New Respect for the old 30-30

[Sourdough]

I for one had always thought the 30-30 was an old obsolete Black Powder cartridge that should be let die.  Yes I know it has killed more whitetail than all the other cartridges put together.  It's use by the Good Ole Boys down in the south and the eastern states, has been the only factor holding it to life.  Their feeling "It was good enough for Grandad, It's good enough for me" kept it in use. 

I always felt I wanted something more myself.  Over the years I have ended up with a 30-30 three differant times, through trades, or for debts owed.  I always gave them away to friends or relatives since I did not want one.

Now I have to say after the last hunt this week I have to change my mind.  KP and his son went on a Caribou hunt with me and my hunting partner.  KP had his son Kyle shooting a 30-30 with those new leverlution cartridges.  Kyle shot his Caribou at around 150 yards.  Caribou dropped on the spot.  Bullet was found on the off side just under the hide.  KP then took the gun and shot the other one at about the same distance with the same effect.  Bullet was later found in the muscle just under the surface, another half inch and it would have exited the animal. 

When are they going to put those bullets on the market for us reloaders?

[Skunk]

When are they going to put those bullets on the market for us reloaders?

You can buy the 160 Grain Flex Tip, Hornady LeverEvolution Bullets for 30-30 Winchester at MidSouth:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000330395

[Spanky]

The 30-30 is still around for one reason... it works
I wouldn't be without a good 30-30 in the house.



Spanky

[Badnews Bob]

We like them down south here mainly for one reason, most of our shots are up close and personal, A quick handling lever gun in .30-30 makes short work of a whitetail or a blackie no problem, or a hog or squirrel or revanuers.


BTW the ole .30-30 was not designed as a black powder cartridge, it used that new fangled smokeless stuff. 

[Lone Star]

I for one had always thought the 30-30 was an old obsolete Black Powder cartridge that should be let die....

As stated the .30-30 was never loaded with BP - it was the first smokeless commercial cartridge.  But I agree, new bullets have made it a 'new' cartridge.  Those of use who have loaded it in single shot handguns and rifles using 150-grain BTips have know this for many years.  I took several Kodiak Island blacktails with mine before I switched to the .300 Savage.  Really didn't see much difference in terminal performance unless the range was over 200 yards.



.

[mannyrock]

  A remarkably efficient and accurate cartridge. A pure pleasure to shoot.  An example of a PERFECT match-up for the task of killing medium game out to 200 yards.  A textbook illustration of "Less is More."    It seems as if only people over 50 understand this.  (Those under 50 have to go through the Magnum Phase before they get it.)   :-)


Regards,

Mannyrock

[Sourdough]

Badnews & Lone Star:  I have read several things that both support and dispute that claim about the Smokless Powder.  Many of the things I have read state that the 30 WCF first was loaded with Black Powder.  Then when Smokeless powder came along, it was the cartridge used to promote the new smokeless powder.  At that time the name was changed to 30-30 to designate 30 grs of the new smokeless powder. 

Another claim is that Marlin decided to use the new smokeless powder version.  Marlin did not want to put 30 WCF on their guns so they started calling it the 30-30.

Thus my prior view of looking at it as an old Obsolete Black Powder cartridge.  History is so full of contradictions.

[R.W.Dale]

Then when Smokeless powder came along, it was the cartridge used to promote the new smokeless powder. 

The problem with this is smokeless powder predates the 30wcf by almost a decade (8mm Lebel 1886)

[Casull]

A remarkably efficient and accurate cartridge.

It may be efficient, but if the 30-30 is "remarkably accurate", then pretty much every other cartridge is remarkably accurate.   

[quickdtoo]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

The .30-30: A Historic Overview

by 30 WCF

Today what is known as the .30-30 began life as the .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS. In 1891, the Winchester Repeating Arms Company first began experimenting with smokeless powder to develop a higher velocity smokeless cartridge that would bear the Winchester name. They decided on .30 caliber after working with the military on the development of the .30 U.S.Army (.30-40) cartridge.

When the 1894 Winchester rifle was on the drawing boards, they ultimately decided to use the .38-50 Ballard cartridge case of 1876, and neck it down to hold a 160 gr. .30 Caliber "metal patched" bullet.

The resultant .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS cartridge which carried the .30 W.C.F. (Winchester Center Fire) designation on the head stamp, first appeared in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. Several months prior to this, the first ads announcing the arrival of this cartridge began appearing in the sporting press.

Three months after WINCHESTER’s first advertisement of their new .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS cartridge, their biggest competitor, the Marlin Firearms Company, announced their version of this cartridge chambered in their model 1893 rifle. Since Marlin did not manufacture ammunition, it worked closely with the Union Metallic Cartridge Company (U.M.C.) located in Bridgeport, Connecticut. U.M.C. replicated the .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS cartridge but gave it a different name. Since 30 grains of smokeless powder was initially used in this cartridge, they named it the .30-30. Cartridges were head stamped U.M.C. / .30-30 S. The S was dropped from the headstamp within a few years.

The name .30-30 followed the prevailing practice of that period where the first number designated the caliber in inches and the second number the powder charge in grains, however, in this case, the second number denoted the charge in grains of smokeless powder used rather than black powder as with such cartridges as the .32-40, .38-55, .45-70, .45-90, etc.

When it was introduced in 1895, the first Winchester ammunition contained a 160gr. “metal patched” bullet at a published 1,970 f.p.s. The 170gr. loading appeared a year later from U.M.C. but it wasn’t until 1903 when Winchester also offered the same 170 gr. loading. I guess they felt the 160 gr. bullet worked well enough!

In December of 1896, the first .30 W.C.F. “Short Range” cartridge appeared. The cartridge illustration was shown as the .30-6-100 since the cartridge contained a 100 gr. lead bullet and 6 grains of powder. It was described as “for small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary". It effectively gave .32-20 performance.

Winchester recognized the benefit and increased versatility that a factory loading for small game would offer, since the average family would have to sacrifice at least a month’s pay to buy just one rifle, and that one rifle was just about all that most families could afford. With his or her magazine full of these .30 W.C.F. “Short Range” rounds, hunters could use their big game rifles to harvest turkeys, squirrels and other small game animals with no meat loss. Then, if bigger game was expected to be encountered, a quick change to the standard .30 W.C.F. cartridge would handle that situation.

A few months later, Marlin followed suit with their .30-30 MARLIN SMOKELESS “Short Range” cartridge made by U.M.C.

In 1904, Winchester increased the lead bullet weight from 100 to 117 grs. and the following year, they also offered a 117 gr. soft point and a 117 gr. full metal patch version.

These “Short Range” cartridges were easily identified as having a cannelure part way down the case neck. Originally, it was used to keep the soft lead bullet from being pushed into the case under spring pressure while in the magazine. It was not needed with the metal patched bullets, but was retained to distinguish them from the full power .30 W.C.F. cartridges which looked similar.

Winchester cartridges retained the .30 W.C.F. designation on their headstamps and advertising up until about 1946 after which they changed their nomenclature to .30-30. Interestingly, today it's called the .30-30 Winchester but it was Marlin & U.M.C. that gave it that designation.

Over the years, it has been known as the:

                *

                  .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS
                *

                  .30 WINCHESTER
                *

                  .30 W.C.F.
                *

                  .30-6-100
                *

                  .30 Marlin
                *

                  .30-30 MARLIN SMOKELESS
                *

                  .30-30 S.
                *

                  .30-30 W.C.F.
                *

                  .30-30 Win.
                *

                  .30 American (Federal case, small primer)
                *

                  DWM 543 (Germany)
                *

                  7.62x51R (Europe)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

.30-30 Winchester
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The .30-30 Winchester/.30 Winchester Center Fire/7.62x51Rmm cartridge was first marketed in early 1895 for the Winchester Model 1894 lever-action rifle.[2] The .30-30, as it is most commonly known, was America's first small-bore, sporting rifle cartridge designed for smokeless powder. The .30-30 is one of the most common deer cartridges in North America.

Naming

Although the original name is .30 WCF, the -30 in the designation was added to the name by Marlin, who did not want to put the name of rival Winchester on their rifles when they were chambered for the cartridge soon after its introduction[3]. The -30 stands for the standard load of 30 grains (1.9 g) of early smokeless powder, which was on par with IMR/DuPont's 4064. Over time Marlin's variation on the name stuck, though ".30 WCF" is also used.

[Badnews Bob]

Wow good history lesson  Quick.


BTW I have read that a lot of people loaded them with black because it was expensive and hard to get smokeless.  I wasn't there thou.

[Retsof]

When my future son-in-law was dating my daughter, I learned he liked to hunt. So, I invited him to SW MS, where I had been hunting for years. On one afternoon hunt, he decided to use the shooting house, which overlooked about 300 yds of open spaces till the forest edge. While it was still legal to shoot but was quite dark, I heard him shoot. He shot a doe at an estimated 225 yds, using the only rifle he had ever to that point owned- an old Marlin 30-30. He did this with the only ammo he had ever used - plain old Remington core-locts and with an old Tasco scope mounted on this rifle.  The hit was center chest and the deer travelled only about 30 yds.

When I saw what he had done, I felt sort of silly with my modern bolt action rifle and fancy scope, though not silly enough to get rid of either of them. I definitely gained a new respect for the 30-30 after that.

[R.W.Dale]

A remarkably efficient and accurate cartridge.

It may be efficient, but if the 30-30 is "remarkably accurate", then pretty much every other cartridge is remarkably accurate.   

your scarchasm is actually quite correct. Ive preached for years that 98% of your accuracy is about the rifle. My benchrest 7.62x39 then prooved it to my satisfaction

[teddy12b]

  A remarkably efficient and accurate cartridge. A pure pleasure to shoot.  An example of a PERFECT match-up for the task of killing medium game out to 200 yards.  A textbook illustration of "Less is More."    It seems as if only people over 50 understand this.  (Those under 50 have to go through the Magnum Phase before they get it.)   :-)


Regards,

Mannyrock

You got that right.  I'm under 50 and my first "big boy" centerfire rifle was a Remington 700 BDL 300 RUM.  Ouch!!!  My shoulder hurts when I think of that rifle.  Now my favorite hunting rifle is my 92 44mag or a 30-06 for bear hunting.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  While I started with the .32 spl., which I still have, I have used the .30-30 off and on for 40 years. It is a fun gun. In the timber of the east for deer or bear, it is ok. I have used it in the west on deer, antelope, coyotes, and mt. lion, and varmits like rabbits, chucks and p. dogs. It is a fun gun that can preform very well at modest ranges. I really prefer it to the .243 for medium game up to say 150 yards. With the new ammo it will stretch even a bit farther.   When I hunt does, or just want a deer, it is fine. If I don't get one today, there will be another day. However, I am not so foolish to think I would trek into country where I might get a chance at a mulie trophy of a life carrying one of my .30-30's.  While the .30 has taken all kinds of game, it must be remembered this was often done by folks who lived there, and either it was the only weapon at hand, or they had lots of time to hunt so if it didn't happen today it would tommorow. Another thing we must keep in mind when talking about this old round is for years it was the cheapest rifle on the market except military stuff. When I was a kid, they could be bought from $35-50 bucks used. Model 70's went for twice that. So lots were sold to casual hunters who often took out standing game because it was the only gun they had. When I look back at the tales of hunters from early in the 1900's, often the guy who was a serious hunter had a model 95 in one of the popular cabibers, or a remodeled Springfield. They wanted the most effective round to make their hunt successful just as hunters do today. Not everyone can use or has use for a magnum rifle or even a .30-06, but I  for those who can and do have use for them and are able to use them effectively, they are great rounds. At the same time if you are only shooting deer at 50 yards in the timber, a 30-30 is fine. As Sourdough found with new ammo the range is extended, if I were shooting caribou for meat, it could work. All of the caribou I shot could have been taken with the .30-30, but if I were leaving for a caribou hunt tomorrow, which would involve a great deal of expense and travel, the .30-30 would be in the gun safe.

[Coyote Hunter]

It was a long time coming but I finally picked up a used Marlin 336 .30-30 a few years back.  It quickly became a favorite at the range – low recoil, decent accuracy, and cheap to shoot.

My .30-30 is still a virgin in my hands but I have no doubt that 170g Speer FP or Nosler Partition RN will do the job on anything I’m likely to take a poke at.

[crash87]

I purchaced, well actually paid for, my 1st rifle in 1976, a lever action, but not a 30/30. It took me 33 years to finally get a 30/30 into my battery. Now I've got to make up for lost time, I realy had no idea what I was missing. Right now I'm on the tail end of finding a load with cast bullets and I'm having a ball. I've owned a number of levers over the years, still do, but in calibers that were much better than the .30, better my A$$, this thing is sweet. I guess as the old saying goes "what is old is now new again".
                                                                           CRASH87

[SHOOTALL]

If they were not loaded with Black powder then why are there model 93 Marlins with Black powder only or known as model B  on the bbl ? It would seem they came both ways depending on who made them and what the use was .

[jlchucker]

It was a long time coming but I finally picked up a used Marlin 336 .30-30 a few years back.  It quickly became a favorite at the range – low recoil, decent accuracy, and cheap to shoot.

My .30-30 is still a virgin in my hands but I have no doubt that 170g Speer FP or Nosler Partition RN will do the job on anything I’m likely to take a poke at.

So will the 170 Gr Remington Coreloct, I would think.

[Coyote Hunter]

If they were not loaded with Black powder then why are there model 93 Marlins with Black powder only or known as model B  on the bbl ? It would seem they came both ways depending on who made them and what the use was .

Because Marlin wasn't the one that introducd the cartridge - Winchester did that.  With smokeless.

[dukkillr]

I for one had always thought the 30-30 was an old obsolete Black Powder cartridge that should be let die.  Yes I know it has killed more whitetail than all the other cartridges put together.  It's use by the Good Ole Boys down in the south and the eastern states, has been the only factor holding it to life.  Their feeling "It was good enough for Grandad, It's good enough for me" kept it in use. 

I always felt I wanted something more myself.  Over the years I have ended up with a 30-30 three differant times, through trades, or for debts owed.  I always gave them away to friends or relatives since I did not want one.

Now I have to say after the last hunt this week I have to change my mind.  KP and his son went on a Caribou hunt with me and my hunting partner.  KP had his son Kyle shooting a 30-30 with those new leverlution cartridges.  Kyle shot his Caribou at around 150 yards.  Caribou dropped on the spot.  Bullet was found on the off side just under the hide.  KP then took the gun and shot the other one at about the same distance with the same effect.  Bullet was later found in the muscle just under the surface, another half inch and it would have exited the animal. 

When are they going to put those bullets on the market for us reloaders?

So when you're getting set up for that 320 yard shot on the caribou if you could have either that 30-30 or your .338 which one would you rather have...

[1marty]

I hunt in hilly thick brush. My Dad gave me a win 94 30-30 fifty years ago and it is still as deadly and accurate today as back then. I shoot the regular Winchester 150 grain white box. Most shots are around 50 to 75 yards which is adequate for this rifle. The most a deer has run was 50 yards. I think people get too crazed over lever revolution or whatever.

[Dee]

For 51 years I have been shooting the same Model 94 Winchester 3030 (rifle bought new), and the same Remington 150 grain core lock bullets. I started loading this bullet myself in 1971, and load them to 2400fps. Mid-range rifle and cartridge? Indeed! With the Lyman aperture rear sight, and post front sight I put on the rifle years ago, I nail 1 gallon water jugs (milk jugs filled with water) time after time laying them on their side and shooting at their 7" square bottoms at 285 yards.
One just has to make up ones mind. Is he hunting? Or sniping? The two aren't necessarily the same. If they were, then a 300 Win Mag, with a bi pod, and 20x scope, and ranger finder is all one would ever need. Hunting skill would not be needed, just a gun bearer, and equipment toter.
I have never been one to follow a guide around while he "hunted" me something to shoot. But that's just me.

[nomosendero]

Sometimes I bowhunt, sometimes I muzzleload hunt, handgun hunt & hunt with a scoped rifle. I have taken Big Game from less than 5 yds. to way out there. In some terrains I can get close & in some we just can't.
Point is well taken in that most hunting can be close, but actual hunting can be far. But I do understand the response, as the previous post was one to marginalize the round for no reason, as no one said it was a round for all occassions, logically there are alot of applications where a long list of rifles would be better than a 338, hopefully I won't have to list those.
But, if this turns into a "sniping vs hunting" thread, I will shut it down.

But yes, the 30-30 is a neat round. I have a Marlin & though I don't use it much, it is a good woods gun & one the lower side of medium range as well. I have a 1X3 weaver I am thinking about mounting on the rifle.

Thanks

[Casull]

I nail 1 gallon water jugs (milk jugs filled with water) time after time laying them on their side and shooting at their 7" square bottoms at 285 yards.

Dee, I used to nail metallic rams time after time at 220 yards with my .44 S&W M29 (with open sights - eyes were better back then).  That however, did not make it a long range deer gun.

[SHOOTALL]

why not ?

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Shootall,  A couple things with the long rg. shooting of rams with a .44. first the range was known, second, repeat shots at the same range were available, and also if the ram was hit in the leg, it didn't cripple away to die.   I am not being a jerk about this.  I have two .30-30's one a model 94 with peep sights.
A couple years ago, I shot a doe antelope with it. When I finally got into position, with a solid rest, the front bead all but covered the doe's shoulder. I squeezed one off and the doe dropped with a high shouder /spine shot. The range was only 75 yards, and the course sights made shooting more questionable than I prefer Some time later I shot a mt. lion off a ledge with my Marlin .30-30. With a 2 1/2 power scope it was a fairly easy shot about 125 yard, but it would have been better with a 4x. That is what I have on it now. Optics make the Marlin a more sure thing for my shooting. But here ranges can lengthen very fast. That is the big thing with shooting any distance, the .44's and .30's can quickly become leg breakers rather than killers. Old Jack O'Connor often made that comment about the .30-30 when talking about deer hunting in Az. He felt as I do, it was a good killer with in its range, but as ranges lengthen as happens quickly in open country, it quickly becomes a leg breaker or crippler. More quickly than a .270 or '06

[crash87]

So when you're getting set up for that 320 yard shot on the caribou if you could have either that 30-30 or your .338 which one would you rather have...
[/quote]

The shootingt part comes after hunting, If you "choose" a 30/30 get closer!
Without facts and numbers, of which would be somewhat difficult to obtain if not impossible, I am going to venture a guess that more caribou have been shot by substincence hunters, using anything but 338's and the like, than by all sport hunters put together using 338's and the like. And, contrary to what is written the 22 LR is not the cartridge used, yep 30/30. CRASH87

[dukkillr]

The shootingt part comes after hunting, If you "choose" a 30/30 get closer!
Without facts and numbers, of which would be somewhat difficult to obtain if not impossible, I am going to venture a guess that more caribou have been shot by substincence hunters, using anything but 338's and the like, than by all sport hunters put together using 338's and the like. And, contrary to what is written the 22 LR is not the cartridge used, yep 30/30. CRASH87

No, you're missing my point.  Sourdough just returned from a caribou hunt where he made a couple of very good but long shots a caribou.  I was asking for his opinion...

[SHOOTALL]

WCH, good ansewer , I never use the open sights set where i cover anything , use a 6 oclock hold .