Firing Jacketed bullets after cast

[AtlLaw]

I know I tend to over study things, but I keep track of the difference in POI between 2 bullets of different manufacture fired one after another.  I do that because I think different jacket material will cause the first bullet of the second jacketed group to have a different POI then the following rounds.     Wait, that's not very clear... Let me put it this way... um, how about, If I were firing groups using jacketed bullets of, say, two brands, I would tend to discount the POI of the first round of the second brand fired because of the different jacket fouling in the barrel when the first bullet of the second group was fired.     

Let me just ask my question...    I'm shooting a lot of cast 45 colt ammo in my M73.  But I want to develop a hunting load with jacketed bullets.  If I shoot some cast rounds can I then shoot some jacketed rounds assuming the cast bullet fouling will have no impact on the jacketed bullets POI?  Or should I clean the barrel between shooting cast and jacketed or jacketed and cast bullets?   

[WayneS]

Noit sure about how much jacket fouling your bore will collect from 45 colt rounds BUT is's always a good practice to clean  any jacket fouling out before switching to cast .  I've gone from  cast to jacketed in my 30-30 and 30 Herrett contenders, the first jcketed round will always  be about 2 +- inches out  of the remainding test group.

[AtlLaw]

Ah so!  Thanks Wayne!  I kinda figured that was the case.  I'll just make it a point to clean the bore down to bare metal before I shoot when I switch back and forth. 

[Badnews Bob]

I use jacketed bullets to help clean my bore after shooting cast, Jackets will push most of the lead right out.

[BCB]

Atlaw,

I am not an expert, but I am mostly sure that firing jacketed bullets down the bore to clean any lead fouling will be a futile attempt at cleaning the bore.  It will quite simply and easily be recognized and smash/swage the lead fouling deeper and tighter in to the rifling/bore and not “blow” it out the end of the barrel!!!  This will, indeed, compound the problem—no more sharp edges on the groove/rifling junction to grab the surface of the jacket and, well, that might lead to skidding in the rifling/bore—not good.  Think about it, the jacketed bullet has rounded shoulders/contact points that engage the groove/rifling surfaces.  This will slide over the leading—period.  Do snow shovels have a rounded upturned end to gather the snow?  Nope…

Now, does lead fouling affect the accuracy of shooting jacketed bullets?  Sure, any type of excessive leading/fouling affects accuracy.  I would certainly thoroughly clean any jacketed material from the barrel before shooting cast boolits.  Sweet 7.62 and J&B Bore Cleaner come to mind and I use steel brushes—yep, never had a problem with bore damage and never will…

I predominantly shoot cast boolits and the copper fouling is not a problem with me.  The rifles/handguns that I shoot jacketed bullets in don’t fire cast boolits.  I have rifles/handguns that are dedicated to cast boolits only.  As a matter of fact, probably 99.99% of my shooting anymore is cast boolits…

So, thoroughly clean the bore when switching from copper to lead and visa-versa.  Use good cleaning brushes and chemicals to help with the process.  You won’t be sorry and you may actually find where the P.O.I.’s really are between different bullets/boolits…

Good-luck…BCB

[jsh]

This topic has been hashed a lot in years past. I tried the jacketed thing to clean with and it didn't work for me.
Any gun I shoot cast in on a serious side NEVER sees a jacketed round. My 1903, a marlin 30-30 ballard rifled and my BF in 30-20, see nothing more than a patch of Kroil, a dry patch then either SP10 or another kroil and I am done. The BF is closing in on 1k of cast this year. I went to 500 rounds with NO cleaning, then it got gummy from the lube and carbon during hot weather, so I gave in.
I don't wash my cast iron skillets in soapy water either .
jeff

[Graybeard]

Just more wasted effort. If ya like cleaning rifles and sich fine me I'd rather be shooting than cleaning. Did I mention I HATE cleaning guns?

Ya clean the lead out by shooting jacketed bullets. I think you're kidding yourself if you think it matters when changing from one jacketed bullet to the next. In .22LR ammo that's true and I like to actually shoot 50 of the new ammo before shooting for groups but not with centerfire.

At the velocity you'll be shooting you shouldn't get enough fouling from jacket material to matter. Ignore it and just shoot the dang gun boy. Dang young grasshoppers ya'll get too tangled up in minor details and forget why yer out there. Hint it's to shoot and have fun not to clean guns.

[billy_56081]

My question is why do you want to devolope a jacketed load in your 45 colt? Expasion will be iffy at best, and detrimental to penetration at worst. I'd use a good hard lead bullet with a large meplat. But that's just my choice.

[mcwoodduck]

I agree wih BCB,
I never understood how firing a jacketed bullet would clean out the lead and not make it harder to get the lead out.
If you are concerned with how lead will effect or how a Jacket will effect the group why not run a bore snake down the gun a couple times for each loading.  the bore will still be "fouled"  but the snake will remove some of the lead, jacket and other goop giving you a consistant bore to see each group.  I know some think the bore snake cleans guns and others think they are worthless.
I used to use mine as a stop gap and it got the bores clean enough.  I was shooting almost every week and would then do a full cleaning of everything dirty on a rainy or OMG hot day.
But back to your concern.
The snake is quick to use - two or three pulls through and you have a consistant bore,
cleans from the breach- the 73 is a pain to use a brush on at the range. and no gunk falls into your finger flicker's action.
they are cheap enough to have one or two per bore hole size.

[Graybeard]

Those of us who have been shooting cast and jacketed both for 45+ years and have hundreds of thousands of rounds down the tube understand even if the rest of ya don't. We've been trying to get the message across for years but some still refuse to listen. I guess you'd rather listen to some rag writer who's only reporting what others have said before him for the last 60 years.

[Badnews Bob]

Just ask Veral, He is the cast bullet guru and I believe he will tell you the same as Greybeard.

[AtlLaw]

 
Well, what do you do when people you respect have differing opinions!?   
Do I feel another meaningless and limited to the point of statistical insignifcance test coming on?   
More later, it's late, I'm outa beer, going to bed... 

[Graybeard]

Ask Lloyd he's the only fellow I know who might have shot more of them than me.

[AtlLaw]

I'm kinda supprised Lloyd hasn't said anything... 

[Badnews Bob]

Well, what do you do when people you respect have differing opinions!?   

Just listen to me of course

But seriously Loyd will prolly chime in here, but, you could also go to Verals forum and ask him he will answer you I am sure.

[mcwoodduck]

Well, what do you do when people you respect have differing opinions!?   

Guess this is why you are a lawyer and not a JUDGE!
Do I need to site president?
While both arguements have merrit.
I guess you need to go to the firing line.  shoot some lead and then shoot a hard jacket bullet then clean and see how many patches it takes to get the bore clean.
then go out and shoot the ammo in reverse and see how many patches it takes to get the bore clean with the same number of passes with the bore brush.
Then You can issue a rulling.
My guess is Graybeard will get the verdict.
My idea was just a way to get you the same bore to test from.  Fouled but with open rifling.

[BCB]

Well, I’ve been reloading ammo since 1968—do the math—not that it even matters…

I have no idea at all how many rounds I have fired and I pretty much doubt many other people do who have been shooting that long—I guess I forgot to make them down as I fired them…

I also run a dry patch through the barrel after I fire a group, especially with cast boolits.  It doesn’t clean the bore, but it removes any chunks of unburned powder or other debris.  A bit of fouling with cast boolits is acceptable, but limits get reached...

And I really don’t care who posts their opinions—gawd himself if he so desires—but lead will not be removed from the bore by shooting a jacketed bullet down the barrel—period.  It will be smeared like butter on bread at best.  And then it really becomes difficult to remove…

Yep, I clean my handguns/rifles most of the time before I go on a shooting excursion at my shooting range.  I have a T/C Contender that copper fouls so severely that accuracy absolutely suffers when the bore appears copper colored and it don’t take many round to achieve that.  I clean it will Sweets 7.62, J&B Bore Cleaner and a steel brush.  The patches have blue/green color on them a good many passes through…

As the saying goes:  “Cleanliness is next to __________”  Fill in the blank however…

Clear or dirty—been around people who live their lives both ways—I prefer clean…

BCB

[AtlLaw]

I went to the range today with cast and jacketed bullets!     And you'll never guess what the results were!   
I'll tell ya tomorrow... going to bed.   

[Lloyd Smale]

shooting jacketed in a gun that has had a diet of cast can definately cause the first couple jacketed bullets to be flyers. the lead acts like a lubricant and will actually give you more velocity until you shoot it out of the gun. Ive even noticed that using cast just switching to a differnt lube can cause point of aim differnces especially for the first few rounds.

[Oldshooter]

I went to the range today with cast and jacketed bullets!     And you'll never guess what the results were!   
I'll tell ya tomorrow... going to bed.   

Wake up Sir! I'm impatient! its already 0627 times a wastin! I've already chopped wood, fed the chickens and insulted as many as i could here!

[AtlLaw]

Okay, finally got a minute.   

Last range trip I shot a bunch more store bought cast bullets that I've been using to work up a hunting load for this year.  While groups were minute of deer at 50 yards, none really got my motor running.  My own cast, lubed and sized bullets did even worse...    Anyway, after they were all shot and I only had the 4 jacket bullets (240 gr. Hornady XTP Mags) I had loaded left, I wasn't expecting much from them group wise.   Especially since I had just arbitrarily picked a powder charge 

Now I've not shot anything but cast bullets in this rifle.  I haven't cleaned it in at least 75-100 rounds and haven't even checked for signs of leading.  But when I fired the 4 bullets they clustered inside a 2 inch group, exactly at point of aim!   

I know this doesn't sound that great, especially at 50 yards, but believe me it is, given my old eyes, a receiver sight and me wearing 1X reading glasses so I can see the froint sight!     It grouped as well as my M94 30/30 that I've also been working with!  So:

I've loaded some more with gradually increasing charges of 2400 and will accept the charge of the best group I shoot for this years hunting!   

I'll play with it some more if time permits, but I'm up to 7 rifles, 1 pistol and 2 BP rifles that I've got to get ready for deer season and less then 2 months to do it!   

Oh, and I'm not going to worry anymore about shooting jacketed bullets after cast!   

[Oldshooter]

wouda bet that wouda happened but I'm glad you showed it fer real! It was my experience back when i did things because i didn't know better than to try.

[Badnews Bob]

Yep. Me to.

[mechanic]

I'm kinda' a newbie at this following folks like Graybeard, but my Dad my brothers and I back in the good old days would shoot over 2000 rounds in a weekend.  My Dad would load them back up and we'd do it again.  We mixed all types and loads and never worried about it.  Yes poi might change with different bullets, but trying to figure all that minor stuff out gives me a headache!  The only damage we've ever done, was when my two little brothers began fast firing an ar15 to "shoot up" some mil spec, until they ruined it.  It got so hot metal was flaking off and the case stuck almost permantly.  When we reloaded for the .223, we did so with gas checked cast.  We shot too much to shoot all jacketed, cost wize.  My pop probably shot well over a million rounds and while he might not of understood the science behind it, he knew by instinct what worked.  He shot jacketed behind lead often, to clean the bore, and it musta' worked.

[gypsyman]

Hey Atlaw, ever hear of Zen. Be the bullet. Well, here's another. If it feels good do it. If you think that cleaning between cast and jacketed will make a difference, it will. Shooting is as much mental as physical. If it makes you happy, do it. gypsyman

[Lloyd Smale]

like greybeard i hate cleaning guns. I will clean a bore only when it gets so fouled that accuracy suffers and then if it does i know something is wrong with the gun and i either fix it or peddle it. Ive been using jacked or gas checked bullets to clean lead out of a bore for 30 years and never had a problem doing it. Some real anal people think that it leaves a bit of lead in the bore or irons in a bit of lead. I say so what! Ive never seen where a bore with a minute ammount of lead in it hurt a thing. Lead is a lubricant also fills any rough spots in a bore. Ask any competitive cast bullet shooter and they will tell you that there gun will actuallly shoot better with about 50 rounds through it to season the bore. Id be NONE of them would ever show up at a match with a clean bore. Another added benift to a bit of lead in a bore is it actually will keep the metal from rusting. Ive never had a barrel of a gun that shot lead rust sitting even for years. they have a microscopic laver of lead and bullet lube protecting them. Switching form lead to jacketed will produce a flyer occasionaly from the first cylinder full. Especially if the barrel has a little more lead then it should. Like i said lead is a lubricant. Thats why a lead bullet will with the same powder charge give a bit more velocity then jacketed stuff. After a couple shots of jackted to remove or at least even out any lead fouling a gun will settle in and shoot fine. I dont shoot much jacketed ammo out of handguns anymore but when i did i had a little differnt routine then most. I would shoot my gun (as i do with about any new gun) with about 50 jacketed bullets to smothen out any inperfections in the bore. they i would THROUGHLY clean the bore and then shoot some lead out of it before i went back to shooting jacketed bullets. My theroy was that again the lead would fill any inperfections the jacketed bullets didnt remove. I never worried much about switching back and forth as long as i shot a few rounds of what i wanted to shoot before i started doing serious accuacy work. John Linebaugh knows more about what makes a sixgun tick then anyone here and hes a firm believer in the theroy of seasoning a bore and my testing has proven him right more times then not. He allways said a gun shooting cast will not even settle down and give its best accuracy till about 50 rounds have been shot through a gun with a clean bore. Ive seen times where group sizes shrunk by half after a while. Guys get to anal about cleaning guns. they end up doing more damage to a bore or crown by scubing the hell of there guns with brushes then is nessisary. About the only time anymore i clean the bore of a gun is like i said when accuracy suffers or if i know the gun wont be shot for a couple years and is going to sit in the safe. Even then im sure i could pick a couple out of the safe that have been sitting there without being cleaned for a good long time.

[AtlLaw]

Thanks Lloyd.  Goog read!     As my Daddy always said, "It's a wise man that learns from the experience of others."