.45 Colt Loads/Ammunition

[dallas.moore]

Sorry guys, but I have another rookie question.  I just received a Chaparral 1866 carbine in .45 Colt.  The owners manual specifically says that “black powder (or pyrodex)” ammunition must be used.  I picked up a box of Winchester .45 Cowboy Loads for my EAA Bounty Hunter.  I also bought some reloads from a fella a couple of weeks ago at a gun show.  The reloads look identical to the Winchester.  My question revolves about the “black power” only.  Are these safe to use in this rifle?  Judging from the lack of smoke, when firing the BH, these appear to be loaded with smokeless powder.  Someone please educate me.  I’m much more familiar with my ARs and AKs. 

[Graybeard]

I would suggest asking the rilfe manufacturer but generally speaking any cowboy action factory load you buy should be loaded to original BP pressure levels. The M66 action wasn't a really strong one and being made of brass at least the original was that makes them even weaker.

My guess tho is commercial ammo loaded for CAS use should be safe but I'd check with the gun maker to see what they say. DO NOT try any hotter loads in it tho for sure.

[dallas.moore]

Graybeard,

It's really got me going.  The only thing on the barrel besides the manufacturer, model, etc., is “Cal .45 Colt”  (nothing appears on the barrel about black power).  The owners manual talks about the ammunition (including .45 Long Colt) developed in the 19th century was black powder… modern smokeless develops greater pressure… “it is therefore critical that you use only commercially loaded black powder (or pyrodex) cartridges of recent manufacture.  Use of modern smokeless powder, even in reduced quantities, is not recommended and is specifically warned against”.  Then in the next paragraph it turns around and says that the same model “offered in .357 and .44 special is chambered for modern cartridges and will safely handle current standard factory ammunition in these calibers”. 

To me it doesn’t make a lot of sense.  It would be hard to believe that same cowboy loads I’m using in my EAA Bounty Hunter would be too hot for this rifle.  I wonder if it’s a CYA thing.  It’s an absolutely beautiful rifle; the action seems smooth; looking forward to shooting it.  I noticed there’s a phone number on the back of the manual.  Guess I’ll give them a call Monday to ask what the deal is.

What kind of powder does Winchester us in their cowboy loads?

[Graybeard]

I suspect it was made by Uberti in Italy but can't be sure. If it were mine (which it is not) I'd shoot SAAMI level pressure CAS ammo thru it but am not going to tell you to do it.

[ggeilman]

More likely it is made by Chapparel Arms:

http://www.chaparralarms.com/

They are a different Italian outfit with a decent reputation from what I hear.

[Lazarus Longshot]

Folks, the pressure spike and pressure wave are totally different between black powder and smokeless. The pressure spike from smokeless is much higher but much shorter in duration than black. It AIN'T just bullet weight and fps!

All the commercially produced "cowboy" loads are smokeless, unless marked as "black powder" or "black powder substitute" (or "Pyrodex", American Pioneer Powder", etc.), and those BP loads are only done by small manufacturers or commercial reloaders.

I know little about the Chapparal '66. I've yet to (knowingly) see one at a Cowboy shoot. It's possible that it has a real brass frame, in which case smokeless might, over time, stretch the frame and render it dangerous to shoot. It's possible that the bolt won't take the spike from smokeless and will catastrophically destruct. I don't know, but they've got that disclaimer written in the manual for some reason.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I would suspect that the manufacturer knows a little bit about the firearms they're turning out. If it says "black powder only", I wouldn't even think about using smokeless, no matter how much it's downloaded. If you decide to use smokeless in such a weapon, please make sure there's no one else around; that way you're only endangering yourself.

[dallas.moore]

Lazarus,
Not meaning to argue with you, (I understand what you are saying about pressure) but why would it be ok to shoot the exact same rifle, chambered in .357 or .44 mag with modern loads?  I might be wrong, but I was thinking the .44 mag, if not both, would be a hotter round than the .45 colt.  To thicken the plot, the owners manual was marked for the 1873, which has a steel frame.  You are correct; this 1866 appears to be brass.  See next post for the rest of the story.

This is also interesting; the barrel is marked "Caliber .45 Colt", and says nothing about black powder.

[dallas.moore]

Thought I pass on what has happened since I originally asked the question above.  Monday I talked with a gentleman from Charter Arms (the company that use to handle the Chaparrals until about 2 years ago).  After telling him what the owners manual said, he basically told me he had no idea why the manual said that, and that as long as I stuck to cowboy loads I’d be fine.  He agreed that is was a little contradictory to say that .45 colts had to be black powder, but the .357s and .44 mags would handle modern loads. 

I also found out the gentleman I purchased it from had kept the same rifle, chambered in .357, for himself.  He seemed to think the loads he was using were hotter than the .45 cowboy loads, and he was having no problems other than the rifle shooting low. 

This morning was the moment of truth.  After giving the barrel a good cleaning, I took it out with 10 rounds.  For the first one, I held the rifle away from me and squeezed the trigger.  The round discharged and the rifle remained intact.  I loaded the remaining 9 and cycled the action and fired normal.  Not only did the rifle fire without blowing up in my face, but it actually hit what I was aiming at about 25 yards away.  There were two times I pulled the trigger only to hear a click.  Each time I pulled back the hammer back with my thumb, and it fired on the second attempt.  The last 5 to 6 rounds went off without a hitch.  Not sure what’s up with the misfires, but since they only happened at the beginning, maybe that’s worked itself out. 

I took it back in, cleaned the barrel, checked the bore, lubed it up, wiped it down, and put it away (next to my ARs and AKs, talk about a contrast).  The brass receiver and butt plate, just like the originals, has a handsome, distinctive look, and the wood is gorgeous.  Looks like I may have gotten a good deal; a brand new 1866 lever gun, for $434.  All in all, not bad.  Thanks for your indulgence. 

[Cuts Crooked]

After telling him what the owners manual said, he basically told me he had no idea why the manual said that, and that as long as I stuck to cowboy loads I’d be fine.  He agreed that is was a little contradictory to say that .45 colts had to be black powder, but the .357s and .44 mags would handle modern loads. 

After reading this I had to know.....so I went to Chaparrals website and looked. They don't list the 66 in .44 Mag!!!!!!!!! Didn't think they would! That action is NOT strong enuff to stand up to .44 mag pressures, no toggle link action that I know of is!

.357 manglem is probabl pushing it to the limit in that action.

[dallas.moore]

I believe they use to offer it in .44 Mag.  They still show it in .357, and that's what the gentleman has that sold me this one.

[Bigeasy]

I would be suprised to see any brass framed 1866 rifle offered in a Magnum chambering - the action desgine is just not up to the pressure.  I would personaly feel comfortable using such a rifle with cowboy level pressure smoleless loads, but you cant go wrong using BP as per the manual.  If you want high performance, get a #92 replica, or a Marlin 1894.

Larry

[dallas.moore]

For those that reload or know alot about chamber pressure for different rounds.  How does the pressure of a good .357 compare against a standard smokeless .45 cowboy action load (all other things being equal)?

[Graybeard]

About three to four times more psi with the .357 magnum tho there is no hard and fast "standard" for CAS loads.

[dallas.moore]

Thanks Graybeard.  That much? Interesting; I guessed it would be a little more.  That's another way at looking at my original question.  Thanks again.

[Graybeard]

SAAMI for the old Colt is around 14,000 psi I think and the .357 magnum around 37,000 these days I think. Those are from my head I didn't double check them. Back in the old days we loaded the .357 much hotter than today's SAAMI specs which have been dropped greatly.

When I first began shooting the .357 magnum in the '60s the standard was a 158 at 1550 fps. Today even 125s are much slower. It used to be a real useful round with some serious power factor to it. Today it's kind of a wimp in comparison. I'm not above loading to those old specs in my strong .357 magnum guns but would never discuss the loads used in public. Heck we all did it back then even the factories and I never did harm to one of my guns with those loads but nowadays a lot of weaker guns are chambered for the round and I think that more than anything brought about the SAAMI change.

[dallas.moore]

Lazarus,

Lazarus, Friend, you are the man!  (you probably have no idea what I'm talking about)  I talked with Steve from Steve's Gun ('92 specialist); got his number from the link you provided for my 1892 question.  This guy really knows his stuff.  We got on the subject of the 1866 Chaparral.  I'd like to pass on what I learned in case some other dumby (like me) asks the question again.

He says he actually preformed evaluations on this rifle for EMF.  The Chaparral has a brass PLATED steal action (seems brass was too expensive to make it solid).  He said "no problem with the .45 Colt".  When I told him what the owners manual said, he just chuckled and said the "lawyers got involved".  He went on to say, "yes, Chaparral did/does have some QC issues, but if I got one that fired and ejected, then I got a good rifle.  I know I feel better about having the plated steal receiver (which is actually what I hoped was the case.

Thanks LL, you done good.

[Lazarus Longshot]

You're very welcome! Steve (aka Nate Kiowa Jones) is a highly respected gunsmith, probably the top gunsmith in the US on the '92 (He jokes that when he started gunsmithing cowboy guns, all the easy ones were taken, so he specialized on the '92). I've had him do work on some of my guns, as he is terrific on alll the cowboy guns. I know he's done evaluation work for EMF, as well as warranty work for them. He's also a super nice guy.

I didn't know he'd done eval work on the Chapparal, but I'd take his word to the bank. I think my biggest concern with the Chapparal and smokeless was if the frame was really brass, and started to stretch (which brass-framed cap and ball revolvers will do if used with conversion cylinders and smokeless).

If Nate says it's ok with .45 Colt smokeless, there is nothing to be concerned about!