Author Topic: Dead on at 400 yds. (Read 982 times)

kix · « **on:** August 22, 2009, 04:38:41 PM »

I wasn't quite sure where to ask this but I'll try here.For an up-coming elk hunt I need my 8 mag.to be sighted in pretty close to that range.Last year on horse-back we crossed a big clearing (and by doing so jumped a big 6x6) and this year I plan to hunt there,especially after my cousin took in another hunter during cow season and saw 6 bulls in a little over a day.Anyway,for full coverage of this clearing it will require at Least a 300 yd.shot going out to about 400. The problem is my range only has a 100 yd. target.I suppose 3"high at 100 will put me on about 250-260 but I need more and there is too much time,effort and money for guesses.The load is a 175gr.Sierra at 3000fps (by a manual) so maybe this helps. Thanks for the input,maybe with your help I can finally kill one of those darn elk! Kix

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:48:27 PM »

Sadly there ain't no way to pull off what you want. Computer programs are mere approximations and that ain't close enough out there in the real world. It sounds to me like you might be wanting to do what is well beyond your skill and experience level. Bad idea in my opinion. Folks who have to ask such questions seldom ever are up to the task they are setting for themselves.

What if you do sight it in dead on at 400 yards what are ya gonna do when it shows up 175 yards away instead? Got a clue where to aim? Far better to sight in for max point blank range for your round for at most an 8" target and learn by actually shooting where your bullets really impact at other ranges. Also get a scope with a reticle with cross hatches for various distance or mil dots and learn to use them. If ya don't do the shooting at those ranges then you're just guessing and tossing out a hail mary shot that most likely will miss or wound.

Actually if that's an 8MM Rem Mag 3" high at 100 is more likely to have you on closer to 300 than to 250. But that too is a guess and only shooting will tell you.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:57:33 PM »

kix, If I were you I would not try to sight in for 400. If you get a closer shot it will be too easy to over shoot. With the 3" high sight in for your 8 mag., you should be about to hold on top of the elk's back and still make a hit in the chest.
I never used and 8 mag. on elk or anthing else. I usually shoot a .300 but with a 3" high point of aim for 100 with the loads I used, I could hold at the top of the back and kill an elk at 400. I have done it several times. According to Serria the 175 grain 8mm at 3000 fps with a 3 " high sightin at 100 should drop about 13 inches at 400. Atop of the back hold will kill your elk, and you will be able to easily take a shot closer and with a bit of pratice even farther.

ballistic table and check the drop figures.

400 yard is a long way, but a good magnum if you have it sighted right will handle that with a minium of hold over.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2009, 05:10:59 PM »

Ya forgot to tell him about the wind. Ya know it ALWAYS blows in elk country don't it?

john keyes · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2009, 06:44:11 PM »

if thats what you really want then you need to actually shoot at that range. zero at one distance and then see where it is at 400. might be good, might be humbling.

jcn59 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2009, 08:01:51 PM »

You own the 8mm Mag and I don't, but bear with me here. Your cartridge is capable of putting out some real horsepower, and 3000 fps at 175 grains ain't near what it will do. Heck, my .300 WSM will do that with under 70 grains of powder.

If I wanted to shoot an elk in the next county with a cartridge like yours I would be using at least a 220 grain bonded type bullet at around 2800+ FPS, sighted at 2-3 inches high at 100 yards, and limit my shots to 300 yards max.

I personally CRINGE at the thought of a 300 yard shot under hunting conditions, and I shoot hundreds of rounds a year. A gut-shot towel head in the Iraq war might be acceptable, but a gut shot elk in the USA is NOT!

Of course, you may be a much better shot than I, but then you wouldn't have asked, either. Not trying to be a smart-a**, but It would be a shame if you spent your entire hunt looking for a sick animal. Four hundred yard shots at game are for writing stories about, not doing.

RaySendero · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2009, 11:52:27 PM »

kix,

You need to find a range where you can shoot the distance(s)!

Ya just can't rely on computer trajectory progams to do what your wanting! I use'em with a mil-dot scope, but always verify the bullet drop by shooting the max distance and several distances in between! Then note the zero and dot count for the different distances on a piece of masking tape on the scope.

PS: My son's 308 w/ 165 SPs is the only rifle/ammo combination that shoots to exactly the computer trajectory calculations to 500 yds I've seen!

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2009, 12:42:48 AM »

Windage a 100 yards and windage at 400 yards are a LOT different. If the wind is blowing at 20 mph it is going to shove your bullet quite a bit at 400 yards. The further out you get the more difficult it is to judge the distance and the windage. You are going to get some where around 22" of wind drift with your bullet. Plenty enough to go from a killing shot to a gut shot or a clean miss if you do not dope the wind properly. Top that off with thinking about bullet drop, hold over or what ever and it starts getting complicated. That is if you have time to think of all of this. The only thing you can do is spend time at the range for this distance under varying conditions and learn what it takes. You will find it just isn't that easy. Oh and by the way are you going to take these shots with sticks? Better practice that too. There is nothing like trigger time to fix what ails 'ya; other wise you are just guessing.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2009, 01:22:04 AM »

I do own and shoot an 8mag. Heres my take on it. First get rid of the 175s ive seen them fail miserably on even deer sized game. there to explosive unless the range is real long. My all time favorite bullet in the 8 mag is the nos 200 part. A little heavier bullet has better sectional density and will actually fly flatter out past 300 yards then a light one going faster. Sierra also makes a real good bullet for the 8 mag. Nothing wrong with 220s but i like the compromise of a good areodynamic 200 with a bit more speed the a 220 will alow. Loaded with a 200 partition and a case full of 7828 theres not a game animal on the planet id be afraid to tackle with my 8mag. To me its allways been the best middle of the pack mag out there. Its as flat shooting as the 300 mag and hits like the 338.

Lone Star · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2009, 05:42:47 AM »

I second Lloyd's comments. Had the OP actually read the Sierra Manual section on the 8mm Remington Magnum he'd have seen that Sierra does not recommend the 175-grain bullet for this cartridge. It was designed for 500-600 fps slower velocities from the older smaller 8mm cases. While it may work okay at the lower impact velocities seen at 400 yards - what if an elk shows up at 150 yards?

While a 'premium' bullet is certainly fine, non-premiums designed for the 8mm Mag's velocity will work too. The Speer 200-grain HotCore bullet would be my choice of non-premiums. It can be loaded close to 3000 fps and has the tough construction and high BC to work well at short and long ranges.

I won't comment on the advisability of taking 400 yard shots without practice at that range...

.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2009, 06:38:50 AM »

Kix

From looking at the ballistics tables in my older Hornady 4th Ed .

175g RN @ 220g SP @
3000 fps 2900 fps

Muzzle = -1.5" -1.5"
50 y = +2.3" ----
100 y = +5.0" +6.8"
150 y = +6.4" ----
200 y = +6.2" +10.4"
250 y = +4.2" ----
300 y = 0.0" +8.4"
400 y = 0.0"

This should give you some idea as to were you need to start your sight in BUT these are old numbers and too many things have changed since it was printed , so find you a place to shoot that will give you REAL WORLD info ! not just a WAG that could ruin a trip .

stimpy

BBF · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2009, 08:03:49 AM »

Just to add to the problem" What is the altitude you are going to sight in the rifle vs where are you hunting?
" " " temperature at the time you sight in and what can you expect during the hunt?

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2009, 11:14:35 AM »

Yep BBF, it gets kinda confusin' when you start stretching the distance

I would bet the farm that there are many more elk missed or wounded at 400 yards than are killed for all the above reasons - unless the hunter knows his rifle and load well. There is no reason that Elk can not be taken cleanly at 400 yards with a 8mm Rem Mag, if the hunter is using the right bullet and can place it in the kill zone with certainty. The only way to know that is spend lots of trigger time at the expected distances you are going to make a shot.

BBF · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2009, 11:38:50 AM »

I did have a quick look at some ballistic tables and in theory it is possible to get a 12 inch drop at 400 yards from a 300 yard zero if you are willing to be almost 4 " high at 100. This is calculating the 200 gr Nosler PT with at least 3000fps MV

Berger doesn't make a 8mm bullet at this time.

jcn59 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2009, 11:44:02 AM »

MOST OF US HUNTERS GET ALOT CLOSER THAN 400 YDS. BEFORE WE SHOOT.

wild willy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2009, 02:31:13 PM »

If you are going to shoot at game at 400yds then you should be shooting at targets at 400yds from field positions lots of times

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:29:11 PM »

According to my iPhone ballistics app the 180grn Nosler ballistic tip factory load @3210fps zeroed at 400yds will BARELY fall outside the 8" kill zone which is impressive to say the least.

100yds + 5.8"
200yds + 9.1"
300yds + 7.5"
400yds = 0

But I agree with the other posters not to take a shot you're not practiced for.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:47:56 PM »

Quote from: wild willy on August 23, 2009, 02:31:13 PM

If you are going to shoot at game at 400yds then you should be shooting at targets at 400yds from field positions lots of times

This is very good advice. Take 100 rounds to the range. Shoot at 100-200-300-400 yards. If there is enough wind to fly a kite, you will miss at 400 yards with out compensating.

Cheese

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2009, 05:28:47 PM »

The 180 Nosler BT is NOT a proper elk bullet for the 8 Mag.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #19 on:** August 23, 2009, 05:55:00 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on August 23, 2009, 05:28:47 PM

The 180 Nosler BT is NOT a proper elk bullet for the 8 Mag.

at the impact of 2100fps for 400yds it would be. Much inside that I agree not even close.

huntducks · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2009, 07:54:37 AM »

I know this is not what you want to hear from everyone but there dead on.... and i'm sure your going to take the shot anyway, you for sure have the wrong bullet a 200gr Nosler Partition is what you want.

If you only have 100 yards site in at 2" high make out a drop table and tape it to the off side of your cheek peice so you can read and see it. a range finder is a must.

Having shot a number of elk I have to say 400 yard shots are due able and you might get lucky throwing lead but is that what you want a crippled bull, some years back I hit one hi lung and only one lung that SOB ran for over 3/4 mi I got real lucky one of our hunting party finished him as he bedded in some dead falls he quit losing blood about 1/4mi out I would have never found him.

So if your not practicing out to 400 do yourself and the elk a favor and get closer or pass.

kix · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2009, 05:45:24 PM »

Hello all.I started this thread just to bounce around a few ideas and really knowing what is best for me.Kinda like asking your friends "What do I do when your mind is already made up."But I thought it would reinforce what I already know and that's a good thing for me and anyone else reading this as far as wind drift at long range,etc.when they contemplate shooting at an animal at long range.I've only wounded one animal (40 yrs.ago,a spike buck) and the sight of it limping off on three legs is something I do not want to repeat.I notice that no one has answered my question of "Would you shoot?",probably fearing wrath (and I don't blame you) on this thread.So I will answer my own question.400 yds.is a long way,no doubt and I don't have access to that yardage. Is there a chance I can get closer? Hopefully and I will most certainly try.The one "sharp stick" of wisdom is for me to to switch to a premium bullet and that is most appreciated because I'm going to.So,would I shoot? I don't think so and it wouldn't be the first animal I've let walk because I didn't feel comfortable.And HuntDucks You were sure I was going to take a "Hail Mary" shot even though you don't know me and I certainly don't know you.But your advice on the Nosler is well founded and true. Thanks. Kix

Mikey · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:40:33 AM »

Kix - I have taken long shots beforeave not lost a animal yet but the advice given is excellent.

If you feel you are good enough to take a 400 yd shot then here is what I would do: (1) not use the 175 gn slug but go immediately to the 195-200 gn slug. It gives the best trajectory in the 8s. (2) practice at long shots - your scope will help: determine the impact distance between your crosshairs and the top of the heavier (bottom) post - it might be 12" apart at 100yds, or something in that order - this gives you a frame of reference for longer shots and allows you to use a easily visible part of your scope sighting picture without having to use holdover. (3) do the same with your windage crosshairs and posts and practice shooting on windy days (helps keep them skeeters at away...) to see how your slugs drift.

Trajectory is one thing you can count on remaining fairly constant. Windage and drift are the bugger as they change often and rapidly, but a crosswind that pushes your slug at the 220 yd distance may not continue much beyond that as a constant force and you may not be able to count on a constant crosswind to consistently push your bullet so that you can accurately adjust for windage - example: a 10 knot crosswind on a 200 yd range that impacts your bullet at the 150 yd mark, for a total distance of 30 yds, will not have the same effect as a 10 knot crosswind over the entire distance of 200 yds. About the only thing you can do is try and read the effect of the wind on the vegetation nearest the critter - if you have a breeze at about 100 yds but nothing if the animal is near the woodline you should not have to adjust much to keep your shot in place.

This is going to take practice and I would recommend practicing on the worst of windy, rainy days, taking field shots (not bench shots) at difficult to see small targets. If you can hit a 2" target from a stable field position on a windy rainy day you should be ok at longer distances. You can use small ballons (2-4") for targets - you can anchor them so they only blow around one spot or you can let them trail something like a string so they move across the ground at wind speed which would give you about the same effect as a large animal moving away. Hope this helps.

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2009, 06:30:25 AM »

Quote from: wild willy on August 23, 2009, 02:31:13 PM

If you are going to shoot at game at 400yds then you should be shooting at targets at 400yds from field positions lots of times

I agree. There is no substitution for practical practice

huntducks · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2009, 07:26:06 AM »

Kix

If you have hunted the west (were I live) everyone is faced with long shots and most likely it's every trip out to some degree, to some 200 yards might be long to others it might be 400.

I said what I said hoping you would think about it before you fully got caught in the moment of the hunt and knowing you have not practiced over 100 truely makes a 400 yard shot tuff, so if I got you thinking that's all I tried to do and not offend you.

Good luck on your hunt hope you get a nice bull.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 25, 2009, 01:30:33 PM »

Practice, pracitce, practice; and buy a good rangefinder. "Estimating" and knowing ranges are two very different things when you've spent hard earned money on big trips. It only takes a second to range and note landmarks each time you take a stand.

Lon371 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 29, 2009, 02:27:08 AM »

I dont have the opertunity to own or shoot an 8 or 400 yards. But then again, I thought you were talking about hunting, not just trying to kill an animal. 400 yard shots or 300 would make ME regroup and try to get closer. Let us know how it works out for you. Good luck.

Lonny

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** August 29, 2009, 09:02:54 AM »

In some country long shots are more common than most folks believe. For those skilled, it is far easier than shooting a running animal at close range. Also for me more exciting and sporting than plugging a deer at 35 yards from a tree stand.