This is likely the wrong place to be asking this, but.....

[jamaldog87]

I recently seen a demonstration with a solid rubber slug.  It will kill someone close up, but out 20-25 feet will only deliver a brusing blow that should convince most to STOP.  For safety reasons I have been thinking of buying some, loading the gun with the normal 00 Buck, and putting a rubber slug in the chamber, It may prevent doing something I would be sorry for later, like shooting a grandson who had slipped in because he had too much to drink, this happened to a friend, he nearly went crazy after killing the boy.

I know most people say that won't happen to me, but it can!  Like the cop that recently shot his wife in Ohio after being aroused by her coming through a window while he was half-a-sleep, it can happen.  Generally, you are sound asleep wake up and respond without being fully aware of the situation.

I am not opposed at busting a bad guy's butt, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

I used to keep my noble 12ga with a rubber buckshot for the first round and buckshot or buck and ball for the 2nd. I also tape a flashlight to the thing.

[45-70.gov]

got some dead cot... before it went to over $40.00 a box of 10 . A box of buck is still under$5.00 for 5 , do the math .

like  i said....''except for the cost''
how  did you like  that  load??........or do you now feel  you can't afford  to test them?

cabelas flier came in the mail

S&B   #1 buck[12 pellets].........10  for $4.99           00 the same[9 pellets]

25   at $20    for  000 buck  in  410.......3 pellets

i  didnt call  for availability.....i  have  mine

[SHOOTALL]

To be honest we got them for long range geese and turkey and they worked fine except they destory so much meat as they go clean thru out to 60-70 yards . No doubt it would kill a cot. or small deer out to 40 yards . Lots of shot in them hulls .

[1894cfan]

Thanks for all the responses here, guys. I've got #6 2 3/4" magnum loads stuck in my 870 just now. I do have several boxes of #4buck 2 3/4"magnum, #1buck 3" magnum, 2 3/4" 00buck and slugs layed away in ammo cans, JIC.

[SHOOTALL]

you must be rabbit hunting , good luck with the bunnies .

[mcwoodduck]

Depending on where i was living is what I kept in my shotgun.
When I lived in Town I was worried more about 2 legged varmints climbing or breaking into the house.
when I liven in an apartment building i kept 1 1/8 oz of 7.5's for a couple reasons.
1) lots of pellets = multiple wound canals
2) small pellets do not cary far through plaster Board so I do not have to worry too much about hitting the neighbors if shooting in the house

When I moved out the the country and lived on 40+ acers and had to worry about Coyotes and other 4 legged problems and longer shots I would load 00 buck in the gun with a couple of slugs in the side saddle.
I was not worried about where the pellets would land if they went past what ever I was aiming for as noone was with in shot range.
the slugs were there incase I needed to reach out and stop a car or other.  Since I lived out in the middle of nowhere I could hear a car or truck pull up to the house.

Now that I live in a House in town again I keep a few rounds of 7.5 in the gun ( gun holds 8 have 5 in gun)with buck and slugs in the saddle so I can top off the mag with Buck or slug depending on situation.

[SHOOTALL]

OK lets look at this , you use bird shot because it acts as one projectile out to 20 feet or more has a shot cup to aid in this  , kinda like a slug . Right ? Have you ever thought about what a load of buck does ? Anyone checked the weight of a load of buck vs a load of bird shot ? is it that much different ? may be the buck is less than some mag loads of bird shot ,if it spreads the same then what do you gain ? if it spreads faster then you are better off ! 20 feet would put you in someone elses apartment in either of the apartments I lived in so what was gained ? The test i have seen disprove the safety factor of bird shot other than to decrese the safety in stopping your attacker . LEO's make a good example they would have the book thrown at them if they wound an innocent , what's in their gun on average ?

[mcwoodduck]

Shoot all,
Someone once told me that if you shoot a steak with buck shot you get 9 or more nice neat holes and wound canals.
if you use an = weight of bird shot you will turn that steak into hamberger.  More pellets taking similar paths.
there are some great surgeons in the world that will be able to make the steak with the big holes in to look like a steak again.
no one can make hamberger back into a steak.
The test I did on plaster board with insalation on the range at 10 feet was not having a lot of shot leave the boards.  Buck on the other hand would sail right through.
In the game of stop right now, rappid blood loss is going to be the winner and with many wound canals at close ranges I think heavier bird would be the answer.

[Old Griz]

Someone once told me we would have flying cars by the 1960s, too.

If the people who make and sell shotguns test bird shot for penetration and stopping ability and tell you it's worthless, I'm gonna go with them. And let me know when LEOs start carrying bird shot.

[SHOOTALL]

mcwooduck , I have had the fortune to shoot many deer with buckshot from almost contact to over 50 yards ( even with a slug ) to date none have gone out the other side with much energy left If they made it at all, i really can't remember seeing exit holes and we do look . I have found many pellets in the skin of the off side though ( most slugs do great damage and run out of speed in the first few inches unless they go end to end not hitting much bone or muscle ) . I witnessed one rabbit hunter shoot a deer broad side one day with #6 shot at 15 feet when our dogs run one by him  . We were deer hunting on the land next to where they were hunting and he got a free shot and took it . My dad killed the deer after it had run over a quater mile , dad said it didn't look shot as it was running full speed . We didn't realize the guy had hit the deer until we discovered the load just inside the skin next to the liver .
Please use what you like as everyone should , I will stick to 000 or 00 buck when my hide is on the line .

[mcwoodduck]

OK.
I too have shot a few deer with Buck.  And have only found 2 of every load out of my old 97 riot model.  That thing will sail one pellet strait and one about 6" some where around it and I have no Idea where the other 7 go past 20 yards.  But that is with that gun.  The new 870 tosses buck just fine.  But after the three hit and one lost with buck I grab a rifle.
had an uncle dump a two loads of 8's (he was Quail hunting at the time) into a Doe she went down into a heap from about 10 yards.  one hit was to the neck the other to the gut.  I think the neck shot had more to do with her going down than the other.  When I gutted her there were some shot in her gut as well as the wad, but the bulk of the damage was to the neck.  A 22 Pistol round finished her off.  She dropped at around 10 yards from him.  we are talking 15 to 20 feet max in most of the houses I lived in.
I also have hit a buck in the chest with #3's out of my 20 ga and did nothing.  these were small NC swamp deer. 
I am not so worried about sailing shot or slugs through a bad guy I was worried about sailing a round through my neighbors wall.  At 15 feet you still have the energy of 1 1/8 oz load moving 1200 FPS and still in the wad.  The same as 9 -00 buck pellets in a 2 3/4" load with more wound canals.
I have taken rounds out to the farm with building materials and built house frames with insalation and shot them to see what went through and what did not.  From your average room distance 00 buck will pop through one side of plaster board, through the insulation, through the other side of plaster board and through a card board cut out.  7.5's tend to get hung up in the insulation.  With the wad usually denting the other side.
I was testing for two reasons.  One was to see what would pop holes through the walls and get someone on the other side if I needed that, and the other was to see what would not go through the walls and hit my neighbors kids in the apartment on the other side.
We built about 4 frames and tested - 7.5, 9's #1 buck, 00 buck, 000 buck, slugs, the disk rounds that were popular in the 90's and some steel #1's.  We also tried some home made glaser safety slugs (Melting wax and pouring it into a shot cup filled with shot and then loading it.)
And the police do carry bird shot- Unfortunatly- Remember all the LA police with the scatter guns shooting at the Hollywood bank robers?
Bird shot!  I think #4's or #2's in a placation to the "Community" so shot would not sail past people the police were trying to STOP and into the houses/ Apartments of the locals.  Again I admit this was the wrong Idea.  In open areas big shot or slugs are needed.  No Arguement from me.  In an Apartment building.... I think Small shot at close range < 20 feet, is as effective with less chance to pop through the wall and hurt others.  Remember Hunter Safety? "KNOW WHAT IS BEHIND YOUR TARGET"  Changing that to Home safety-
Shoot what will stop the bad guy when needed and will not harm others in the room behind them or Next door.
And again read what I wrote- in the house I look at bird shot.  Outside the house where I wouold have longer shots I  stuffed the gun with 00 buck and carried slugs in the side saddle on the gun.  I now have a mix on and in the gun.

[SHOOTALL]

i hunt with buck were required by law but find it works great in guns made to shoot it ( one of mine holds a pattern at 35-40 yards with 000 buck you can cover with a ball cap) . As far as the construction material test i have seen several and like all test they differ as to outcome .
It seems important to survive the attack first and foremost .

[1894cfan]

you must be rabbit hunting , good luck with the bunnies .

Yup, two legged bunnies out of an 870 18.5" cyl bore. Of course, that's my back-up, the primary is either a Ruger Speed-Six 9MM or a Glock 21!

[1894cfan]

If you live in and appartment building, or have family members scattered through the house, I would stick with the #6 bird shot - deadly at close range, where most self defense shootings take place, but not as apt to penitrate walls and injure unintended targets.  You are not going to be taking shots past about 25-30 yards in this setting.

Now, if you live in the country, or have no kids scattered thru the house, then #4 or larger buckshot would work well, with a few slugs as back-up, in case it leads to a heavy cover - distance situation.   Just remember, its a lot easier to claim self defense shooting someone in your bedroom at 3am then it is, say, in an extended gun battle outside your home at longer distances in a parking lot.....  More then a few courts have held that once the immediate use of force to defend life is over, and you have the oppertunity to safely escape, and you continue to persue the persons involved, and to use deadly force, the claim of self defense becomes in-valid.

Larry

Larry, thanks for that. You're response is the most reasonable for my situation.
1894cfan

[Oldshooter]

Go to boxotruth.com and see what he says about bird shot for defense. I made me think!

[bilmac]

I reciently got an eye opening about birdshot. I shot a car windshield with a 20 ga and #6s. At any range at all the shot didn't even crack the glass. I had to be 10 yds away before glass spalled off the inside. It didn't look like any shot actually went through. At 5 yds the 20 finally punched a hole the size of a golf ball. If I had been trying to stop a car, the car definately would have won.

[SHOOTALL]

as a socity we have been conditioned to worry about the out come more than the act of self defense . If you are that worried then place the contients of your home to make shooting lanes and hard walls or areas to shoot into . That would make more sense than using a less effective weapon and load .
 What happens if your load of birdshot injures a kid who crashed thru. your door and later claims he though it was his house but due to the illegal drugs made a mistake . And no he has no memory of saying he would kill you and acting like he had a gun in his hoodie pocket .

[mcwoodduck]

Shoot all
I live in CA.
We have the most lawyers in the country
NJ has the most toxic waste dumps.
Only cause NJ got first pick.     (sorry Altlaw)
If at 15 feet the couple loads of bird do not have the drugged up kid bleed out....  Again at 15 feet the shot is still in the shot cup/ wad.
After all the tests the shot at 15 feet or less acts as a huge loose glaser safety slug.  Past that is where the wad falls off and the shot becomes individual pellets.  As the other man said with his 20 ga.  He made one big hole in a windshild at 20 feet that would not crack the windshield at 20 yards.
If the kid some how lived.  As Dee and other police will attest Druggies that are waisting away from the drugs live from wounds that would kill normal people.  So you are not far off from your question.
My defence would be that I used Bird shot to stop him and If I wanted to kill him I would have used Buck!
Hope I am never in the situation where I am reaching for a gun as someone is in my house uninvited.
last time was sureal and ended in a fist fight with me shoving him out of the house and me running back in to grab my 22 target pistol. (all I had at the time when I was in college)  The 1897 Riot model showed up to the house the next time I went home and that is when we started the tests on the farm to see what would carry through doors, walls, and what would be best to take hinges off doors as well as pop locks open.  We never did get to autos- just assumed outside of the house bigger round balls were better and slugs for cars to stop them and aim at metal rather than glass, as glass is a inconsistant material and a BB gun can break some glass and a 22 Mag may not break another windshield of the same make and model.

[45-70.gov]

when  i was  14  my dad  told  me  all  the details  of a woman shot with bird shot

don't know range or shot size

cross  torso hit   and  he  didnt  mention  size of torso

closest kidney had to  be removed   miltible/i  think teens   hits to far kidney

spleen removed

multible hits to liver

hundreds  of intestinal hits  and sections removed

just what i  recal  40 years  ago

that and she died....he was  up set  he didnt save  her

[SHOOTALL]

mcwooduck, I have had my home invaded 4 times , had guns pulled on me and knifes while working . Been shot at , at least the bullets came my way twice . One bullet hit the windshield of my truck in down town Richmond Va. while going thru. on I-95 . Forgive me but i want something that was ment for defense not bird hunting . Trust me when i say no gun is big or bad enough when your hide is in danger .

[mcwoodduck]

OK,
Has Richmond gotten that bad in the past 18 years when I moved out?
I understand your want and agree with you that the bigger pellets work better at longer ranges.
What we will do is set up some ballistic gell and shoot at it with bird, 00 buck and #4 buck all at 15 feet and see what the wound canals look like.  Give me a few months an I will post pictures.

[Oldshooter]

To correct a previous error-

Thats theboxotruth.com


http://www.theboxotruth.com/


When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

[SHOOTALL]

Its better now , I got here in 1955 and been here ever since . Went thru the roits of the late 60's and early 70's . The drug wars of the late 70's to early 90's . !8 years ago and before Richmond had a higher murder rate than just about any city in the USA we were # 2 alot of the time and in the top 5 most of the time . Just working in and around the city i have seen several people shot , stabed , beat . cars destoried "just for fun " and any number of other crime . One coworker had his car stolen and the cops were afraid to go into the area where it was reported to be . We went in at 6 am found it but only drove by and reported it . 3 days later a wrecker went and got what was left . The area was Jackson Ward , anyone who lived here would know the problems there back then . We just finished a job there in june a different place now but still dangerous .

In the 80's someone or more got shot just about every night .

[1894cfan]

To correct a previous error-

Thats theboxotruth.com


http://www.theboxotruth.com/


When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

Looks like I'm swapping out the #6 for 00buck and slug! Especially after watching the latest "Lock and Load" show on shotguns!! Gunny sure made a mess of a couple of them turkeys! Thanks, Oldshooter.