What do you carry as a caliber?

[rawhidekid]

On Direct TV channel 606 last night, Sheriff Wilson was talking about two to the chest and one to the head.  Col Cooper used to call it the Mozambeke drill.  Anyway Sheriff Wilson said the purpose was to end a fray if other factors were involved.  Two shots center mass, wait see if no responce then one to the head.  In other words if he has body armoure or hi on drugs, the head shot takes out the nervous system to end the fight.  They used to cover it in IDPA also.   For those who do not like double tap, although in IDPA they would not count an apponent out without two hits.   Rawhidekid

[williamlayton]

Real world come into play in these situations and who knows how we will react.
Training and commitment go a long way into resolving the situation---but there is a lot we don't know about how this situation will develope.
Prepare and prepare to react too all situations.
My friend had an incident in his home the other night---turned out to be just a cat---but at 2;30 on the morning and your grandaughter awakens you from a loud noise---well, gun in hand he hearded her into the back bedroom---lights out he investigated---when he opened the door he was jumped by the cat.
It all ended well and no shots fired. He could not see anything at the door-only heard the noise.
Blessings

[Dee]

Yea, I remember when the double tap entered police training. At the same time the 9mm got popular, and for that reason. I started training the double tap in about 1980 and officers carrying the 9mm were in some cases a little disturbed that it was necessary, but I continued to teach it.
Body armor for the bad guy has definitely changed things, and it is a consideration, but I would ask anyone that has actually been in a pistol fight, if a head shot was on his or her agenda, or just gettin a hit was paramount.
The adrenaline valve is turned up to the point that your mind seems to be processing in slow motion. Your ears are stopped up because of this, and your own shots seem to be far away, and you feel no recoil even though your shooting a magnum. And you have tunnel vision, and only see you opponent.
Quite an experience. I wonder if Sheriff Wilson has ever actually experienced that?

[SHOOTALL]

there was a  State Trooper who pulled a drop top car with 4 riders .they pulled  guns , he double tapped the first three , and the fourth shot him as he had a revolver . Now this was related in a class as fact i have no way to know . The point made was let all the bad guys have one then give the extras to those that need um . Another class taught that a shot to the hip area would miss body armour and take a bad guy down .
 Not meaning to pizz off police officers but a lone guy being attacked lacks the ablity to call for back up . He does not have support like LEO's have MOST of the time . That said you must choose your weapon with regard to stopping a threat as anything else is just plain lacking .
A phrase we hear is if i get to my truck you will be sorry . No joke so guess what we ain't letteng that happen . Best to have the fight stopper with you . Best also to have a big enough stopper in the first place . The 357 in a 5 shot J frame size gun is about the most proven weapon aval. that hides easy and carries well in most cases . The Glocks are larger , the small 1911 have buttons , switches and grip safetys , stack bbl derringrs are hard to cock and fire when someome is grabbing you . smaller guns lack the power . With the J frame you draw and fire from touching  in a coat pocket to any yardage you need to defend yourself . Is it the best fight stopper ? nope . Is it the best to hide ? nope what it is -is the best compriomse .

[mcwoodduck]

On Direct TV channel 606 last night, Sheriff Wilson was talking about two to the chest and one to the head.  Col Cooper used to call it the Mozambeke drill.  Anyway Sheriff Wilson said the purpose was to end a fray if other factors were involved.  Two shots center mass, wait see if no responce then one to the head.  In other words if he has body armoure or hi on drugs, the head shot takes out the nervous system to end the fight.  They used to cover it in IDPA also.   For those who do not like double tap, although in IDPA they would not count an apponent out without two hits.   Rawhidekid

"Two shots and wait and see"  On a guy that you thought was enough of a threat to have to shoot.  What did he put in his Coffe that morning.  While I have not been in a gun fight I have pulled one on two guys with bats that did not want me to testify against their friend.  I did not think of double tap, mosambique, or anything else I though who is the bigger threat of the two and if they don't drop the bats when do I shoot.  I was not worried about if one or two of my 9mm rounds were going to do the job.  I had 15 and was going to use ALL 15 till I was safe and they were no longer a threat.  I was happy when they acked off dropped the bats and left.

[rawhidekid]

Don't get me wrong,  shootall.  I wasn't saying two shots at a time in IDPA with multipul purps.  If there were three, for example; you would singley shoot the first two double tap the third, then go back giving the others their second hit.   The idea behind the training was to make you think as you responded to "life like" scenarios.  So that when the real thing happened you had some training to fall back on.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Since this thread is alive and well, I have something to share that just happened on my return from visiting my Dad on the east coast. My girl friend and I stopped in Indianapolis, In. and got a room for the night. I had stayed there different times, and had no difficulties, but it did look like a seedy area.  Anyway it was bitter cold. We got into the room, fed the goldens, and relaxed and she watched a ball game. I read awhile then hit the sack about9:30... Since I was in a strange state, I didn't pack any of my three pistols into the room as I was not sure of the local laws. They were unloaded packed away with my hunting rifles... Anyway, about 12:30 I hear this banging on our door, I look out and see this person standing the the cold. I had the door chained, and just opened it a bit... It turned out to be a woman. She said she was out of gas and had to babies in the car, could I help.... While I was still a bit sleepy, I knew we were in a corner room and there could easily be some crook around the corner...I told her to get lost. I wasn't prepared to help anyone... and closed the door...When I looked out she was gone in a second.  As my head cleared, I realized she had walked past at least a half dozen cars and the office to come to our room..I figure she knew the out of state plates meant we were traveling and would have some $$$....The longer I thought it over, the more convinced I am she was the bait for a robbery or worse... I checked my truck a couple times to see if anyone bothered it but all was quiet the rest of the evening. My girl friend and I talked it over and both decided it was some ort of set up... While my pistols were locked away, in this case my carry caliber was my old field 870 12 ga. with 5 rounds of #4 buckshot... It was loaded and my hand could touch it if a second person would have appeared...That is the one thing with pistols or revolvers, they cannot be legally carried in many places, but a long gun is a different matter. It is the one I keep with in reach in all trips and buckshot in a couple easily accessable spots.

[Dee]

WCH you are exactly right. I have a 357 by the bed at night, and a gas operated 12 laying by the bed that holds 7 rounds of of #4 buck. During the day there another 357 on the kitchen counter separating the living room and kitchen, plus that shotgun is in the corner leading to the hallway.
A good shotgun in a motel room will get you from the room to the car safely if need be.

[mcwoodduck]

No gun by the front door?
I keep a small auto by the front door.
1) a year a go Halloween Thought it would be a great day to do a home invasion.
2) like the smaller size as it will tuck in and not be noticed when I answer the door or if I need to go out side to see what a bang boom or bump was.
I too keep a 357 in the night stand stoked with 125 grain Goldern Sabers and a 120 Lumin flash light,  But a trombone BB gun (pump shotgun) With 7.5's in it and 00 Buck and slugs in the side saddle.
You can not beat the combo of a revolver and 357 mag as a house gun.  Ok maybe a 44 Special  with warm 180 grain loads

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Dee, it is interesting you mention getting from the room to the vehicle safely... Many years ago when my wife was alive, she wanted to visit Graceland... Bad area then...We got a room in the afternoon and had much of the evening to put in before bed... I watch the grounds as people moved in an around the motel... It seemed pretty obvious that hookers, pimps, dope heads and worst were in the area, and moving though the grounds...We had a nice new pickup and topper... The loafers at the pool eyed it as we unloaded, and watched as we put our stuff in the room... I had 2 goldens then also... They raised a few eye brows but I still had an uneasy feeling as I watched the sun going down.  Usually, I take any weapons into the motel in a case or blanket for the pups to sleep on.... But this place worried me... So before the pool cleared and it got dark, I went to the pickup and with drew my little Rem. 870 special field from the back of the seat.  This place I decided called for serious measures.  With the little 21 inch 12 ga. in plain view, I picked up 5 buckshot rounds from the door, and a box of field loads from behind the seat and walked slowly back to the room. All eyes followed me as I went to the door, inside I looked out on the court yard heads were together talking, and a few glances and pointed fingers told me the message was clear. No trouble there... It is amazing what the mere knowledge that I was armed did to that group of "people". A very quiet night followed....

[Dee]

Indeed. Mine is a black parkerized 1100, with rifle sights, and black checkered stocks. It has a mag extension for 6 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. Also 21" barrel and screw in chokes. I have it for "social events" when more than one guest might show up.

[Tonk]

DEE, I got into a bit of an argument at the guncounter yesterday while picking up my Savage in a 17 rimfire. It seems as though many of the younger generation don't believe the shotgun is an effective weapon anymore and I was told that many police departments are starting to phase the shotgun and buckshot out of their programs. Now I don't know if this is true but I was reminded that this is the 2009 and things have changed a bunch since 1985 or prior. Ummmmmmmmmmm I said, I guess I best get me one of those AR-15 type rifles for the house then. There suggestion mind you!

So how do you and others feel about the shotgun verses the cut down version of the the blackrifle etc. I still keep a Mossberg model 590 pumpgun (holds 8 rounds) with ghost ring sights, by the bedside loaded with #6's & #4's, with 6 rounds of 000-Buckshot on the side of the stock. A Glock 29 on my hip while in the house and a another Glock 45acp in the end table in the living room.

[Dee]

mcwoodduck, I don't keep a shotgun or any other gun by any outside door. One momentary laqse of not locking it just gave an intruder more fire power than he likey brought himself. That's just me. I put them in reach on my way to a door.

Tonk, most likely you won't meet many gun store employees that have ever used a shotgun OR a "black rifle" for that matter on anything meaner than empty beer cans. They read a lot of gun rag writers, that haven't either, but they claim to know how to fight.
Back in my younger days when I didn't know any better, and was skinner and more agile I noticed that the best bull riders in the arena NEVER GOT OFF THE FENCE.
In a room to room encounter I will take my 1100 and an ammo belt full of of # 4 buck ANY DAY over a "black rifle". One hit from the shotgun at room distances is most always a fight stopper. One hit almost anywhere on the body. At room distances it usually either makes enormous holes, and OR removes body parts. Have seen it many times personally. Just never had to do it myself with one. Came close but not quite. Pistols are another story on my experience.
Oh, and by the way, I have a "black one".

[mechanic]

Back some years ago I got into an argument with a neighbor over "assault rifles".  I told him the whole ban thing was foolish, as the shotgun was a much more deadly weapon at close range.  At the shooting range, I gave him my AR with a 30 round mag.  I took a pump shotgun with #2 and at 15 feet we both began together and unloaded.  He had to quit when I did.  He still had half a magazine, and only hit the target twice.  I had almost no target left.

I want's me one of those full auto recoil reduced shotguns the military has with the 100 round drum.............

[williamlayton]

Shotguns are good home protection---in any flavor or caliber you desire.
A little breakdown 410 is pretty lethal.
As a matter of fact I have been thinking about getting a 410 pump--had one years ago.
Blessings

[Mikey]

"In a room to room encounter I will take my 1100 and an ammo belt full of of # 4 buck ANY DAY over a "black rifle".". 

Dee:  you and me both.  However, in favor of the 1100 I've been looking at the Saiga 12 guage mag fed semi-auto in 12 guage for me and 410 guage for the wife.  I think the 410 would be a hoot and I would love to see how the 12 ga shoots and recoils.  At least with extra mags you wouldn't have to worry about reloads.......................

Ever try your 1100 on full auto?  Now that's a blast, if you can control it............

[SHOOTALL]

The shotgun may work to well if anything . What other weapon can you launch over 20 - 24 cal. projectiles with the pull of a trigger ? I have read that some urban police departments are going to carbines to limit destruction and lessen concern of hitting innocent people . What they are doing is using a weapon that is less destructive to be PC .
Not being one to ruin a good debate with facts i won't mention that the last %'s on people dieing from gun shot was something like over 90% of rifle shootings die ( not military ) , over 85% of handgun wounded live and with shotguns it depends on distance from the gun but it is close to rifle %'s  .

[Dee]

"In a room to room encounter I will take my 1100 and an ammo belt full of of # 4 buck ANY DAY over a "black rifle".". 

Dee:  you and me both.  However, in favor of the 1100 I've been looking at the Saiga 12 guage mag fed semi-auto in 12 guage for me and 410 guage for the wife.  I think the 410 would be a hoot and I would love to see how the 12 ga shoots and recoils.  At least with extra mags you wouldn't have to worry about reloads.......................

Ever try your 1100 on full auto?  Now that's a blast, if you can control it............

No full auto for me. I trained a couple of day once back in the 80s with the full auto Mini 14s,and the MP5s. It was fun, but wasteful for target hits and over'spray.
Iis that Saiga 12 you speak of a blow back or a gas operated shotgun. I like the gas, because it is more likely to feed and cycle light loads where the blowback unless having weak springs sometimes won't.

[mcwoodduck]

"In a room to room encounter I will take my 1100 and an ammo belt full of of # 4 buck ANY DAY over a "black rifle".". 

Dee:  you and me both.  However, in favor of the 1100 I've been looking at the Saiga 12 guage mag fed semi-auto in 12 guage for me and 410 guage for the wife.  I think the 410 would be a hoot and I would love to see how the 12 ga shoots and recoils.  At least with extra mags you wouldn't have to worry about reloads.......................

Ever try your 1100 on full auto?  Now that's a blast, if you can control it............

My friend has one of the Siaga guns.  Good gun.  He has a 25 round drum for it.  Much like my AK it is awkward to get the larger drums in under stress.
But unlike the AK you need to have the Bolt back to load it.  It would be easier to load if you have three hands.
With how much time it takes to load it, Full Auto would be a waste of time.  Fun!  But not practical and adding the Jam factor to a defense situation.
When I first got my Garand it had been screwed with to go full auto.  Full auto 8 rounds was over too quickly.  I think the same would be true of an 1100.
I went to an 870 from my 1897 Win to slow down for three modified three gun.

[drdougrx]

Any opinions about 20ga???  Here's my dilemma.  Of all the gun types, I'm into shotgunning least.  I currently have an ithaca m37 deerslayer deluxe...very fancy!  It has a 20" barrel, rifle sites and no diconnector, so, hold the trigger and pump till empty.  BUT...it doesn't fit me (too long), AND, I don't shoot it well..kicks the crap outta me (and I wouldn't be considered recoil shy).  All my other shotguns are field guns w 30" barrels, Win M12, Ruger Red Label and Binelli Super Blackeagle.  

I have the opportunity to buy a Win 1200 defender pump in 20ga that I'm delaying because I'd rather have an auto.  20" barrel w rifle sites...what do you think?

Or...how about a suggestion for a dedicated defense shotgun that doesn't really look like a combat shotgun .

[Tonk]

Drdoughrx.......Somehow I think you already know the answer!

However, for those who are wondering a bit, I will say first of all get the shotgun that fits you for starters with a short barrel like that defender. I like the pump, (the military taught me years ago) 12 ga. using #6 for the first 2 and next 2 are #4's after that it is 000-Buck loaded in my Mossberg 590 pump with ghostring sights for fast target sighting. The barrel on that 590 model  is 18.5 inches cyl bore.

[mcwoodduck]

Doug,
What about a 2nd barrel for the Benelli Super Black Eagle?  Giving it double or even tripple duty.
If I remember they have a deer hunting barrel, but I may be confussing it with the M2-
Also a used 1100 or S&W 1000, Browning A-5 / Rem M11, or other may show up needing some TLC in a used rack.
I often wondered if I painted a shotgun the same color as the interior house walls if I could just leave it behind the door and no one would notice it.
What about getting the M37 stock to fit you?

[Dee]

"In a room to room encounter I will take my 1100 and an ammo belt full of of # 4 buck ANY DAY over a "black rifle".". 

Dee:  you and me both.  However, in favor of the 1100 I've been looking at the Saiga 12 guage mag fed semi-auto in 12 guage for me and 410 guage for the wife.  I think the 410 would be a hoot and I would love to see how the 12 ga shoots and recoils.  At least with extra mags you wouldn't have to worry about reloads.......................

Ever try your 1100 on full auto?  Now that's a blast, if you can control it............

My friend has one of the Siaga guns.  Good gun.  He has a 25 round drum for it.  Much like my AK it is awkward to get the larger drums in under stress.
But unlike the AK you need to have the Bolt back to load it.  It would be easier to load if you have three hands.
With how much time it takes to load it, Full Auto would be a waste of time.  Fun!  But not practical and adding the Jam factor to a defense situation.
When I first got my Garand it had been screwed with to go full auto.  Full auto 8 rounds was over too quickly.  I think the same would be true of an 1100.
I went to an 870 from my 1897 Win to slow down for three modified three gun.

Hey mcwoodduck! You really got an old 97 hammer trench gun?

[mcwoodduck]

Not a Trench but a Riot model from the NY state Police from what I can gather,  Made in 1912.  In great shape.  All original.
It is a solid frame (not take down) with factory sling studs and early Winchester quick release sling swivels with the 22" barrel.
Bought it in a Jewlery store in Reb Bank NJ for $382 OTD in 1991.
It has shot deer, quail, chuckar, tree rats and even a woodcock with 000 buck.  Luckiest round I ever fired.  Cought the bird in the head with one pellet.  Has not gone dove hunting as I can not plug it to limit it to 3.  My buddy and I have used it a few times to win flurry shoots.
I like the little BB gun.  I also like how it stumps guys who say "I know everything about guns"  I hand them that in 1/2 cock and watch them go nuts trying to open the action.  As well as the pull forward to relase the action. When you are shooting the recoil takes care of the pull forward.  JMB was Brilliant.
I have played with it a lot and shot many 00 buck and other loads.  At 30 yards to 75 It will toss one pellet strait to point of aim with one about 4" away and will land around the clock but usually 4" away.  I have no Idea where the other 7 pellets go.

[Dee]

When I was a rookie there were still some of those around. They were refered to as "trench brooms". I loved the hammer, and wish I had bought one when I had the chance. Great old shotguns.

[drdougrx]

Y'know Mc...that's a good point in trying to find shoret barrel for the Binelli.  I was also just...as I typr this...looking at Mossberg 930s...though a used something or other would be fine as well.

[teamnelson]

Dr. Doug, I've got a Norinco version of your Ithaca that you used to be able find for $150 new. Its my HD gun, all black, ghost rings, heat shield ... looks like a single purpose weapon. I can see how it might be a little unwieldy for some, but I'm a bigger guy and it suits me. And if its locked up for evidence for a few months, I won't feel too bad.

I pondered an 11-87 in 20ga for the family, but have found the Rossi '92s in .357 fit my smaller framed wife and daughter just great. Hold enough for a small skirmish, recoil is marginal, and they're fast pointers. They're also fun at the range so if they had to pick it up in crisis they have enough trigger time on 'em it should make it simpler. A cast bullet over a stout .38 load through a 20" barrel fired by someone with confidence across the room ... my limited experience has informed me that bad guys sense the difference between a target and someone not to mess with, and the key factor is confidence.

[mcwoodduck]

Dr. Doug,
For home protection you are not looking for pretty.  Just mechanicly sound.
If you see a rusted or ugly 1100 Hack down the barrel.  Add turkey sights if it has a rib, $20 worth of steel wool and spray paint to seal out the rust, clean the guts, replacing any doubious parts and TA Da.
At this point you can add mag extentions extended / tactical or what ever else you want ot think you need to add like a flash light or a flash light foreend.
I like to go simple.  and more stuff just tends to get in the way, make the gun heavier.  I did add  a pistol grip collapsible stock to make it easier to hold the gun and open or close doors.  The other thing was an over sized safety to my 870 for 2 reasons.
1- mine had one of the J locking safeties.  And as we all know mr Murphy shows up at most unwanted times so a locking safety HAD to go.
2- it is so big that if it is on and I apply any trigger pressure it comes off.- again Anti Mr Murphy.
Just remember that if you cut a barrel down it will shoot high.  The shorter the higher.  Adding sights helps.  I found the clamp on rifle type turkey sights that are fiber optic help.  A little anerobic adheasive (super Glue) and they will be there when you need them.  And as a home gun it does not have to be pretty just functional.  Again I really am thinking of painting one to match the walls of the house so I can just leave it behind the bedroom door.  

[Dee]

mcwoodduck is right. It don't have to be pretty. My 1100 is a sharp look shotgun, but it wasn't cheap. A good 1100 that looks bad, will shoot just as good. Click to enlarge and note the fiber optic front sight. I think I already mentioned it has screw in chokes.
This ain't a cheap setup, but it doesn't have to be expensive to start.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Dee and Mc, can these extension magazines be had for the 870's??? I would assume so... Difficult to put on??? My ability with fixing ANYTHING is nill......