"Cleanliness" is next to Godliness

[Land_Owner]

There are published comparative powder "burn rates".  Are there equivalent comparative "clean burning" powder list(s) as well?  And comparative list(s) for "smokeless" too?

I switched from Unique, a relatively incomplete burning (dirty) and smokeless powder, to each of Hodgen Clay and 700X for their reported "cleaner burning" attributes.  I find when the unexpected smoke cloud clears from the 700X that there is nearly a complete burn of the small pistol charge, but a not-entirely-unexpected dirty residue.

I have not reloaded the Clay as yet.  That comparison will have to wait another day, or two or four...

[Graybeard]

I concern myself only with what shoots accurately and don't worry about the cleaning chores. I clean them when I have to and not until then. If it stops functioning or accuracy drops off it's time to clean. Until then it's time to shoot. I've never actually been able to tell any difference in the round count between required cleaning for any of them. Clean and dirty burning powders are in my opinion a figment of some over active imagination.

[Blackhawk44]

Maybe I should be a bit more fastidious, but after we got past black powder and corrosive primers, I just flat quit worrying about it.   

[LaOtto222]

I shoot what works - Unique included and I worry not. I only clean when needed (they don't shoot). If I long term store, I will get out the powder residue and most of the copper, oil it and store. I do this with "clean" powders or dirty powders.

[BBF]

when I find unburned sticksof powder  in the barrel I am either running way to low pressure or I change to a different powder.

[gypsyman]

I like to clean my guns. To me, it's just part of the shooting process. I don't think there is a set in stone way of doing it. I don't think that there is a miracle solvent out there, they will all work, my opinion is, let them soak in the barrel, depending on the strength, from 10 minute's, to overnight. The idea of a CLP, is way over done. If your in the military, and have only so much room/weight for a field hump, agreed. If your shooting and cleaning at home, use a product for what it's made for. I personally don't think you can combine a cleaner/lubricant/protectant in one mixture, and have it do all 3, effectively.
As far as powder in the barrel, I don't think it affects accuracy to a degree that the normal shooter can tell. Lead or copper fowling is a different matter. I was at a match where one of the best revolver shooters in the state, was half way thru the match, and all of a sudden, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
That was in a shooting match, I don't want to find out at 2am in the morning, somebody breaking in, that one of my guns decides to jam because I didn't clean it. gypsyman

[Land_Owner]

Obviously I put all of you off with the title to this thread.  It is definately NOT about cleaning your pistols and rifles.

What I asked was: Is there a list of powders in order of clean burning - cleanest to dirtiest?

I also asked:  Is there a list of powders in order of smokeyness - no smoke to smokey?

"No" is a perfectly acceptable answer...if that is the case.

[LaOtto222]

I am not aware of any knid of chart that tells how dirty a powder is. This also applies to smokiness. It would be interesting, but I do not think it would change which powders I used. I could be wrong here, but I would imagine that there is no such creature, because someone would mix it up and think it was a burn rate chart and blow up thier gun.

[Land_Owner]

Come On Man!  That tired argument.  Again?  Stupid is as stupid does.  If the reloader(s) to whom you refer doesn't read - then it is their own fate...and I would not suspect that a "Dirt Chart" or "Smoke Chart" would cause anyone to change their powder.  But it would give pause before going into one direction or another in the first place or to someone looking for a 2nd choice. 

[Graybeard]

Bottom line then NO.

Most smoky is black powder, next in line most BP substitutes. Least smoky all smokeless powders hence the name SMOKELESS. In reality most smoke comes from the lube on cast or swaged lead bullets. I pretty much never see smoke from shooting jacketed bullets.

Clean burning? That's a myth in my opinion as I think I might have already mentioned. Besides it's of no consequence. Any granules left in barrel are blown out ahead of the bullet so what difference does it make? All powders leave some carbon deposits behind and all jacketed bullets leave some jacket material behind. It is deposited kinda in layers. Unless you're shooting really fast rifle ammo and a LOT Of it who cares. Clean the barrel when accuracy drops off and until then shoot the dang think and enjoy. You're taking all this way too seriously it's supposed to be fun.

[LaOtto222]

Don't shoot the messenger, all I know for sure is there is no such chart (s).

I am speculating on why there may not be a chart of your desire. It may be that no one ever thought of it. It maybe because no one wanted to put the time in to do all the testing. It would more than likely have to be an independent lab, because no powder company would want to publish that their powder is dirtier or smokier than another brand. So it would take considerable amount of time and money to put it together with what to gain for them?...But it COULD be; if there was a chart of that kind and some fool got mixed up and hurt them selves or were killed; they or their family would certainly think about a lawsuit. Sounds strange, but...Coffee has been sold in Styrofoam cups for years, more than likely millions of them- no problem until... a lady that put a hot cup of coffee between her legs and got burnt. She sued and won a large amount of money because she was not warned about the coffee being hot - well DUH! She more than likely had bought dozens if not hundreds of cups before, so she would know that a cup of coffee is hot. Who's fault was it? She walked away with the money.

[Land_Owner]

Very well.  No charts.  And no messenger killing.   

GB has caused a new wrinkle in my brain.  I did not know that with smokeless powder the gunsmoke is caused by the lube of cast bullets.  That would explain some things. 

I used cast bullets with (I believe) home made lube.  I am checking on the lube.

Do you have any recommended manufacutred cast bullets (along with their lube) in 357 caliber?

[Graybeard]

Nope I don't cuz I make my own mostly rather than shooting commercially cast. But get ALL the lube off the base of the bullet and you'll take away most of the smoke but why the heck ya worrying about smoke? It ain't hurting a thing unless you're trying to hide your position from enemy fire.

[Land_Owner]

The only previous time I had experienced smoke was with black powder. 

Now, with smokeless powder (700X), I am getting a LOT of smoke from handloads through both the 357 Handi-Rifle and the 357 Ruger SP101 revolver.  So much smoke that it made me believe there "should be" a "Smoke Chart" or something.  It surprised me that I was getting smoke from smokeless powder and I did not know that it was being caused by the lube. 

I did not make the bullets or lube them myself.  I just loaded them the way they came.  So I have 100 rounds to shoot that will smoke.  After that I will know to clean the lube off of the bases.   

The smoke is not a problem - at all.  Its presence though and my not knowing it source got me into this thread...Lesson Learned.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Bottom line then NO.

Most smoky is black powder, next in line most BP substitutes. Least smoky all smokeless powders hence the name SMOKELESS. In reality most smoke comes from the lube on cast or swaged lead bullets. I pretty much never see smoke from shooting jacketed bullets.

This pretty much sums it up.

I also find that I have more leading and smoking with bevel based designs, than flat based. I believe that too many commercial bullets are cast with a bevel base for ease of loading, and cast way too hard. That doesn't let them obturate properly and seal the throats/bore. Those two factors combined allow enough gas to get up alongside the bullet and burn the lube, causing even more smoke.

[SHOOTALL]

LO , when i shot Imhsa years ago i used military surplus H332 because it was cheap , mesured well and shot good . I still use several different powders because i have really good loads for them . BUT nowdays if i get someting new to load for i Always find a Winchester powder if one is aval. as they always seem cleaner burning . The cleaner the burn the less cleaning the case requires , not a bad thing really . This applies to rifle , handgun and shotgun . With a good clean powder i may go several firings before cleaning on pratice ammo. Crud on a shell , case , action or bbl means wear if not taken care of so why promote wear if you don't have to . If this were not an issue why are powders comming out with claims of a clean burn ?
As to your ? not sure of one list for all but some manf's list their powders that are clean . Then you can just go with Win as i do when possible .

[LaOtto222]

I thought W748 was considered a "dirty" powder. I have only used it a little bit, but not enough to notice if it was dirtier than any other powder. I ended up using BL C2 instead of the W748 because it shot better for me, not because of it being cleaner. It meters just as well as W748 too. I do shoot a lot of W296 and it seems to leave little powder residue. I have never decided on a powder because of how dirty or clean it was, the bottom line was how it shoots.

[BBF]

Ditto my expierence with W-748 it leaves more crud but if it shoots good, I'll use it.  I have used BLC2 as well and like it.

[beerbelly]

When I clean my .303 Enfield the first shot out of the barrel will be 4 inches high every time. After that it shoots 1 1/2 inch groups. So now I just clean the bore when I am going to not shoot it for a while.
                               Beerbelly

[Dave in WV]

In my experience there are cleaner powders than others but if you're shooting lead bullets there will be more crud in your firearm (not leading) than with jacketed bullets. Alliant did change some of their powders to be "cleaner" in the past few years. IMHO Hodgedon's Clays and Universal Clays powders got Alliant to clean up Unique and Bullseye.

[stimpylu32]

There are a bunch of factors that come into play as to how well a powder will burn and how much crud will be involved , for handgun rounds the biggest thing is crimp , an improperly crimped case or no crimp at all will change the pressure curve to were the powder does not get a chance to do a complete or proper burn before it starts down the barrel .

Another factor is the bullet size itself , an under sized bullet , either cast or jacketed will allow gasses to pass by the bullet , once this has happened you have changed the burn characteristics of the powder charge as well as changing the pressure curve of the charge .

Primers also come into play , a weak or improper ( wrong one ) primer can effect just how clean and complete a powder will burn , based on the type , style and load density of the powder being used , IE; using a standard primer to light a heavy load of slow burning or ball type powder .

I'm starting to ramble here but you can see that its not just a case of this powder is dirty and this one is clean -- there's more to it . 

stimpy 

[45-70.gov]

if  you shot  those  180 grain slugs i gave  you  that smoke  is  blue lube from LBT

i  like the way it  looks  on  my stainless  guns
like flames  on a hot  rod.......makes  my  629  look  like  jerry michelik's  gun

it  is  great  lube....just  smokes   but  then they  all  do

maybe  that  little sooty deposit  is  what stopps  the next round from  leading