Author Topic: Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?  (Read 586 times)

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Offline RangerJoe

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Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?
« on: August 27, 2009, 09:24:33 AM »
Here's a compelling argument against ANY gun control that I have never heard before from anyone who could make something important out of it. I have thought about this for years, and I am amazed that I have never seen the NRA or any lawmaker - or anyone else for that matter - pose this argument:

Contrary to what most people probably think, you will not find "you are innocent until proven guilty" anywhere in the US Constitution. Or the Declaration of Independence. Or anything that the Founding Fathers wrote. The good news here is that you won't find it because no one thought it was necessary, probably - it had been an underlying principle of English Common Law for hundreds of years. "Innocent until proven guilty" enters US Law by way of the Supreme Court, and has become a long standing precedent of US Law. So much so that 9 out 10 Americans _probably_ think it's in the Bill of Rights somewhere.

So if this is the case, if I am innocent until proven guilty according to HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of years of legal precedent, how you pass a law that ASSUMES by it's very nature that I am going to do something bad? Everyone loves to say "No one needs to have an assault rifle." No one needs to have a TV, or a car, a lawnmower, or a blender either. So why do people get so upset about assault rifles? Because they assume you're going to do something bad with it, that's why. If you want an assault rifle, it must be because you want to gun down a schoolbus full of kids, or shoot up a gym class, right? What other purpose could it serve?

Maybe I am the only one who thinks this way, but when I think about ANY firearms regulation - and I live in NJ, so I have a lot to think about - it seems to me that the primary motivation behind all regulation of firearms is "prevention of crime". Agreed? If we can stipulate that, then you can take this a step further and say that all gun control assumes you - as an individual who wants to purchase ANY kind of firearm that is regulated - are a criminal-in-waiting who must be monitored and tracked so that when you DO commit a crime, they'll be able to bag you for it. Example - In NJ, if you buy pistol ammunition, you must fill out a form that states how much you bought and when, and what caliber. You also must present your state Firearms ID in order to buy it. Can you think of ANY PURPOSE for this, other than to be able to trace that ammunition to you once you commit this inevitable crime you so obviously must have waiting in your mental wings?

I am your typical "Law Abiding Citizen". I was a good student, VP of my school's Nat'l Honor Society chapter (yes, I was a nerd). Never been in trouble with the law. Never was addicted to anything; hell, I never even smoked tobacco. I am not in any way mentally troubled, although I am frequently referred to (jokingly) by friends as the "gun nut". (And this won't do anything to put an end to that, I'll bet.)

So ask yourself this question: Why should I be restricted from doing ANYTHING in this world that causes no strife or harm to anyone else? Why CAN'T I own an AK-47 and 30 round magazines? I have NEVER proven myself to be harmful, or dangerous, or ANYTHING to any other human being on this planet, ever. Any restriction or regulation that impinges on MY RIGHT to own firearms in any way FLIES DIRECTLY IN THE FACE OF HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" precedent in both English Common Law and US Supreme Court decisions. The Assumption of Innocence, in my mind, puts a "FAIL" to any gun legislation that takes firearms out of the hands of any citizen without a criminal or mental health record.

This being said, let's not assume I am a total nut job. I respect my right to bear arms but also acknowledge that in modern society we must have some restrictions. I agree totally with denying convicted felons gun ownership. Ditto people with documented serious mental health issues. I have no problem with instant criminal background checks, as long as no one uses these checks to track my firearms purchases. I don't even mind waiting periods - if you can't wait 3 days to buy a gun, you need to plan better, friend-o. (You made it this far - the UN isn't going to kick down your door in the next three days.) That being said, I believe that if you still have an unfettered right to gun ownership, then it should be truly UNFETTERED. Period.

I submit this rambling to your analysis. Have at it.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 09:39:54 AM »
I beg to differ. I could be wrong of course but my understanding of English common or uncommon is that you are guilty if charged and must prove you are not rather the way it is here innocent until proven guilty but then that only applies these days to certain groups and not to most of us. If you're a WASP you are guilty period these days.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline RangerJoe

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Re: Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 10:03:30 AM »
Well, I think we can probably agree that English law was no doubt severely trampled by numerous kings... when you have a ruler who answers to no one but himself, it's not likely that the pure principles of your legal system will stay unmolested (look how much trouble we have here, and these guys are supposed to answer to us...). I am no legal scholar, and I wouldn't presume to correct you on how the current English legal system works, because you may well be right. But a quick search of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" on Wikipedia tells me that presumption of innocence comes from England by way of ancient Greece and even the Book of Deuteronomy.

I am not a religious person so I am not trying to go all biblical on you, and I also acknowledge that quoting sources at someone is kinda snotty, so I apologize. Just trying to reinforce my argument.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 10:11:35 AM »
Could be I admit I'm thinking more of today than what might have been way back then. I'm pretty dang sure no such exists there now.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline rwng

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Re: Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 04:00:37 AM »
I believe that that is a good argument. When I get into the "no one needs an assault weapon" debate, I bring this up. One can not "legally" drive faster than 70mph on American roads yet anyone can buy a Corvette or Viper etc. that is very impractical and will break the 200mph speed barrier. People have no problem with this fact but have a huge problem with the "evil" assault weapon. The mind boggles.  ???
"Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace" J. M.

Offline Gary G

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Re: Why doesn't anyone make this argument about gun control?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 05:26:36 AM »
The state and the people are by nature in opposition to one another. The guvernment has no power except that which is granted by a free people. Every power they coerce from the people is less liberty for the people, therefore, even if I do not want an assault weapon, I defend your right to have one, without stipulation, except that you be a "self responsible" citizen. (Same with free speech, health care, or any other issue.) :)
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat