Author Topic: Using buckshot loads in .44 revolvers (Read 3307 times)

LoudBoomBoom · « **on:** August 18, 2009, 02:10:37 AM »

I have started development of buckshot loads for the .44 revolver. So far, I have evaluated several brands of brass cases, single 'ought' versus double 'ought' versus triple 'ought', different lead alloys, velocities, terminal ballistics, etc.

I am pleased with the results so far, but, and this is where I need your help... I would love more 'input'...

1 - Are there any threads, forums, etc. already established that discuss this subject (I didn't find them)?

2 - If there are no such established threads or forums, can anyone suggest other sources of info?

3 - Is there any interest out there in these types of loads?

Maybe it's just me, but I can see how a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special loaded with some '00' buckshot rounds (three .32 caliber projectiles per round) might be an interesting option under certain scenarios.

Anyway, I value the collective knowledge and experience of this group, and hope to learn from it.

Thanks

Savage · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2009, 02:41:34 AM »

I guess everyone who's reloaded for any length of time has experimented with multi projectile loads. Don't recall many specifics as it was around 40 yrs ago. What I do remember is, at 5 yds and closer they worked pretty well as far as hits on target. Accuracy went away quickly as range increased. Leading was also a problem.after a few shots. I loaded the round balls in .357 and .45 Colt cases with a thin cardboard wad between the balls over a charge of Unique. Even so, they deformed badly during firing. I hung a blanket on a line between two trees and fired into it to recover the balls without impact damage. Out of the "Judge" buckshot probably fares a little better due to the shot cup in the .410 shells. I also played with two bullets in the same case with a little better results. Be very careful, and weigh all the projectiles and wads so that you'll have the total projectile weight when working up your loads. BE VERY CAREFUL! There are lots of variables here that effect pressures. Good luck!
Savage

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2009, 03:12:21 AM »

Thanks Savage for your reply, here and other thread. Below is a copy of my reply over there.

"My results generally agree with yours... with one significant difference.

Because I use the Speer shot capsules, so far I have no discernible leading or unexpected issues with pellet deformity.

I consider safety to be my load development priority and echo your concerns.

Thanks"

45-70.gov · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:01:48 PM »

years ago i played with the idea
my dad let a 357 shoot all the way through his house
so over penatration was less of a theat with these loads

a lot of my loads involved the shot capsules
both 357 and 44
i don't recall what size shot went where
but some time shot was flattened slightly to get it all in the capsule
and to make a more complete fit

always drop the first pellet
onto a drop of hot wax first placed into the capsule
drop of hot wax between each pellet
or the recoil will blead the capsule sometimes
and tie up you gun

the rear pellet flows into the capsule base
and hit target most times
across a big room is about max range
load will bearly penetrate 5 gallon buchet of water
[safe for dad]

my best load was .433 mussel loader balls
2 of them with 9 grains unique
good in rifle or revolver
insert first ball by hand
rub in bullet lube....plenty
set in second ball seat and crimp like any other slug

with 10 grains of unique big spread ....no good
with 9 grains they stayed a few inces apart for about 50 yards
never tested beyond that

i have factory rem 38 and 357 loaded with OOO......X2
heard they are collectable so i don't shoot them
been meaning to work up a load since i have 25 pounds of OOO

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:24:07 PM »

Hi 45-70

your post seems to expand on a suggestion by another forum member in the reloading forum. Below is a copy of his post and my reply. Would you consider reviewing these and giving me your thoughts? I would appreciate it. Thanks

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Quote from: SHOOTALL (him)
Trade Count: (0)
Senior Member

Re: Loading .44 Mag with buckshot
« Reply #8 on: Today at 08:50:29 AM »

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You might try a buck and ball load . powder , paper card , a couple/few copper plated buck and a light bullet . The buck can be #4 up or #2 birdshot or larger .
The card can be cut by reaming an old case and tapping or pushing it thru. the material you use for a card .
Seems it was a standard load in black powder guns and even in the M-14 and AR's have multi projo loads .

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Quote of my reply: LoudBoomBoom (me)
Trade Count: (0)
Member

Re: Loading .44 Mag with buckshot
« Reply #9 on: Today at 11:10:52 PM »

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Hi ShootAll

If I understand correctly, then...

1 - I would crimp on the bullet portion of the load.

2 - Because the largest buckshot pellet I'm aware of is '000' (nominally, .36"), then this pellet would have about .069" of freebore play to interact with the rifling, basically tumbling its way out.

3 - Because the copper-plating available on buckshot is much thinner than the depth of the rifling groove, then some of that plating will be left behind as it is sheared off by the leading edges of the lands.

4 - Because of #3 above, some of the lead underneath the plating will be exposed to the rifling.

5 - Because of #2 above, even though the paper card may seal in the powder behind the pellet while in an unignited condition, as soon as there is enough gas pressure from the ignited powder, the edges of the card will fold around the contour of the curvature of the pellet, flow past the card, and flow past the loose pellet(s) as a sort of plasma jet, softening the plating, the lead underneath it, possibbly heating it enough to allow sublimation of the lead.

So, if the preeceding is correct (and I don't know enough to be 100% sure that it is), I would achieve inconsistent paterns because of the tumbling of the pellets and their deformation, increased copper and lead fouling, increased erosive wear of the bore, and higher than normal release of lead vapors into the atmosphere.

Of course, since I could be wrong about all this, then, please, tell me a little more, because the idea does seem to have potential... Would a stiffer card/wad help? What about two, or three, short bullets, with the bottom one having a gas check or jacket?

I love this board... the people, you guys, make me think...

Thanks

45-70.gov · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:38:17 PM »

speer makes .433 balls for muzzle loaders
lee makes a .433 mould......i think

your right OOO=36.....just right for .357 or 38

that buck and ball sounds interesting
as few as i would ever use i would go with a gascheck
but don't think enough pellets will be there for a snake
but still might be good snake wild dog rabid coon boogieman load

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2009, 11:10:35 PM »

See?

That's what I'm talking about...

I didn't know about there being .433 ML balls available until you mentioned it in a previous post and now expanded on that by telling me about the Lee molds. Someone else, in another forum, had mentioned ML balls but, lacking details, I glossed over it.

Below is an excerpt from a reply I made to this thread in the reloading forum...

-----------------------------------------

For the sake of brevity I did not really explain much about it - I figured I could go into details with those that would be interested and not bore others.

As you correctly pointed out, the mechanics of holding the three pellets in a .44 case would be rather cumbersome "without some sort of sabot". I am using Speer .44 shot capsules, in fact, the same ones sold commercially, and often referred to as 'rat shot'. Instead of holding a bunch of #9 shot, they hold 3 'single-ought' or 'double-ought' buckshot pellets.

I have worked up the loads for safety, and then optimized for velocity/energy and pattern. Now, these do have a particular optimum performance envelope which, within its limits, may satisfy a variety of needs.

When that envelope is understood, and its limitations are factored in to its intended
terminal ballistics, then it becomes, at least to me, very useful to deploy these rounds.

Now, don't forget these are no longer just an idea or concept... I have already made and tested many of these and what I am now looking for is other shooters' questions, ideas, etc. to help me continue to reshape and refine my own.

--------------------------------------

Thanks

Savage · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2009, 01:28:45 AM »

LBB,
Sounds like you're really into this project! You've gotten some good information from these guys that should be useful in your load development. My fling with this concept was pre-Speer Shot Capsules. The extent of my multi-projectile loading these days are shot loads in the capsules for vermin at near contact ranges. Good luck with your project!
Savage

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2009, 04:57:44 AM »

Yes Sir... (Savage)

Thank YOU

If you think of anything you'd like to share or if someone else's post gets you to remember something, I'd appreciate hearing from you again.

Thank you so much

handi270 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:04:15 PM »

not meaning to hijack your thread, but the title reminded me of something I found in some of my father-ln-law's stuff after he died.

They are Remco 'Shot Caps'.
The ones I have are for 38 Spec/357. Filled with #6 shot, they also came in 9 and 71/2.
Weight is 156 gr. Calls for a load of 4.0 gr of Bullseye for 874 fps.
Encapsulated in plastic with a flat end and concave end.

Anyone have any experience with these?

He died in 74 so they are pretty old, but the plastic is not stiff or cracked.

thanks for any input

noel

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:33:11 PM »

hi handi 270,

Although I realize it's not the same thing, they seem to be precursor to the Speer .38/357 shot capsule currently being sold.

The ready-to-shoot, sold-over-the-counter Speers use #9 shot in a plastic capsule and are sold in 10-packs. I had bought some empty ones from Natchez back in May and the box of 25 (empties for reloading) was under $8. These I intend to also try loading with 3 "double-ought" or "single-ought" pellets like I do for the .44. A preliminary evaluation shows that it may work and, now, it's a matter of making a testing prototype and seeing where it goes from there.

I would not shoot or disassemble yours until you have determined whether they might have collector value. Save whatever original packaging material, original receipts, correspondence, ownership history, etc. you have for these as that may enhance their value further, if any.

By the way, the Speer reloading manual has a section on loading shot capsules and has some specs there you may wish to see for their reference and comparison-making value.

That was an interesting post; I had never heard of these - thank you.

handi270 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2009, 05:24:11 PM »

I did an internet search and found nothing.
They are in the original box and have the original brochure that came with them.

The address was 1404 Whitesboro Street, Utica, N.Y.

That address seems familiar, maybe there is still some firearms related business at the location.

The company was named Remco 'shot caps' Corp. Sounds like this was all they made.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2009, 01:05:01 PM »

don't forget the hot wax shot buffer

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2009, 01:53:06 PM »

Hi handy270

Since I had not heard of these either, and wondered if I might learn more about them for myself, I too did an Internet search using Google. This is what I found:

1 - They were available into the 60's in .45 Colt and .44 Magnum, in addition to the .38/357 you have
2 - They have been a part of many online auctions and estate sales listings, selling for up to nearly $50
3 - These have been mentioned in shooting sports forums, online group chats, and Q&A sites as part of a number of dialogues found online. Below is an excerpt of one such post:

"[...] YEARS ago, were REMCO shot cups. Pretty much like the Speer product in concept, except (1) the shot caps cam pre-filled with shot (2) they were longer and carried more shot (3) were sealed one piece units. Worked fine for me, but in some guns had this tendecnty to very rarely not shatter the shot cap...so once in awhile would launch a tumbling whole shotcap: was interresting when one of those un-opened caps hit a snake.

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Last edited by ribbonstone : 02-07-2006 at 01:52 PM"

IMHO, you may wish to get better acquainted with Internet searching using Boolean operators; it may give you quicker, better, results. In fact, there's even a how-to video on youtube about it - just my two cents worth...

But now, I digress from the original subject... Sorry!

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2009, 02:05:34 PM »

Hi 45-70.gov

Last night I prepared some without any buffer, but I'm gonna' go back and see about doing a small test batch using hot wax as a buffer - it should flow around the shot easily when hot and stabilize it very well when it cools.

Unless you instruct me otherwise, I will use candle wax since it's the only kind I have right now (probably a blend of paraffin, bees wax, and fragrance). I will ask my wife which is she LEAST fond of.

Thanks

PS = These forums ROCK!

handi270 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2009, 02:35:24 PM »

thanks for the info.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2009, 05:01:26 PM »

don't use a fragrence too feminine

you might get run off at the range

bullet lube might work better and not need heating

i just had a few un-buffered ones break

Hook686 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2009, 08:46:48 PM »

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/

under

'INFORMATIVE ARTICLES'

'· Snake Loads .............. Make your own snake loads for a .357 pistol. '

is an interesting approach I think.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:49:46 AM »

Being a "tinkerer" by nature, I have made up and tried out lots of "multi-projectile" loads over the years. I've played around with three ball loads in .357 mag, .44 mag, .45 Colt and 45/70. When all was said and done I just couldn't find any real world application that they served better than single projectiles.

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #19 on:** August 23, 2009, 12:39:30 PM »

To 45-70.gov
- On the fragrance issue... it's bad enough the cell phone I really wanted, Verizon had it only in PURPLE... they had sold out of the other 'decent' colors, like black. Anyway, it could have been worse... it could have been pink... then I know I would have never heard the end of it.
- On the bullet lube issue... Won't it liquefy under the heat of fire and ooze out into the powder?
- On the ones that broke... Was that before chambering, while other cylinders fired, or when? Were they loose and 'rattly'? This may be important to me; please, tell me more.

---------------------------------------------------------------
To Hook686

That artwork was pretty good... I liked it (see it referenced below)

Thanks

---------------------------------------------------------------

To coyotejoe

... and I might very probably end up reaching the same conclusion after everything is said and done.

This is, for me, a discovery process, the exploration of an idea. Unfortunately, those that tread this path before me, like yourself, may not have documented their successes for me to emulate, and their failures for me to avoid. Although I have ideas that go beyond the use of capsules and ML balls, I don't know if they have already been tried, much less with what results.

For example, picture three full caliber short length wadcutters in copper, all three in the one case, all three engaging the rifling, and then all three emerging from the bore sequentially (like the picture from Hook686). Depending on MV and other factors, I can see some interesting laminar airflow characteristics for the flights of the second and third ones. Would these characteristics be useful, and consistent, from round to round? I don't know...

But, before I get there, I have to have established certain baselines; a foundational platform from which I can start to extrapolate and test ballistic parameters. This where you and the other good-willed members of this forum can help, and why I came here.

Collectively, there is a vast amount of knowlege, experience, and expertise here I'd like to tap into. So far, I have received ideas, questions, and even artwork, I appreciate. And 'tinkerers' like us, you and me, DO enjoy, not just arriving at the destination, but the journey as well.

I welcome correction, and love to have my ideas challenged. If an idea or concept is not defensible on the basis of facts and logic by its very proponents, then, how worthy is it? The old adages, "If you can't take the heat...", "The proof is in the...", and "You can't make an omelet without...", all come to bear.

Well, once again, I ran a post that was long-winded... I'll try to be more succinct in the future.

Thanks

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #20 on:** August 23, 2009, 12:47:41 PM »

By the way,

Although targeting a slightly different audience, I have a parallel thread running on "Ammo/Hand Loading Forums > Hand Loading for Rifles and Handguns" right here on GBO.

There have been some interesting things said there too. Check it out.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #21 on:** August 23, 2009, 04:38:07 PM »

Quote from: LoudBoomBoom on August 23, 2009, 12:47:41 PM

By the way,

Although targeting a slightly different audience, I have a parallel thread running on "Ammo/Hand Loading Forums > Hand Loading for Rifles and Handguns" right here on GBO.

There have been some interesting things said there too. Check it out.

post the limk
----------------------------------------
For example, picture three full caliber short length wadcutters in copper, all three in the one case, all three engaging the rifling, and then all three emerging from the bore sequentially (like the picture from Hook686). Depending on MV and other factors, I can see some interesting laminar airflow characteristics for the flights of the second and third ones. Would these characteristics be useful, and consistent, from round to round? I don't know
=================
i once read an article about that
he even bored out the cylincer for 357 max [not for me]
not for the max power but to get 4 short wadcutters
3 wad cutters in the 357 mag before boreing to max

the case walls taper in after you go in so far
reduced over penatration is the only advantage i have seen so far
if you want to ''spray and pray'' just get a high cap 9mm

===============
case lube is in the capsules
and never had a problem so far with cast bullets

=================
bullet pull is what breaks the front of the plastic during recoil

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2009, 05:14:46 PM »

Hi everybody,

Today, I finally got around to chronographing the '00' shot loads in the .44 and the 'hotter' loads came in at about 1150 fps MV (well, actually at about 5 feet from the muzzle). This is in keeping with Speer's recommendation of not exceeding 1200 fps with their capsules (to avoid plastic fouling?... maybe, I don't know). Energy-wise this equates to 150 ft/lbs ME per pellet.

To put this in a different perspective...

Imagine you have a Czech Skorpion SA Vz 61 (.32 ACP smg) set up for three-round bursts; ballistically, this is sort of like that... three projectiles of comparable size, mass, velocity, and energy, delivered in close proximity to each other, within the same fraction-of-a-second timing. And still have the ability to ALSO shoot snake-shot on the low power end, AND full-house hunting loads on the high power end, from the same firearm, without modifications, just by changing rounds.

The next step is to start moving the chronograph further away incrementally and plot the results in a graph. This will help further define the performance envelope.

Anyway, just wanted to do an update.

Thanks

41 mag · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2009, 01:38:18 PM »

This was how I used the double ball loads in my 44.

This uses two Speer # 5110 .350" Lead Round Balls, 4 pieces of this felt for packing, a Speer # 8782 44 Cal. Shot Capsule, and powder charge listed on the product box. Both rounds generally hit within 2-3" at 25yds with enough energy to dispatch small game reliably. Would definitely ruin a bad guy's day.

I tried it several ways with different wads different ways of putting the wads in, like between and on top of the balls but the best was when I simply put them on the back side and then installed the cap. I loaded them so that they set out of the case maybe 3/8" or so. They shot very well and I had a ball with them. Literally.

Good luck with yours, I hope they turn out to your expectations.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #24 on:** August 26, 2009, 02:30:23 PM »

i think i used 3 00 balls
they were too long
so i tapped them with a hammer to slightly flatten them to fit
i am recalling over 20 years ago
i still have some but they are solid yellow can't see in side

buy a box of .433 ball$ from speer....comes in hundred box
these balls weigh 125 grains.....pre-expanded 357 mag....X2
if you like them buy a mold from lee

i think i will use 2 50 caliber [49.5]
double patch and ball in my 500 SnW
thats 170 grain times 2
next time i am in a mood to tinker

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:25:09 PM »

Hi 41mag

Did you use .350 balls because you already had some available from some other use, or did you get precisely that size specifically for this project?

Given that the I.D. of the Speer .44 capsules is about .366, then balls of about .364 would seem to allow for some manufacturing tolerance and still not have much lateral play - a more axially stable load from an internal ballistics perspective. Because of this (and because I had some handy anyway) I looked into using two '000' bucskhot. These are a nominal .36 diameter, two of them having an effective combined payload of about 136 grains, and the excess longitudinal play is then shimmed, as you did with the felt. To put that excess longitudinal play to work, and increase the terminal payload, I chose '00' buckshot - three pellets for one extra wound channel, and an increase of 11-12% combined payload. Anyway, that was my take on that, although 'the jury is not yet in'...

If you don't mind, would you, please, give me your thoughts on different manufacturer's cases and the specifications differences among them, as they relate to seating depth of the capsules and case lengths (for crimping purposes)?

It is refreshing to see how you and others have also given this serious thought and are willing to share it with me; I appreciate it.

Thank you

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #26 on:** August 26, 2009, 04:00:02 PM »

Hi 45-70.gov

I too found that 3 '00' pellets will not allow the cap to go back on properly, but I don't have the fine motor skills to flatten them a little with a hammer and still have any degree of consistency from one to the next, so I had to come up with something else which would give me that consistency I wanted (probably overkill but I'm a little anal when it comes to specs).

Now, tell me more about .433 balls...

- The I.D. of my sized .44 brass is .422, but the fired, unsized, I.D. is right at .433. Are you using those .433 balls in sized or unsized cases? If I could eliminate the re-sizing step in the reloading it would help reduce my labor overhead, but only if whatever variations existing in cylinder I.D's allowed it. Would these un-resized cases still have enough play in all modern .44 cylinders to allow for the case to expand enough under pressure to release the balls, and not get stuck in the cylinder?

And then the rest of your recipe kicks in:

"my best load was .433 mussel loader balls
2 of them with 9 grains unique
good in rifle or revolver
insert first ball by hand
rub in bullet lube....plenty
set in second ball seat and crimp like any other slug"

Any gas check, wad, etc., between the powder and that bottom ball?

Thanks

45-70.gov · « **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2009, 04:24:47 PM »

use a vice pliers c-clamp to flatten

000 is just over 357

the .433 balls are soft no bulging...
chamfer the inide to minimize shaving and bell the mouth to stop it

no checks wadds just some lube between balls

did i mention i patch and ball load 38s
with 00 buck and no powder just a primer pencil for a ran rod
fun quick draw back porch load

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #28 on:** August 26, 2009, 04:27:54 PM »

Hi y'all (I was in Georgia today... the state of Georgia, USA, not that republic in Eurasia)

I had an unscheduled, but most welcome, opportunity to test the loads for pattern today and they looked pretty good...

Testing at up to 40' gave me a nice, even, pattern of about 5 inches, but because it was an unplanned test, I ran out of loaded rounds...

And when the gnats get in your eyes, and up your nose, and you loose track of how many ended up in your mouth, and all you want to do is yell at them, but realize what will happen when other people see a guy with a gun in his hands yelling at the gnats... well, it was time to go. Next time, more rounds on hand and bug spray aplenty.

Chronographing and charting the results at those ranges is still pending.

Stay tuned.

LoudBoomBoom · « **Reply #29 on:** August 26, 2009, 04:49:00 PM »

"[...] load 38s with 00 buck and no powder just a primer pencil for a ran rod
fun quick draw back porch load"

Oooh!... Yes!... set up some balloons... and they probably don't make that much noise...

In fact, I now use the Speer plastic bullets and that was what got me toying with the idea of using short free-bore wood bullets for plinking. I can buy dowel rod and just cut to length... no powder, no environmental toxicity, totally biodegradable, just large magnum primers and that's it. And they should be good out to about 25 feet, don't have to pick up anything, less concerns about backstops... a backyard PPC range.