Hot Loaded .45 L.C. compared to .454 Casull

[RIFLE MAN]

Friends,
Would someone in the know please do the following: list the stats between a hot loaded .45 L.C. and the factory loads available for the .454 Casull? Are they close? Is the .454 Casull "needed" over the .45 L.C. UNLESS one is going to handload the Casull cartridge?

Thanks to all,
Rifle Man  

[Lloyd Smale]

factory loaded .454 is hot! you will not get .45 colt to go to the same speed with same chamber pressures. Dont even try it. But the good thing is that if your shooting cast bullets it dont do a pinch of good to go over 1400fps with them anyway. When we do penetration tests we find that if you exceed that speed the penentration usually suffers.

[coug2wolfs]

RIFLE MAN

Two very differnt animals, though the 454 Casull was bred from the 45 LC.

In "normal" guns, the 300 grain Winchester loading WILL do a legit 1700 fps, whereas the 45 LC in a FA gun will be at the upper end around 1300 to 1350 fps...or so.

Make no mistake of it, the 45 LC in a strong handgun will edge the 44 mag in killing power by a goodly amount.  

In the killing field, the 454 Casull has no peers in my observations.  I would give it te edge over even the 475 Linebaugh and 500 Linebaugh for just raw slap down power.

Russian boars have been said to be the poor man's Cape Buffalo.  They're tough as nails and if not hit hard with something adequate, they more often than not will charge.  IMO, ANYTHING that drops em as fast as the 454 is a serious arm indeed.

I, as well as others, have asked for the 454 in a lever gun as this would be just about the berries for puckerbrush shooting, animals that shoot back, and in general, just about all we shoot that is edible  :wink:   It would seem that a 300 grainer would easily make 2000 fps + out of a 20 inch carbine barrel, and as most already know, the 454 is one very accurate cartridge, even in the handgun.

If I were to want a 45 cal in a lever gun I reckon I would go with Marlin over Winchester as I have never been a fan of the Winchester lever guns.  Too, they rattle like castinets, and most do well to group 4 inches at 50 yards.  The Marlins just plain shoot better, and as far as I'm concerned, are stronger than their competitor.

I'd load up some 300 Hornady XTP pills over a proper does of 296 that was loaded top end for the Ruger Redhawk.  Providin there were no pressure signs in the rifle, I'd sneak up a bit from there.  Once I got in the neighborhood of 1500 fps I'd call it a deal and go light something up with the combo.

I would think it would be the cat's meow on good sized rooters, as in my observations, the 45 LC does em nicely out of the handgun.

On the other hand, if you just want to pound the snot outa em with an off the shelf 454 Casull, I would opt for a Raging Bull Taurus as it is affordable, and man do them suckers ever shoot!

Just my 2 cents on the subject  

[w30wcf]

Rifle Man,
I have owned a Marlin .45 Colt Cowboy rifle since 1997 and in  my experience, the .45 Colt in a rifle = a .454 in a handgun and at a lot less pressure.

One of the loads I use in this rifle is a 330 gr. LBT bullet and W296 powder which gives 1,640 f.p.s.  This load  had been tested at the Hodgdon Ballistic Lab and generated 30,000 c.u.p.  

By comparison, it will take 55,000+ c.u.p. to achieve similar ballistics in a .454 handgun.

coug2wolfs,
That was a lot more than .02 ..... it was at least $1.00 and worth every single penny!  Thank you.

w30wcf

[coug2wolfs]

w30wcf

 In that case I'll take the $.98 change  

Thank ye kindly.

[John Y Cannuck]

How about a hot loaded 44-40 just for comparison?
I'm thinking of making up a late '92 Winchester in 44-40. Anyone done any work on hot loads for it?
(Obviously not in the Casull league)

[Lloyd Smale]

We have done ALOT of penetration testing and what we found is that when you go over 1400fps you arent gaining anything. Even good hard cast bullets start failing. Jacketed bullets fail at all velocities! But when pushed hard over 1500fps they will allways fail. You couldnt get me to shoot something with a xtp at 2000fps. No jacketed handgun bullet is designed to hole together at those speeds Youd better not even hit a rib bone at those speeds or your asking for possible bullet failure. The .454 may make some spectactular kills with jacketed bullets. But so will a 22-250 Testing has shown that the .500 and especially the .475 are in a different league as far as penentration then any .454 load. Done enough testing to convince this guy that the .454 wont do a dammed thing more then a heavy loaded .45 colt on game or in testing! All your gaining for the noise and recoil is a little bit more trajectory if your capable of shooting out near the 100 yard mark and few are! If you want more power then a .45 300 grainer will give you then you need more bullet size!! ANyone that knows me here knows that I speak without BS I test my bullets and test them ALOT! If you have a .454 load that will out penetrate our best .475 loads and kill as well as the .475 and .500 or better then a hard cast 300 loaded to 1300fps in a .45 colt believe me im all ears but i doubt if its one we havent allready tried and tried alot! NOTHING wrong with the .454 to me its a great gun with the right load but its like the linebaugh max guns they make noise and kick like hell and dont do anything the standards wont! You can argue with me till your blue in the face but until you can produce solid shot tested evidence to show me Im going to tell you I know better!

[John Y Cannuck]

So Lloyd, you figure magnumitise is the real problem?

[w30wcf]

coug2wolfs,
Please post your address and I'll send you the whole dollar right away!

John Y Cannuck,
I don't have any experience, but a DuPont IMR Powder phamplet dated  1935 shows 29 grs. of IMR 4227 with a 200 gr. bullet doing 1,890 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.  A 1940's Ideal handbook shows that same loadong along with 27.5 grs. of Hercules 2400 giving 2,100 f.p.s.

By comparison, the .44 Magnum case has very close to the same capacity as the .44-40. Hodgdons data manual #26 shows the following loads with a 200 gr. bullet in a .44 Magnum 20" barrel:
25 grs. H4227 -1,756 f.p.s.
25 grs. IMR 4227 - 1,755 f.p.s.
21.5 grs. 2400 - 1,809 f.p.s.
26 grs. H110 - 1,944 f.p.s.
26 grs. W296 - 1,951 f.p.s.

Hope that helps.

Lloyd Smale,
Thank you for the info.  Is the 1,400 f.p.s. you referenced, impact velocity?

Thank you,
w30wcf

[John Y Cannuck]

Thanks w30wcf those look plenty warm enough.

[Lloyd Smale]

John Like I said theres nothing wrong with the .454 or even the linebaugh maxs theres one advantage to them you can get 1300-1400 fps with less pressure but thats about it. The velosities im refering to are from the muzzle. In all actuallity we find little differnce when you get over 1200 fps and start seeing troubles after 1400. The softer bullets deform and the harder ones start to loose there noses. What we shoot into is 2 inches of wet print followed by nuckle bones from cattle then into more wet print. Its a rare jacketed bullets that makes it more then 6 inches after hitting bone and most dont even make it through.  The best we see is usually at around 1300fps with bullets cast out of 5050 wheelweight and lynotpe. There hard enough without being brittle like pure lynotype or heat treated ww. Youd be ammazed how much penetration you can get out of something like a .44 special shooting hard cast at 900fps itll give the magnums a run for there money every time. Guys that know like John linebaugh will tell you how much these and the .45 colts at the same velocity will do on game.

[Lloyd Smale]

ps if you want to do testing of your own a couple inches of hardwood like boards from pallets are pretty close to bones in testing.

[wesco]

coug2wolfs,

Rossi is making a .454 lever gun that by all reports shoots great, and is holding up to the 65k psi loads. I have seen a lot of posts by EXTREMELY happy owners.

http://www.legacysports.com/newproducts/index.htm

That said, I will have to go with Lloyd Smale on the velocity issue. I have done a fair amount of penitration tests with my 45 LC's and 45-70's and pushing casts past 1400-1600 mark just pounds you with more recoil for no better results. My 45 lc rifle load is a 335 cast performance at 1400 out of the rifle and it HITS HARD, and pentrates MORE then the same bullet at 1650.

In the 45-70 penitration goes up a TINY bit with my 420 cast performance going from 1400 to 1600, but no much at all. Past 1600 penitration goes DOWN. There have been many well documented studies that have all given the same results with cast bullets.

Wesco

[Turbo]

I bought one of the Puma 454 Casull/45 Colt lever actions from Legacy Sports and I love it! I'm in the process of getting a bullet mold so I can cast proper diameter bullets. My rifle has groves of .4529 and a bore of .4462. So far, the only cast bullets I've shot with it have been undersized by a thousanths or more. I want a mold to cast at .454 diameter and about 260 grains.

The rifle is lots of fun to shoot. It has the abiltiy to load either 454 Casull or 45 Colt rounds directly into the magazine via an elongated hole near the muzzle. It is set up like many 22 long rifle lever actions regarding loading. You can also load 45 Colt via the normal loading gate in the receiver.  I sure like loading rounds through the upper hole near the muzzle.  It just takes a few seconds to get (10) 45 Colt or (9) 454 Casull cartriges loaded. My thumb starts hurting pretty quickly while loading other lever actions, but not with this one.

My rifle is the stainless steel version and boy is the action smooth. All of my reloads have feed flawlessly.

So far I have only fired a few 454 Casull factory rounds through it. They cost almost a buck apiece and I'm too cheap to do much of that. Recoil with the 454 Casull factory rounds has been moderate.

I figure I can use the rifle for plinking and target practice with the 45 Colt loads. For big game like elk, I would go with the 454 Casull with heavy bullets.

Have fun!

Jon

[w30wcf]

John Cannuck,
Glad to be of assistance. If you do try any of those loads please let us know how thay worked for you.

Lloyd Smale,
Thank you for the further information. I was reviewing the penetration tests done at the 2001 Linebaugh seminar.  Those big .45 -.50 caliber cast bullets do penetrate a bunch!
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm

Thanks again,
w30wcf

[MI-shooter]

Check out the January 1991 issue and Ken Waters has a series of loads for the Winchester Trappers that will get your attention.

[WD45]

That penetration test article was very interesting. John Linebaugh wrote an article that I believe is posted on the single action 45 sight and I believe it is called " 45 colt dissolving the myth " which also has some very good info. What Mr. Smale is saying is pretty much what the great Elmer Keith preached for years which is simply stated as heavy bullets at a modest velocity. I think it is the natural tendency for people in general to think that if a bullet penetrates 30 inches at 1200 FPS then it should go farther at a higher velocity.... more is better.. That assumption is made without ANY testing or thought to ANY of the variables involved. This goes right along with magnumitus and the theory that when a new hot cartridge comes out, what you have been killing deer with for years will no longer kill a squirrel let alone something like a deer. Some of this is attributed to the marketing guru's and Gunzines.... It's how they sell new guns.
If you talk to enough people you will be suprised at how many people actually think this way.

[454Puma]

OK I have a question? What besides Cape Buffalo/Elephant or Rhino needs more then 30" of penertration? What a deer is 16" max Elk maybe 25" if it a big one Moose 30" ?  What I'm saying penetrate 30 " on any animal and your in the vitals- except maybe TX heart shot moose/elk. Use that same criteria  for your favorite rifle caliber most stop at 20 "!! So are all the rest inadequate for hunting?  Come on guy's we know this isn't true -I'll take my 454 Rossi 300 gr Cast WFN at 1995 fps and drill holes completly through Mulely/Elk /Beer!  :grin: