Author Topic: I may be going flinty  (Read 1783 times)

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Offline WD45

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I may be going flinty
« on: September 29, 2003, 03:48:25 AM »
Every time I buy a tin of caps anymore I cringe :x
I know they are still relitively cheep compared to other types of shooting but they are starting to take the cheep out of muzzle loaders being fun and cheep to shoot
Other than that I just want a flinter so I am looking for any excuse I can come up with. :lol:

Offline savageT

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2003, 07:27:32 AM »
WD-45,
Have you looked into the cost and availability of flints and 4F powder????
I'm sure you will NOT be saving money going that route.


Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline olduvai george

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2003, 01:41:46 PM »
Sir:  if you want to be absolutely economical, go to the toy store that has toy caps for about a buck.  make sure  by looking closely that the caps are almost # 10 or 11 size.  if you judge close enough, buy them.  take an old or spare nipple and turn it down a little so the plastic caps push on.  they will work.   olduvai george

Offline Smoke Ring

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2003, 02:06:10 PM »
If you get a flintlock Dixie Gun Works has flints for about $15 a dozen and they can be naped when dull so you can use them some more. I was shooting Saturday and I forgot the 4F powder so I crushed some 2F a little between two pieces of wood, to about 3F, and it worked as good as the 4F and maybe a little better, only had one flash in the pan. I have a trade gun smoothbore so I can make my own round balls out of scrap lead. Not too expensive and fun to use.
  Smoke Ring

Offline The Cast Bullet Kid

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2003, 02:58:29 PM »
WD45 - I know EXACTLY what you mean.  Here in New Zealand no. 11 caps are the same price as rimfire ammo.
I am paying USD0.80 per flint and get 50-100 good strikes if I look after them.  The cost of the 4Fg is negilible when you consider you get 3000 primes per pound.
I have a VERY fast flinter I build and love it.
Go for it.
Cheers

Jeff

Offline WD45

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2003, 02:18:46 AM »
I didnt say my excuse had to be valid. I just want a flinter :grin:
Gotta love the toy store cap idea though. Why shoudn't we be economical  when we can ? lets see here....
HMMMMMMM.......... If I use those toy store caps I'll save 3 bucks per 100 caps...... ++ -- +++ that means I should be able to pay for my flinter after about 200 tins of caps  :lol:  :lol:
It is amazing what you can stir up with a few lil ole words strung together!
New Zealand... Wheww.. thats a pretty far piece .... You guys still fightin the canibals and head hunters  and such :D

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2003, 05:15:28 AM »
You fellers are going about the economic figuring all wrong.

Ya gotta go by dollars spent per HOUR of shooting.  Just about any muzzle loader comes out shining thataway! :grin:

Flints aren't cheap - about a buck a piece - if you buy 'em pre-made.

If you've got a good lock and a good flint, you should get in the neighborhood of 100 shots per flint.

Also, if you've got a good lock you shouldn't need FFFFg for the pan.  Both my flintlocks I just prime with the charge powder.  The .32 I prime with FFFg and the .54 I prime with FFg.  Works fine fer me.

There's an advantage to using 2 or 3F in the pan too.  It's normally coated to protect the powder grains from absorbing moisture.  That coating will help your pan charge resist moisture on a damp day.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline WD45

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2003, 06:28:21 AM »
Ole Black Jaque makes a good point on all accounts.
Question.... did the real old timers actually carry 4f priming powder or did they prime with what ever they used for the main charge ?
I dont recall a battle being lost due to running out of priming powder ?
So whats the real deal ?
What do all you flinters out there use?
If we keep this up I just may learn something.... contrary to what my wife thinks :shock:

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2003, 09:22:17 AM »
Well the S.O.P. for loading a musket in battle was to bite open the paper cartridge and prime the pan FIRST (don't do this at home boys).  Then dump the remaining powder down the bore.  Then ram the bullet, paper and all, down.  Cock, shoulder, aim, and fire.

Or if you were a lobsterback it was cock, shoulder, and fire.  :grin:

Now, I'm guessing they didn't have two different powders in those paper cartridges.

I'm also told that if you visit enough museums you will note a lack of "priming horns" as displayed artifacts.

Of interest the same is said for short starters - you just don't see 'em in vintage poss'ble bags.  Nor do you see "short starter loops" on the bags.

Here's my guesses.  Some of these "habits" are inherited from competition target shooters.  See muzzle loading never did "die".  There always was a small bunch of loonies out there doing it the hard way.  But I'm guessing that muzzle loading did die among the standard hunters.  It was kept alive by a fringe bunch who enjoyed punching holes in paper.  

It was from that small group that we've probably learned much of our present-day habits from.

It's true, tight fitting patch/ball combos are more accurate.  But that doesn't mean you can't get accurate "enough" with something that thumb-starts.

It's true, FFFFg in the pan probably will speed up lock time - but only fractions of a second.

This sort of fine-tuning is typically the habit of target competitors trying to shave off fractions of an inch at 100 yards.  Just look at modern competitors.  Very few contemporary hunters go through the hassles and routines that the target shooters do - fire sizing brass, seating bullets right on the rifling, etc.

If you've spent any amount of time wilderness camping - the type where everything you have gets put in a backpack - you can appreciate how important it is to have things that have 2 uses.  

The old timers would carry gun powder in lead kegs.  Lead kegs?!  Sounds like hauling excess weight unless you think of melting the empty powder kegs into musket balls.

With that in mind - what uses has 4F powder?  Priming a pan. It's not much use as a main charge.  The reg'lar powder however CAN be used in the pan - it'll just slow the lock time a few hundredths of a second.  

Then think - if you have two pounds of powder with, one is priming powder the other is charge powder, and you take a dunking in the river.  Suppose by chance only one powder container gets wet.  You may be in sad shape ifn that'd be your main-charge powder that got wet.

That extra bit of lock time gained by 4F might make the difference between a 1 1/2-inch group and a 3-inch group.  Either way the elk/deer/bear/moose is dead.  On the other hand, if you and I were competing to see who buys the beer the 4F would be worth it's weight in beer. :gulp:
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline pendennis

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2003, 09:51:16 AM »
All, you have presented some really good reasons for the man to purchase a flinter.

My only addition here is the comment on the short starter.  While I know it's probably a competition thing, they do help prevent breakage of ram rods.  I've seen more than one break by a person getting a little too frisky with the rifle's rod.
Best always and make smoke,
YMHS Dennis

Offline olduvai george

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2003, 01:27:25 PM »
I have always used Du Pont or Goex in my black powder guns and commonly use the same powder to charge and prime. i don't use 4f except to charge a 1851 colt copy.  i do not use charge powder to prime with when hunting however , because as Mr Smoke Ring  discovered above , crushed down powder is in fact, faster to  ignite the pan than 4f or the charge powder.  that is because goex is coated/glazed which retards the formation of "fines" in the can, probably deters dampness, and etc.  i'm speaking of a well tuned rock lock here and home crushed 2/3f crushed down from dust to  less than 3f granulation.    i know you bow hunters know that a deer will jump the string.  i'm here to tell you they will jump the lock too.   at the close ranges some of us encounter.  if you think of military flintlock usage in shooting situations you will see why they used charge powder to prime. plus, you ought to see the flashole size on a original, new bess.  its huge.  i use crushed down powder for matches too.  by the way there is published data by lyman for 4f in the colt clone mantioned above.   good shooting.  george

Offline WD45

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2003, 06:10:34 AM »
Gentlemen,
Thanks for all the info and input  :grin:
I am on the same side of the coin as george and jaque on the priming powder issue. I came to about  the same conclusion after doing some research myself and you all have given some very useful info to move forward with.  As losg as we are on the historical aspect of things....
I would not say that 4f was not used at all .There were a lot of things that
were used by the aristocratic or elite sect that were not normally used by the common people due to availability , affordability or their social status ,
which all three contitions could apply to various overlapping degrees.
I also understand that the old mountain men did not take to readily to the caplock ignition. Caps could be hard to come by and if they got wet you were out of luck even though you had dry powder. caps at the time also varied in quality and reliability until the real hay day of the caplock.
But then again .... I have been wrong before , Just ask my wife :lol:

Offline Bob/FLA

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4f
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2003, 04:01:45 PM »
Just a word about 4F.  I never use it.  I prime my .72 smoothrifle with 2F, the .36 with 3F.  

4F does not have the graphite coating that the other gains do.  Since BP is hydroscopic, you will have severe issues in any kind of weather.  You should be able to prime with the same grain size as the main charge.  

The biggest problems with flinters are the flints.  Buy the BEST, hand pick if you can.  Look for nice even colored rocks, clear of white lines (weak points).  I live in Florida, but travel occasionally to Colorado.  I frequent a shop there and have my pick of the finest flints I have ever seen.  That little bag of rocks is protected and well kept until needed.  I have shot ONE of those flints over 150 times!  Worth their weight in gold.

Good Luck
Thanks!
Bob

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Offline mamaflinter

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Re: I may be going flinty
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2003, 07:08:17 AM »
Quote from: WD45

Other than that I just want a flinter so I am looking for any excuse I can come up with. :lol:


Well how about the fact that if your flint breaks, you can generally find a stone to fire the rifle at least one time. Try that with a caplock.

You can also use 3fg to prime your pan so it's not as expensive as savage T thinks.

Olduvai george Have you ever tried making percussion caps? Dixie Gun works sells a device you use to punch them out of aluminum cans and you use cap buster caps to ignite......

Smoke Ring the only thing I don't like about Dixie's flints is that it is a crap shoot. One time you order them they'll work well, the next set you buy will be junk. Been down that road before.

I'm like BLack Jaque Janaviac I too use charge powder to prime and can tell no difference in lock time. Black Jaque don't you know that if blackpowder gets wet, it's the ONLY POWDER that can still be shot AFTER it is dry? True it can't be used while wet, but it is still salvageable!

Bob/FLA You are right about the flints. If you can hand pick that's the way to go. But you have to know of someone who will stock them and alot of places don't feel it's worth their time to cater to the minority if they can tie their money up in something that will sell quicker. I settled my flint problem by going with Duraflints. Alot of people don't like them since they are considered by some to be manmade. They are not however. They are made from a semi-precious gemstone material found in nature. They are only CUT by man. We've been using them since 1993 and we have one flint that has over 3000 shots YES THREE THOUSAND SHOTS on this one flint and it's still going. You do have to occassionally resharpen them but much better than having to buy more.

Offline poncho

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flinter
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2003, 11:59:34 AM »
:D  :D  :D  :D
I have been using english flints for 18 years of reenactting,hunting, and pissing  people off out to the range ["spesially downwind]
I always herd that them "cut flints'tore hell out of a good frizzen.

as for needing a reason to buy a flinter tell the wife that you just wont have to buy caps any more and it makes you look sexxy

poncho

p.s. besides one thing that has a nipple can be problematic enough
talk straight,shoot straighter

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2003, 07:15:20 AM »
Mamaflinter,

I've heard about being able to fire BP after it has gotten damp then dried out.  Never had the need to test it - thank God.  I've also heard that the quality of the BP is a big factor in salvageability.  IOW, the fewer impurities the better it will perform after drying.  Another benefit to using Swiss maybe?
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline WD45

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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2003, 02:25:30 AM »
Thanks for the info.... Keep it coming !! :D
Mamaflinter, how much do those duraflints cost ? Sounds like that may be the way to go or would you suggest starting with a good quality regular flint until some experience is gained ?

Offline Winter Hawk

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DURAFLINTS
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2003, 02:36:45 PM »
Mamaflinter, I saw the comments on your website about the Duraflints and tried your contact for them with no answer.  Do you have a different contact?

Thanks,
-Kees-
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone

Offline mamaflinter

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2003, 05:21:40 PM »
No unfortunately I don't have any other contact information on Duraflints. Let's see, the last flints I purchased were custom order and I think they were $36.00 for 4. I do know that Eric has had alot of family issues (his mother is aging and lives out of state and he's had to do alot of traveling back and forth).

The standard sized flints 9/16" width were something like $25.00 last time I checked. We have no need to check unless we would have need for a special size. We've purchased so many duraflints that we have enough to equip every rifle we own (and a few have spares like the longrifles) with them.

WD45 That's the problem. I have never been able to find a good quality flint until we found the duraflint. So if you are asking ME to advise you on a flint, my suggestion would be that one. The unfortunate part is that they are hard to get hold of. The only thing I can suggest would be to try Log Cabin Shop or Mountain State Muzzleloading. Log Cabin Shop is in Lodi, Ohio and Mountain State Muzzleloading is in West Virginia. Sometime back I remember Eric saying that he had a huge order (possibly 2 of them) going to a shop and it was either one of these. I don't have their numbers handy but I think both have websites. I know MSM does. They may still have some of the duraflints on hand.

We purchased our first duraflints in 1993 and one of those has over 3000 shots on that flint. It's getting some shorter than it was but nothing like wore out. Hubby says he's lost about 1/8" on it (from sharpening) since he began using it.

Black Jaque Yes I would recommend anyone wanting a QUALITY blackpowder to try the Swiss. They have a small outfit going. The employees are all seasoned workers who are all quality conscious. The powder is made in 100 lb. batches and anything that does not match the companies pre-set specifications is pitched and they start over again. That's why there is so little variance in the lot to lot performance.

Offline olduvai george

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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2003, 12:58:19 PM »
momaflinter Sir:  i used a friend's aluminum cap maker so i'm familiar with it.  i did the toy plastic cap thing as a experiment just so i would know.  i like modern, waterproof, non corrosive caps best..  flint is finer yet.  good shootin.  george

Offline mamaflinter

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2003, 12:36:17 AM »
Quote from: olduvai george
momaflinter Sir:  i used a friend's aluminum cap maker so i'm familiar with it.  i did the toy plastic cap thing as a experiment just so i would know.  i like modern, waterproof, non corrosive caps best..  flint is finer yet.  good shootin.  george


I have to tell you I'm no SIR. I don't care to be called mama, but if you don't want to call me that my name is Donna.

Yea those capper tools will work but I don't think I'd rely on them. They're not the best thing on the market but will work for plinking.

Offline WD45

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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2003, 01:22:02 AM »
Those cap makers ( tap o cap ) have been around for years. I couldnt even remeber what they were called until I asked on another post. I have never known anyone that had one and have always wondered how well they worked. I have always wondered about the cap reliability and how hard it was or how long it took to make a cap. Maybe someone here who has one can enlighten some of us who dont know.

Offline mamaflinter

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I may be going flinty
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2003, 11:54:09 AM »
Quote from: WD45
Those cap makers ( tap o cap ) have been around for years. I couldnt even remeber what they were called until I asked on another post. I have never known anyone that had one and have always wondered how well they worked. I have always wondered about the cap reliability and how hard it was or how long it took to make a cap. Maybe someone here who has one can enlighten some of us who dont know.


WD45 What you do is cut aluminum cans into small strips just wide enough so that the tap-o-cap just barely covers the entire width of the strip. Then you begin punching out the "caps". After that you begin inserting the cap buster caps into the aluminum caps. We found that it takes 3 cap buster caps to make them the most reliable. However you have to learn how much pressure you can apply when punching them out (you get a special sized hole punch to punch them out. It again just BARELY will punch out paper along with the cap itself. If you misalign it and punch you can detonate caps. I know as I've done that a few times. Makes you jump but really harmless. Then we stored them in a zip lock bag with some cotton balls to absorb the little moisture that accumulates. You see you are given a small stick for inserting the caps into the aluminum caps. In order to get the paper caps to stick, we found that if you "lick" the stick and touch a cap it would hold it long enough to get it into the aluminum cap. So we added the cotton balls in the bag to soak up what little moisture is in there.