holley's customer service SUCKS and when you finally do get them on the phone they're rude as h*ll. I'll post my issue with then in a new thread. I'll never buy another Holley product ever again....ever!

gp911 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 29, 2009, 04:39:33 PM »

I know it's a little late now, being 2 weeks after the fact, but if your gut says less cam, GO FOR IT.

gp911

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #36 on:** August 30, 2009, 12:38:45 AM »

the only way your chain saw is going to see detonation is if your running the carb way to lean. they are designed to run there best on regular. Look at your owners manual and id guess that thats what they recomend. your saw will start better run better and foul less sparkplugs running regular.

Quote from: New York Hunter on August 16, 2009, 07:03:34 AM

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on August 13, 2009, 01:45:11 AM
little hint about your chain saw. I used to use premium in all my 2 stroke motors. Mostly because alot of them had the compression bumped up. When i quit playing with modifying motors (got to old) i still used it for years figureing it was better for the motor. I found out some things. First octane in fuel is an ignition retartand. It slows the igition of fuel so that a motor doesnt detonate (preigniton not blowing up) What it does to a motor that has a compression level low enough that it isnt needed is makes them hard to start, causes plug fouling and carbon build up. You obviously live in an area that uses oxegenated fuel (ethonol added) that alone gives you a good safety factor for detonation and you are going to be much better off running regular in your saw then premium. Where it really showed for me was snowmobiles. Using regular my machines started much better especially when it got real cold. If it can be ran safely a lower octain fuel will allways produce more energy then a higher octain fuel.
Interesting info Lloyd. I starting running 93 octane in the saws because the guys over at ArboristSite.com recommended I run it. They said to run the highest octane fuel I could find because of detination. I run a Husky 346 (new edition) and a 365, as well as a little Stihl 021. All three are stock and are going to stay that way.

NYH1 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 30, 2009, 07:49:24 AM »

Quote from: gp911 on August 29, 2009, 04:39:33 PM

I know it's a little late now, being 2 weeks after the fact, but if your gut says less cam, GO FOR IT.

gp911

Nope not to late. I haven't bought any parts yet. My gut is telling me less cam and more cubic inch. Especially when I look at rotating assemblies. There really isn't much of a price difference between a 350 and a 383 at all. The 383 and a little smaller cam would let me get away without using a stall converter or wanting one.

Honestly, the more I drive the car, the more my desire for performance decreases and my desire for drivability increases.

NYH1 · « **Reply #38 on:** August 30, 2009, 07:53:00 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on August 30, 2009, 12:38:45 AM

the only way your chain saw is going to see detonation is if your running the carb way to lean. they are designed to run there best on regular. Look at your owners manual and id guess that thats what they recomend. your saw will start better run better and foul less sparkplugs running regular.

Like I said, that was recommended by me by the guys over at ArboristSite.com. My saws and trimmer run great on the Sunoco 93 octane fuel. They all start fine and plug fouling hasn't been an issue.

shvlhead.45 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 30, 2009, 04:10:39 PM »

New York Hunter,

Being an old Chevy guy, I like the build you are getting ready to do. One thing that I suggest you take a look at before buying the the SR Torker heads is take a look at the GM cast iron Vortec heads used on the '96-'99 Chevy/GM trucks. I think that you will find that they make more torque for about the same or less money and will work with either cam you are looking at using. Oh, the Vortec heads are what GM uses on it's HT383 crate motor and they use the aluminum fast burn version on the ZZ383.

One alibi, they do require a special intake but it is available thru GM performance parts, Edelbrock, and Holley thru any of the places like Jegs and Summit....

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #40 on:** August 31, 2009, 12:42:58 AM »

thats very good advice. the votec heads have great flow characteristics. Alot more technology went into there production then a typical aftermarket head. they are a great head at making power, especially torque and the added benifit is you will end up getting better fuel economy. Same goes with your 383 idea. The 383 is a great set up especially when it comes to a bit heavier vehicle. they put out great torque numbers. Only downfall to them is the added cost of not being able to reuse your pistons rods and crank.

NYH1 · « **Reply #41 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:52:10 AM »

I thought about going with the factory L31 (906) Vortec heads. The only problem is they can only take .450" valve lift. I figured the S/R Torquers flow pretty much the same and will be a cheaper and easier to set up.

Another head I'm looking at (especially if I go 383) is the GM Performance Parts "Small Port Bow Tie Vortec" head. They have larger 185cc intake runners, 2.00"/1.55" valves. The can go up to .530" lift without machining. They're supposed to flow better then other 180/190cc heads, plus they flow good at lower lifts too. They're supposed to make really good low and mid range power, not just top end power. They're about the max I can spend on bare heads. I'll have to use a Vortec style intake. I haven't bought an intake yet so it's no big deal.

Another thing I'm thinking about doing is going with hypereutetic pistons instead of forged. I'm only going to turn this engine to 5800 RPM's or so. I don't plan on running nitrous. Forged would give me the option down the road if I ever wanted to, but more then likely I wouldn't have used it anyway's.

Also, I'm looking at finished blocks. For what it'll cost me to have it machined locally, I can buy a finished block. There are a ton of them out there. I'm trying to find a reputable place so I don't get bonded. GM makes new 4 bolt blocks, both 1 and 2 piece rear mains. They're the same blocks they use with there small block crate engines. Summit has a remanufactured 96 to 00 .030" over 1 piece 383 block. It's been clearanced for the larger stroke crank. I'm really thinking about buying it. Summit has always been very good to me.

I'd like to buy all my parts finished, check the clearances and assemble them. I can get a balanced or unbalanced rotating assembly. Either way, getting it balanced is easy.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #42 on:** September 01, 2009, 02:04:42 AM »

with the level of motor your building valve lift shouldnt be a consern. the cams in that range dont have a ton of lift. Hypereutetic pistons may definately be the way to go for you. theres alot less expansion and contractions and what that does is allow for tighter tolarances and it will make your motor use less oil and last longer. I once did a buick grand national motor for a buddy. Like you he wasnt goiing to radical. No boost levels over 22 lbs and no nitrous. Some so called experts told me not to do it, to use only forged pistons. That motor is still running strong after 60000 miles and still doesnt use a drop of oil. I wouldnt hesitate to use them on any build under 500 hp that didnt involve nitrous or a blower or a compression ratio high enough were you might get questionable gas once in a while. If you avoid severe detonation they will hold up just fine. Again the vortec heads help this in a way too. they are a much more advanced design then the sr heads (which are good old school heads themselves) they allow a bit more compression without detonation. thats why the new chevs can run compression rations like 10to1 with iron heads and regular gas. The block deal i agree totally with you. With the prices that a guy can buy a brand new block its kind of silly to punch out an old one and do all the machine work. A new one allows you the option of down the road having enough block left for a second rebuild if its nessisary.

NYH1 · « **Reply #43 on:** September 04, 2009, 08:18:20 AM »

I've been looking at the Vortec heads. I can get a assembled set of Vortec heads from Summit for a little more then the price of bare S/R Torquer heads. When I run them on my Comp Cams engine dyno, they make pretty much the same power. They have smaller valves 1.94/1.50 compared to the S/R Torquers 2.02/1.60. The flow numbers are just about the same though.

I think the Vortec heads might be the way to go, especially if I do go 350 instead of 383.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #44 on:** September 05, 2009, 01:31:09 AM »

have you looked at eldobrock or twisted flow aluminum heads. I dont know how much more scratch theyd cost but they have the added beniflts of less weight and alow you to run 10 to 1 pistons on pump gas. Maybe the money youd save by going with the 350 instead of the stroker would offset the cost. You could reuse your crank and rods and maybe your pistons. Ive never ran them but a buddy has a 350 with a complete package. carb intake cam and heads that eldobrock put together for him and his car will really run. Nice thing is that the whole package is made to work together instead of mismatch parts.

NYH1 · « **Reply #45 on:** September 07, 2009, 11:28:43 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on September 05, 2009, 01:31:09 AM

have you looked at eldobrock or twisted flow aluminum heads.

Yes I have, they're WAY out of my price range.

I've been reading quite a few good things about the Vortec heads. Even 350's with Vortec heads seem to make really good horsepower and torque, even when using smaller cams and regular Performer type intakes.

GM Performance Parts uses Vortec heads with 1.94"/1.50" valves on their 350 H.O. It makes 330 HP @5,000 RPM's and 380 FT. LBS. of torque @3,800 RPM's. The cams pretty small too, 212/222 dur. @.050", .435"/.460" valve lift. It also only has 9.00:1 compression. I'm thinking about building pretty much the same engine lol. I think I'd use a little larger Comp Cams cam though, their Xtreme Energy cam, 218/224 dur. @.050", 262/270 adver., .462"/.469" valve lift, 110° LSA. I'd like to keep the compression under 9.5:1.

Every time I talk about building a larger more powerful engine (383/406)....I drive the car and love the way it drives now. I originally wanted an engine that made 325-350 HP and 375 or so FT. LBS. of torque on 91 to 93 octane fuel.

From everything I've read and even playing with my Comp Cams computer engine dyno, the Vortec heads and the S/R Torquer heads are about as close as any two heads can be. They flow pretty much the same at every lift point .100" though .500" lift. The Vortec heads are about $200 to $250 cheaper. I guess you can put 2.02"/1.60" valves in them too. I don't know how much gain they would get though.

shvlhead.45 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 07, 2009, 05:07:09 PM »

Here is a link to Scoggin Dickey Part Center with options for the GM Vortec heads. Prices from $389 to over $1400 or so. From bone stock to modified to handle up to .550 lift. Also kits including intake, gassket...

http://www.sdparts.com/categories/enginecomponents/cylinderheads/SDPCVortecCylinderHeadsandHeadKits.aspx

NYH1 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 08, 2009, 07:23:00 AM »

Thanks for the link. I was looking at THESE assembled Vortec heads from Summit. They have 67cc chambers which will help lower my compression ratio a tad over the regular 64cc chambers and have a max valve lift of .520" which will be plenty for my needs. My cam lifts will be .435"/.460" lift (GM cam) or 462"/.469" (Comp Cams). I'm leaning towards the larger cam.

About the only negative things I've read about the Vortec heads are the combustion chambers can run anywhere from 62cc to 65cc as cast. That kind of variation may or may not be normal, I don't.

I'm also seriously considering buying a finished bare engine block from Summit as well. They have two different blocks I'm looking at. THIS seasoned 1 piece rear main seal Summit block or THIS brand new 2 piece rear main seal GM block. I can use the summit block as a 350 or 383. The GM block is a 350 block. I could clearance it and use it as a 383 block if I wanted too. Like I said though a 325 HP, 375 FT. Lbs. of torque 350 would work really well for my needs.

shvlhead.45 · « **Reply #48 on:** September 11, 2009, 02:27:55 PM »

Having worked on both 1 piece and 2 piece blocks, I like the 1 piece rear main block because they don't have rear main leaks like a 2 piece. 2 piece can be changed w/o pulling trans, just drop the pan but 1 piece will go a lot longer w/o developing a leak.

I happened to get an add from Jegs today, see link for current add for Vortec heads:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Patriot-Performance/723/2151/10002/-1

2.02/1.60 valves, .575 lift ready with 64cc chambers and more, what you were looking for.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #49 on:** September 11, 2009, 11:27:13 PM »

ill go back to a previous recomendation. Call eldbrock and ask them what to buy as a package for a manifold carb cam and convertor. tell them the heads your using and the compression ratio your going to end up with and they will give you better advice then i can or anyone else here. They actually dynoed a ton of combinations and can steer you to a package that will give you hp and torque numbers and even the gas milage goal your looking to obtain. It takes alot of the guess work out of it and insures you get a package that works well together

NYH1 · « **Reply #50 on:** September 20, 2009, 06:01:54 AM »

Lloyd, the only problem with Edelbrock's "power packages" are they're either to radical or to mild for what I want. Their Performer set ups are more for trucks/SUV's and their Performer RPM set ups are more for serious street/strip use. More then I want. Their RPM set up needs 3.73/4.10 gears and 3000 stall converters to work right (cam dur @ .050" is 234/244), way more then I want to use. It wouldn't work to well as a daily driver. Unfortunately I'm right in the middle of what they offer.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #51 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:38:41 PM »

id bet if youd call them and told them about what you were wanting theyd help you put together something that would work

NYH1 · « **Reply #52 on:** November 28, 2009, 02:53:08 PM »

My engine is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE!

The block has already been bored .040". The cylinder walls look good. But I want to start with a block that's been freshly bored and torque plate honed. I don't know if this block can be bored to .060" or not. I'll have to take it to my machinist and see what he says.

I'm not going to use the crank.......and I'm glad I wasn't planning to. It's already been turned .020". Both the journals and the bearings look horrible. They are scored/grooved/gouged terribly. I've never seen crank and crank bearings torn up as bad as these are on an engine that didn't spin a bearing.

The rods and rod bearings are just as bad as the crank and crank bearings. Same with the cam bearings.

I was hoping the engine wasn't touched. It has been. I really wanted to use the block. I don't think I'm going to be able too though!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #53 on:** November 29, 2009, 05:35:38 AM »

thats pretty poor starting material. It possibly could be done but i think if it were me and i factor in all the labor involved in the maching and taking into account the time you yourself will invest just installing and removing id probably save my pennys for a couple more years and buy a gm short block, longblock or better yet a crate motor depending on what you can afford.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #54 on:** November 29, 2009, 12:16:46 PM »

let this be a sign to you that the Camaro gods want you to install some LS goodness.

NYH1 · « **Reply #55 on:** November 29, 2009, 01:40:45 PM »

I talked to my machinist today. He is going to sonic test the cylinders to see how thick they are. He said some blocks are thick enough to be safely bored .060" over and some aren't. I'll have to drop it off to him so he can check it and go from there.

I hope I can use it. All I want to use is the block, main caps, harmonic balancer and the flex plate.

We're throwing out the crank, rods and pistons. I'm going to hang onto the heads until I get the Vortec heads. Then I'll put them in the paper for a $1 (can't put things in for free or I would). Someone might be looking for a set of heads for an old work truck or something. These heads would make good cores.

pmeisel · « **Reply #56 on:** November 29, 2009, 03:07:44 PM »

Don't know your money situation but I would really be thinking short block about now....

Bigeasy · « **Reply #57 on:** November 29, 2009, 05:44:52 PM »

Might want to consider a crate motor. Big selection available, from mild to wild, and the cost usually works out to less then if you built it part by part. Most also carry a warrenty. The pics are of my 1969 Camaro I built about 8 years ago. On this car (Originaly green, 6cyl, 3 speed on the tree) I decided to go with a big block crate motor, along with a 4spd on the floor, new paint. Worked fine. My only mistake was cheaping out on the 10 bolt rear end - I ended up having to replace it with a 12 bolt, but that was kind of my fault...

A nice 350/350 long block is not that much $$, and would make an excellent performance motor that is street drivable.

Larry

Bigeasy · « **Reply #58 on:** November 29, 2009, 05:47:23 PM »

Oh yea, forgot pictures..

NYH1 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 30, 2009, 06:51:06 AM »

I can build a short block with better quality parts then stock for about $1100. $500 for my machine work and about $600 for a balanced Eagle rotating kit. I have to make every penny count. Even if I could buy a complete short block for $1300, I'd still build my own and use the $200 else where.

If my block is no good, my project is probably over with for now, maybe for good. We'll see what happens.