Author Topic: Antidepressants (Read 1337 times)

Questor · « **on:** August 04, 2009, 01:32:14 AM »

Beware of any prescription for antidepressants. The companies that make the antidepressants are the ones that publish the standard reference book of syndromes and diseases used by psychologists. If you go to a psychologist, it is very likely that you will get a prescription for antidepressants, and once on them, it is very likely that it will be recommended you stay on them. This is a national scandal, but nobody seems to treat it that way. Instead, the use of antidepressants is increasing.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-08-03-antidepressants_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:22:58 AM »

the first thing to do for chronic pain is try antidepressants ...the body can sometimes produce more pain endorfins if spirits are better..as an artritus patient they tried it on me at 35 yrs old but i didn t like certain side affects an then tried tramadol which for years was my buddy... it gave me several more hrs of work a day...
then recently i heard of cymbalta... its apprach is to work at the cause of chronic pain..
id recommend it to chronic pain suffers....it really helped my quality of life...
when my collar bone was broken it was more effective against that dull constant pain of the break than the hydrocodon they gave me...hydrocodon works a while then causes the body to decrease its on pain endorfin production.. . leaving you worse off than you were to start with..
been there done all that stuff...also hydrocodon may be habit forming for some,,but for me it just got so it was a big disappointment,,after being real affective for a while..
i just don t believe theres pshcotherapy from a head shrinker that is going to long affect pain relief for folks that just got bone against bone in knees ,shoulder backs etc...
its real an a real symptom of having used parts of your body up...
now they can replace them,,,if you can afford it..
i just had to quit inflaming my joints.. hence retirement before i planned,,an no more working out on the heavy bag..replaced that with a lot of walking...this has been my experience with
one very effective antidepressant pain reliever..it worked for me ... take it away and i ll hurt worse,,,but heck i handled it many yrs without it... pain an suffering is just a part of life,especially to old folk..
now if you are young an thinking aw its all in your head... enjoy your youngness ....your times coming ...when i was 28 or so i thought aspirin an other pain relievers were a gimmic
used on what would be called hypercondriacts... but not so i later found out..slim

teamnelson · « **Reply #2 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:54:41 AM »

slim, have you tried bioastin? super antioxidant and anti-inflammatory, and natural. Grown here in Hawaii (no not a leaf, its an algae).

questor, in my line of work I am constantly picking up after psychology/pharmacology. The DSM is the bible for those folks, and it is a logical leap for many to imagine a life free from anything, or that diagnosis is not a lifetime journey. Seen hundreds of young folks in their 20s peak out on the meds; recent data ties history of antidepressant use to higher rates of suicide. Are there folks who benefit? yep, the prescribing attendant, the company, and the occaisional patient.

Skunk · « **Reply #3 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:02:16 AM »

I'm inclined to agree that there might be some sort of scam by the drug companies to get you hooked on antidepressants. In particular, a dear friend was prescribed the antidepressant called Effexor XR and he is having a horrible time getting off the medicine.

If he tries to quit taking the Effexor, he gets an affliction termed, "brain shivers." Just do a google search on "Effexor" and "brain shivers" and see for yourself the horrendous effects of trying to withdraw from Effexor.

I've known many people who have been prescribed other antidepressants such as Prozac, Remeron, Wellbutrin, Zoloft, and others, and when they quit those brands, no side effects happened aside from experiencing irritability. But the effects were gone within days. The withdrawal effects of Effexor on the other hand, seem to get worse with time. Thus, it appears one can not readily withdraw from it. The only option for stopping the brain shivers is to start taking the Effexor again. And that to me is the scam. I truly believe that the company making Effexor is getting away with putting some kind of an ingredient into it that cause the dreaded brain shivers to occur if a person tries to discontinue its use. Nothing better for a drug company than to have life long, addicted customers. I'd never let a doctor prescribe Effexor to me or a loved one.

lrs · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:26:31 AM »

Effexor is difficult to discontinue.
Not b/c of anything the drug companies put into it, but just because it's mechanism of action is based on the effects it has on 2 major biochemical pathways.
Hell they don't have to add anything to it to make it difficult to stop taking.
But as with most medications, if you feel you must stop taking it, the dose should be tapered over an extended perior.
Any prescribing practitioner can easily oversee this.
Stopping any prescribed medication, cold turkey, w/o a Dr's oversight, is foolish.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:41:35 AM »

Interesting read but I think that these drugs are greatly needed in some cases.

One post talks of these being helpful for chronic pain. Nuff said but what about the other cases?

I personally know of three co-workers who recieved prescriptions based on upsets in their lifes. One guy who I would describe as self centered with a large ego came home from work early one day to find his wife in bed with another man. The second guy (a straight forward hard worker) had a spontaneous whirlwind affair on his wife and it was like it freaked him out when he realized what he had done. The third man found that his wife was having an affair and went off the deep end.

The symptoms of this depression? or chemical imbalance? were sever. They ranged from swinging from ceiling fans to punching holes in the wall to hearing voices. Their behavior could be pretty wild even though they were able to function in society for the most part. The meds were able to calm them (if just sitting and shaking counts as in the case of one) but they could still be spontaneously wild and animated when it was least expected. One of the guys saw me mowing one day and drove the car right up to the mower which was well into the yard! Our conversation was not really off the wall with the car incident being the main transgression. One of the others got in a heated argument with his supervisor and left the work place, leaving his car in the parking lot as he walked six miles down the middle of the road to home crying all the way.

Then there was the case of one of my older female cousins. Bright, somewhat haughty, excelled in municiple bands, left the State at a young age armed with a teaching degree and hung out with the much older, sophisticated crowd. Never married but one day started feeling like the floresent lights were emitting radiation energy and cooking her in addition to feeling that people were trying to communicate and or spy on her through the common wall outlets that provide electricity.

If you know people like this, you only want for them to get better. If you do not know them, but of them, you warily avoid them. The psycholigists say that the older you are when this happens to you, the longer that it will take to get better.

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Beware of any prescription for antidepressants. The companies that make the antidepressants are the ones that publish the standard reference book of syndromes and diseases used by psychologists. If you go to a psychologist, it is very likely that you will get a prescription for antidepressants, and once on them, it is very likely that it will be recommended you stay on them. This is a national scandal, but nobody seems to treat it that way. Instead, the use of antidepressants is increasing.

What to do? perhaps don't go to a psychologist unless greatly urged by family or friends? in the old days we would just throw the above group into a padded room (which can still be necessary in some cases). Perhaps we need a nation wide Psychologist Governor? Medical can go from bad to worse quickly as riddlin is administered to children in lieu of parenting. Does not seem to be any good answers to this problem.

lrs · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:48:05 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on August 04, 2009, 10:14:58 AM

Anti-depressants are usually fluoro-compounds. Another way to get fluorine into you. If you want to live longer don't take any drugs and take good care of your teeth...

..TM7

Drugs taken by mouth, are almost always manufactured as the HCl (hydrochloride), or HFl (hydrofluoride) salt form of the actual drug.
This is done mainly to give the drug stability in the stomach.
Another reason is increase the lipid solubility of the drug.

Skunk · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2009, 12:04:22 PM »

Quote from: lrs on August 04, 2009, 09:26:31 AM

Effexor is difficult to discontinue. Not b/c of anything the drug companies put into it, but just because it's mechanism of action is based on the effects it has on 2 major biochemical pathways.

I'll buy that LRS, as you seem to know what you're talking about. However, it still seems rather convenient for the company who makes Effexor. I had thought that Effexor was just another typical selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) like Prozac. I have limited study on the subject however, so I'm probably very wrong on my assumption.

Skunk · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2009, 12:06:27 PM »

glanceblamm,

Very interesting post above. Human behavior never ceases to amaze me.

teamnelson · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2009, 03:56:31 PM »

glanceblamm, I would disagree with your post only in this. All the people currently being treated by psychs or meds would not have been thrown in a padded room years ago. In fact, many if not most of them would have eventually been fine with the stronger support structures and social systems that existed. Mental health issues do not exist in a vacuum, otherwise mental hardening would be impossible, and we are able to do it all the time in military practice. In fact we're sinking more time and energy into prev/hardening because its proven to reduce need to treat later.

No, the problem today is not the fault of the meds, or the companies, or the "professionals." I spoke with 3 men today alone who's wives have cheated on them ... a strong shoulder to lean on, someone they respect to talk to and seek advice, a parental figure (which is oh so lacking in society today) who will speak straight, respectfully to them, tell them they're not a victim and remind them to take control where they can and accept when they can't. Yep, works all day everyday, and I'll get up tomorrow and do it again because that's how we survive. I've seen lots of folks who aren't just coping, but have left the depression, anxiety behind them, without meds. How liberating is that? To not feel shackled to a hopeless label, and go in each week to reexamine how messed up you are.

The problem is we have a weak society, a permissive society, that doesn't reinforce the innate need for all of us to have stability and security in our lives. Grow up smacked around by your Mom's boyfriend, or raped if you're a girl. See how that equips you for life. How about being passed back and forth through divorce like a valuable commodity, and not a person. Might mess with your self image. Work your butt off in school, or don't at all, and get the same grades ... what sort of ethic does that instill. No gents, meds don't fix those things. For many, effexor is as useful as crystal-meth: a distraction, but not a solution, and a cruel mistress.

Physical pain is a different thing; we don't often grow out of that over time. But trial after trial after trial demonstrates that those given a placebo have similar and sometimes better recovery than those given an anti-depressant.

Questor · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:40:01 PM »

A pharmacist friend of mine astounded me with the number of people on various antidepressants. Surely they are over prescribed. Does such a large fraction of the population require powerful brain altering drugs?

bubba · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:35:27 AM »

As a psych nurse practitioner I feel compelled to chime in here. I work for the state of ny on a mobile mental health team. First of all I do not get any kick backs for using any one drug over another or any one classification of drug over another. Are antidepressants over prescribed? in a nut shell yes. However they are over prescribed by general practitioners playing psychiatrist. Someone walks in the office and is having a problem pop them an antidepressant. There are two types of depression situational and clinical. Situational is a normal reaction to a life problem such as my wife cheated on me, a death of a loved one etc. There is not any pill which will help that as there is no chemical inbalance to treat, just a bad day so to speak. In fact medications will make it worse. This is the one the arm chair shrinks try to treat with pills, hence the over use of antidepressants.

Then there is clinical depression which is a true chemical inbalance in the brain. That is where an antidepressant will usually help. However the diagnosis is not made with a 5 minute visit with the doc and telling them you are feeling depressed. There is a battery of tests and clinical parameters that need to be met. Would you walk into the doc and say I have this cough and the doc says you have cancer and want to start treatment without any further testing? I doubt it.

Questor · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2009, 02:14:27 AM »

Bubba:

I thought the psychologists were over prescribing them too. A friend of ours had a situational depression because some guy killed himself by running his motorcycle into her car. She saw a psychologist and within literally five minutes she had a prescription for an antidepressant she has been taking for over 15 years. That seems kind of crazy. My understanding is that this sort of treatment is typical. I'd be very happy to read what you have to say about it.

Also, do you happen to remember the name of the reference book that psychologists use to identify syndromes and other mental conditions? I can't recall it. It has the names of each syndrome, and the recommended treatment.

Thanks.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2009, 02:17:36 AM »

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Team Nelson has a much much better idea. Bubba, good thoughts, too.

Agreed, I especially liked Bubba's explanation of Situational and Clinical.

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Wifes cheating...? Wifes aren't property. Listen to the blues for a few days or weeks and move on......

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a strong shoulder to lean on, someone they respect to talk to and seek advice, a parental figure (which is oh so lacking in society today) who will speak straight, respectfully to them, tell them they're not a victim and remind them to take control where they can and accept when they can't.

True and True, (at least to my way of thinking)...The story of my 3 co-workers were the only (situational) cases to the said extremes that I observed in my 30 years at that facility. It is always bad, but really not too bad considering the employee turn-overs during that time period.

gypsyman · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2009, 02:57:10 AM »

Boy, I thought drinking a couple beers or a rum and coke was bad for ya. gypsyman

bubba · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2009, 06:18:12 AM »

if a psychologist is recommending an antidepressant after a 5 minute vist, then they are a very poor psychologist. I use the dsm IV as my bible. It contains all the parameters needed to be met to make a true diagnosis.

Questor · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2009, 07:15:18 AM »

Bubba:

I've talked to a number of people about this over the years and have been always told that these pills are prescribed more or less for the asking. And everyone I know who admits to having gone to a psychologist has been prescribed some kind of drug, mostly antidepressants.

My pharmacist friend told me that, while she worked in an urban pharmacy, it was common for entire families to be on Prozac: mother, father, and a couple of kids. I told her how surprised I was about the number of antidepressant prescriptions I saw records of, and she was not at all surprised. This was about 12 years ago during the Prozac fad. She said it seemed like every other person with a prescription was getting prozac or something like it.

At the time I had the prescription history for about 10% of the US population at my fingertips. I was working for a pharmacy benefit management company, working with research pharmacists on some of the first software to detect and preventively report harmful interactions. It was a fascinating contract.

Interestingly, antidepressants were not the most prescribed drugs then. I would have expected things like insulin or antibiotics, but they weren't either. The most prescribed drug at the time was an anti-heartburn drug called Zantac. Within a few years it became an over the counter drug. I have speculated that this was because of financial pressure to make people pay for it out of pocket rather than through a benefit plan.

Thanks for the name of the book. I believe that's the one I was thinking of.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2009, 07:46:47 AM »

my doc gave cymbalta to me to try against chronic pain... theres a certain amount of depression that i i think ,,goes with that ...at least for me,,truth be told ..but nothin you can do anything about,,, that id found...except....
steel you mind against it...that works a while.. i can easily purposely, eliminate the pain with my mind...only to a certain exstent tho an only for so long...its then i have to just not talk to family an friends or i ll say something ,,i wish i had not...several times ive thought seriously,about getting a bottle of rum an just go to the woods..but i know it don t work...
its just life ...suffering is just part of it..ive seen people i wouldn t trade places with for nothin...
hives,alzhiemers parkinsons ,,i ll keep the cards i was dealt so far...at my age its a safe bet that last cards not gonna be to good..everybody got to go thru that lonesome valley...far as i know anyway..
but if you got chronic pain id recommend cymbalta.. give it a look any way... it ll help if you got insurance.... i ll tell you that right now ,it ain t cheap...good luck slim
ps quester a long time ago it seems anyway,,my doc said he thought mabe prozac oughta be in the water... the next time i talked to him ... i let him know what i thought of prozac an handed him my bottle..
you talking a real possibility ,,as a population control pill..prozac woulda stopped five younguns from ever being born if i had took it as a young man...of course they were already mostly grown when i tried it...
side affects of that stuff are just not acceptable...at least for this man...

bubba · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2009, 08:26:06 AM »

Questor,

a couple things to keep in mind.

1. Antidepressants are used to treat several things such as mentioned chronic pain. It is also widely used to treat anxiety which is an AxisII diagnosis (personality disorder) The only way according to DEA regulations a psychologist can give an antidepressant is to treat an axis II diagnosis. They cant for not give it to treat major depression which is an Axis I diagnosis. That requires an MD NP or PA. It is the first line treatment for anxiety disorders,so that is one reason it is used so much.

2. The side effect panel with antidepressants is quite severe, the most common is sexual dysfunction. So tons of them are prescribed and rarely used once the side effects are noticed. And you are correct with the statins used to treat high cholesterol and proton pump inhibitors used to treat acid reflux are the most prescribed. They are luxury meds so we can eat what we want and keep cholesterol and heart burn in check. Using them is a false sense of security the same as antidepressants for anxiety and for situational depression, kind of like mind over matter. Basically a crutch

Questor · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2009, 10:00:30 AM »

Bubba:

Thanks. That's fascinating. I'd love to read a book about this subject. I'm sure it has an interesting history.

lrs · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2009, 10:15:49 AM »

I am a pharmacist, at one time I owned my own retail pharmacy.
The biggest selling prescription drug entity was hydrocodone/apap, which is a short acting narcotic analgesic. It is generic for drugs such as lortab, vicodin, norco and lorcet. Each is a little different in the mg strengths of each drug, but if you tallied them all together as hydrocodone/apap, that was the biggest seller as far as prescriptions went.
The biggest selling product, in the front of the store, was:

Dr Pepper

no guns here · « **Reply #21 on:** August 05, 2009, 11:06:37 AM »

Kinda crazy that SO many folks have problems now-a-days isn't it. What the heck did they do before such pharmacological solutions were available? I'm sure many of them drank. I'm sure many of them beat their wife or kids. But I'm also sure that a large percentage just "dealt with it". In my opinion, a huge percentage of the folks on these medications don't need them, they just need to learn to deal with their "issues". I can't count how many kids in my son's elementary school and cub scouts and boy scouts are on "meds". Nothing wrong with the kids really. They aren't any different than my friends and I as kids... except we got our butts tanned when we got out of line. The kids today don't. Most of the parents don't give a crap as long as they can cram a pill down their kid's throat and get them to calm down. Of course those kids are inside all day playing computer and video games. Funny how if you get them busy and playing hard outside and don't feed them sugar, they calm right down. Burn out the energy and the sugar and then they don't have too many problems.

Over-medicated, under-disciplined kids who have no idea how to behave only become over-medicated "victims" as adults... we reap what we sow...

NGH

no guns here · « **Reply #22 on:** August 05, 2009, 11:08:03 AM »

WOW... I followed up a post or two by TM7 and I didn't find a THING to disagree with him about. The planets must be aligned funny or sumpin...

NGH

Questor · « **Reply #23 on:** August 05, 2009, 11:36:40 AM »

no guns here:

I find it interesting too that so many people have these problems. I have friends that take ten or more meds a day, and they are not heart patients or diabetics. One couple in particular is so enamored of prescription drugs that I feel it simply can't be good for them.

When I was working on the drug interaction project I had to learn a bit about how many prescriptions per month is considered a lot. Having had only one prescription in my life up to that time, an antibiotic for a wound, I thought that maybe three or four would be a lot. Lo and behold, one 96 year old woman was getting 64 different prescriptions per month. You could go down the date of service-- the date on which the prescription was actually filled for a person physically appearing at the pharmacy-- and see that somebody was picking up a prescription for her almost every day of the month.

Now this really amazed me because I thought that anybody living to be 96 probably doesn't need any of those meds. It also occurred to me that there have to be some potentially interesting interactions between all those drugs. The third thought was the volume of drugs. I could imagine her eating a cereal bowl full of pills every day.

Questor · « **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2009, 05:38:06 AM »

It depends on the pills. They may have to fill the capsules with the drug for you so that you get the prescribed dose. I have found pharmacists to be generally the most professional and dedicated, and knowledgeable, of the professionals I have encountered. I really admire them a lot.

64 was the most I saw, but there were several more with between 30 and 40. This is still quite rare, though. Fewer than one in a million.

10 is downright common. If I saw somebody with about 10 and Warfarin was one of the drugs, I could tell they were heart patients, and had probably had a heart or vascular surgery.

Lots of drugs don't necessarily mean the most expensive patients. There were a few kids on growth hormone, which at the time cost about $15,000 per month.

mtbugle · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2009, 10:56:45 AM »

TM7
As a practicing pharmacist I can tell you it isn't the counting 12 pills for you that takes so long. Its also a lot of checking while doing inputting of your perscription against other meds for interactions and dosage proper for your situation. It also is largely due to the other 350 or so perscriptions that have to also be completed. Seldom in this day of high volume production so is cheaper, does the average pharmacist even have time to take a break. Some of us lots of times don't even get to take a lunch. Just quick bite behind the shelves. It is not that we want you to have to waite any longer than necessary, it's just only two hands to work with at one time. Also many times the waite is exaserbated by having to contact the doctor to fix or clarify something on your perscription before proceeding. It is very hard for the patient to understand how much effort is put into each and every perscription to insure your safety.
Thanks Don Rph Pharm-D

lrs · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2009, 11:18:46 AM »

Amen to that. I am a practicing pharmacist as well.
I worked about 7 years in retail chain pharmacy, 5 as an independent pharmacist, 1 as a director of pharmacy at a hospital, and 7 years as a clinical pharmacist.
The stress with which retail pharmacists operate under is difficult to overstate.
Everything you said is true, and I could add more to it.

Leslie, RPh.

blind ear · « **Reply #27 on:** August 07, 2009, 11:31:13 AM »

I have a friend who is a pharmacist. Last year he bought a machine to fill common prescriptions. The machine cost right at $100,000.00 . The town he is in is less than 40,000 people. The waiting area of the store is no larger than 16 X 24. He has a full time pharmacist hired and other help. He works full time. There is a Wall Mart, Freds, CVS, Wallgreens and other independents in the town. He has some of the best, several hundred acres, of hunting land in the area-paid for. He is smart and plans well. Made a great carrear choice. He grossed over $2.7 million dollars last year. The machine still doesn't keep them from being busy.

blind ear · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2009, 12:07:59 PM »

Along the line of GLANCEBLAM's post. I work in a state mental hospital. We get court committed cases. The people that are a danger to themself or others. To make it working there a person must first learn to not "take it personaly". The cases cover the spectrum, depression, bipolar, OCD and the rest. Any type can end up in harm to self or others.

A common characteristic is never ending presentation of the symptoms. Thier energy to keep at what ever it is that they do never stops. It takes 3 shifts of people to be able to endure. The nature of the brain is to adopt what ever action is successful at attaining the wanted result. They don't have to think about it, the brain naturally keeps whatever is successful. A spider doesn't have a brain and it will leave it's den go out and hunt and return to it's den.

They will talk low or mumble to draw you closer. They will insult you to get a reaction from you that they can use to manipulate you. They might see the devil, God, Jesus, the govenor or a snake when they address you or strike out at you. You have to remember it is not you they target. If they call you a redneck honkey mf , suck my nasty or what ever else, it isn't you they are talking to. Don't take it personal.

These paitents can be put on the medicine that works and over time they regain control, act normal, seem normal. If they get off thier meds they go backwards and return to the holpital. Keeping them on the medication is a problem. The same medicines that help these often help clinical depression of otherwise normal people.

jimster · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2009, 01:27:18 PM »

Are there any cases where natural things could help them out, like certain diets, excersise and certain natural vitamins that could help some of these people? Just wondering if when all the tests are done they could change chemical balance in natural ways. Seems like there would be somebody checking this out as an alternative to drugs. I've seen in some cases where kids or young teens were fixed by lots of hard excersise and eating better where they calmed down if they were too jumpy/energetic or short attention spans, but don't know how this would work with really messed up people. Someone should study it though, be worth getting some people off all these things to dumb em up and make them like zombie's, until they let loose.