Vicky must have a story, but she ain't talkin'

[cannonmn]

Sorry won't be near gun for a day or two, but here's another bore drawing from the same book, this time of a 64 pdr.  with 6.3 inch bore.  This looks to have been done by a different draughtsman because the same kinds of lines are clearly shown as radiuses. 

Based on that, I'd have to assume the number shown for the 16 pr., namely 1.35 (blurred supercscript) is in fact 1.35 inches, and that is a radius.  Do you agree?



or

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums43/IMG_9854.jpg

[GGaskill]

Based on that, I'd have to assume the number shown for the 16 pr., namely 1.35 (blurred supercscript) is in fact 1.35 inches, and that is a radius.  Do you agree?

From its positon on the drawing, that is what I would think.  But its value (1.35") is absurd if the bore is 3.6".  Two times 1.35" is 2.7" which makes no sense.  The diameter probably should be 3.7" which would make the radius 1.85".  I suppose that could be the actual value since a 3 and an 8 might be misread.  The drawing below shows the rifling as .11" deep so that added to 3.6 would be 3.71"; half of that would be 1.855" which is close to 1.85" although not exact.

[Alangaq]

Well if it was me… and it aint, I would do the following:

Scrub, clean, and lube heck out the bore.  Pound an oil soaked rag about 6 inches down the barrel.  Spoon about 1 inch of grease in on top of the rag.  Get a bunch of buddies, crane, hoist or whatever you need to stand that barrel up vertically.   

Now you got yourself a perfect mould…..  Suspend a chunk of 1/8” cable down the bore and pour it full of whatever you got.  Lead (forgo the grease) or composite material would probably work great.  If I was going to do composite, I would insert a steel or lead core and surround it with a mulched fiberglass epoxy mixture.

[Alangaq]

Hmmmm, now that I am pondering this…. I am thinking about a ½ caliber diameter wooden plug with a long bolt screwed down thru the center of it.  Pack a bit of grease, wax or whatever down around it and pour in a few inches of lead.  Hook a slide hammer to the section of the bolt sticking out of the nose of your new “projectile” and pop it out of the barrel.  Now you have a custom fit sabot round that only needs to have the end of the bolt cut off and the nose profiled down. 
Of course if the thing has gain twist rifling, then all bets are off, but if cast out of pure lead, and kept rather short, it could probably be pounded down the bore just fine….

[RocklockI]

hot lead on top of an oil soaked rags ?  really ?

you also use silicon rubber instead ? couldnt you ?

wouldnt oily rags just blow up in your face ? doesnt sound right to me , but i'd love to hear how it works ....

morrbid curriosity if nothing else .

jmho

gary

[cannonmn]

Yeah, to make sure I can get the cast-lead plug out, insert a light BP charge first, with embedded electric squib and long wires....then get a 30-foot-long pouring ladle handle...

seriously now folks,

Casting a projo in place might make sense, but I'd have to be sure it would come out without undue effort.

A new thought crept into my noggin.  Since we're only shooting at 100 yards, I'm not sure the spinnin' is going to even be necessary.  What I ought to do is take a few right-circular cylinders of whatever material I can make them out of where the total weight is adequate, load one in front of an appropriate powder charge and some efficient wadding to plug the rifled area from leaking out too much gas, and fire it.  You never know. 

I've heard that some smoothbore cannon shooters get better accuracy up to 200 yds, using cylinders as opposed to round shot.  Can anyone confirm that?

[RocklockI]

When I first tried to make one of those projectiles, I was using aluminum rod, cut to appropriate length, for the stud.  It was easy to turn a chamfer on the outside end, to make it fit the groove much better than a squared-off end would do.  I think I'd stay with aluminum since it is at least as strong as zinc in this application, and a lot easier to work with.  The idea of casting a zinc projo is also a good one, I think it would work better for me than trying to turn a steel one. 

but I just doThe lazy b_____d in me keeps saying "hey just go and find some pvc pipe that's about 3.6 inch OD, drill holes, insert long knurled aluminum studs, fill pipe with with concrete" n't think I want to listen to that little voice now.  That sounds like a half-a__ projectile if ever there was one.

that little voice musta made some sense !  good luck however you do it .

blame it on vicky ,,,,, what can i do ...'she changed her mind .'  

a cylinder thru a smoothbore ?

i dont know if the mont. shoot video showed it but mts big mortar launched a perfectly stablile 5 gal concrete jug .

it didnt go too far , but i think everyone saw it . it just launched out of the tube and glided thru the air in an arc ,nosed over like a kamikazie and dove straight down in the earth . 

wonderful sight to see . if you really love cannons and OKA 11's

they had no cannons ! .....thats a fact .

[GGaskill]

I've heard that some smoothbore cannon shooters get better accuracy up to 200 yds, using cylinders as opposed to round shot.

I can neither confirn nor deny this statement, but I have yet to see a cement filled beer can come forth from my mortar that wasn't tumbling end over end.  And the barrel is longer than is normal for a mortar.

[cannonmn]

Lotsa good ideas so far.  I still want to do a spinnin' projectile as a slightly longer-term project, but I do intend to test-fire a few shots with plain cylinders just to get started; I'm sure we'll make a video of that.

Meanwhile I'm gonna pull out that book again and find the original range table for Vicky, to see what kinda powder expenditure we're looking at.

[Victor3]

I've heard that some smoothbore cannon shooters get better accuracy up to 200 yds, using cylinders as opposed to round shot.

I can neither confirn nor deny this statement, but I have yet to see a cement filled beer can come forth from my mortar that wasn't tumbling end over end.  And the barrel is longer than is normal for a mortar.

 All of my highly scientific experiments shooting cylindrically cut potatos, batteries and cans out of air cannons (smooth bore) showed that they tumble.

 Same with rifles having a bad bore or undersized bullets where they didn't engage the rifling. They generally "key-hole" the target.

 Never seen nor heard of an un-spun cylinder beating out a sphere in the accuracy dept. Ain't natural as far as ball-istics go.

 A piece of steel round stock close to bore diameter x ~1 cal long would probably be more accurate than anything commonly available if you're going without spin.

[cannonmn]

A piece of steel round stock close to bore diameter x ~1 cal long would probably be more accurate than anything commonly available if you're going without spin.

Sounds like a good thing to try; I still have to look at that PVC table again, can't get it outta my head.

Well here's the range table, 3 lbs., ugh!  Can't afford that!  I'd really be much happier, and so would my wallet, if I could find a load that would punch paper at 100 yds using no more than 1 lb. of powder, so a projectlile weighing about 10 lbs. or less would come in handy.  When I find the calculator I'll see how long a 3.56-inch diameter steel cylinder would be, which weighs 10 lbs.



Here's the direct link in case the eye chart above is giving you a headache:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums43/Rangetable16pdr001.jpg

[dan610324]

the same length as the diameter is very very close to that weight

[cannonmn]

the same length as the diameter is very very close to that weight

Thanks Dan, so when GG recommended a chunky wadcutter as long as it was wide he musta known what he was talkin' about, huh?

BMG metals in Manassas has 3.5 inch, 1018 cold-rolled round stock for $33. a foot for new-cut stuff, or less if you can find a drop piece that will work.  I'm thinking I could apply a couple layers of aluminum air-conditioning tape and bring the diameter up to get proper windage.  We've used that stuff successfully on projectiles before when we've had to add a bit to the diameter.

[Double D]

3 lbs?  That's a service load.

Use the N-SSA load reference. 2 ozs Cannon Grade, per inch of bore Maximum.  3.5 x 2 = 7 ozs.  MAXIMUM load.  Add Switliks guidance to start ridiculously low.  Start with 3.5 ozs, then go up 1/2 and oz at a time until you get to 7 oz. Stop there.

[dan610324]

yeah either that or he used common sense
in a smothbore or a rifled gun with no engage between projo and rifling a ball is the best

same length as bore diameter is the closest you can come from bar material without turning it to a ball

[RocklockI]

i thought for for a long time that an aluminum 16 oz beer can fill it 3/4 full of cememnt .

so the 1/4 empty part goes in first . when it fires the whole butt end of the can collapses to seal / grab rifling ....out she goes . 

 

[Alangaq]

A “cast in place” projectile will work, and work well, provided the rifling is not gain twist…

I am sorry that I wasn’t more specific in my first two posts…  the oil soaked rag would be for pouring a composite projo.  Not for the molten lead.   Regarding the lead projo, the thickness of the barrel compared to the modest volume of lead is going to act like a huge heat sink and cool the casting down very rapidly.  This will obviously result in a rather wrinkled looking, albeit functional projectile.  Also, remember that there will be considerable shrinkage of the lead as it cools, and if you cast it with a bolt or cable running up thru the center, you can simply pop it out with a slide hammer after it solidifies.  What you would end up with is a custom fit sabot projectile with a built in steel penetrator…. Now that is kinda cool!  If you had your wood blocks and bolts ready with a bunch of molten lead, I would suspect that you could cast a good number of these up in an hour or two.  Once removed from the barrel, the rounds could be countered to a more aerodynamic shape if desired, or trimmed and weighed for consistency.

The composite projo would require some sort of mould release agent in the bore and the oil soaked rage to prevent epoxy from getting down the barrel.  The finished product would probably be best used as a mockup or visual aid for designing or fabricating a metallic projo…..

[GGaskill]

When I find the calculator I'll see how long a 3.56-inch diameter steel cylinder would be, which weighs 10 lbs.

A 7" long 3.55" cylinder will weigh 16 1/4 lbs by calculation.  So a 10 lb'er would be about 4 3/8" long.

[cannonmn]

So a 10 lb'er would be about 4 3/8" long.
 

GG
 

Tx GG. 

I just noticed there's both a sked 40 and sked 80 PVC pipe that's 3.5 in. O.D.  Wonder what a 9" section of sked 40 filled with concrete would weigh-probably not much.

[KABAR2]

Cannonmn,

I done has an Idea!       I do!       Will unveil tomorrow! 


For your sake I resisted adding smiles......

[Victor3]

 Another cheap option I just thunk of...

 Take a steel tube/pipe of appropriate diameter x ~6" long and:

 1. Use a hacksaw, abrasive wheel, etc. to cut 6 slots ~2" deep at the rear of the tube, parallel to the length.

 2. Grab the 3 tabs formed by the saw cuts with vise grips and bend them outward to fit the groove diameter of the bore.

 3. Fill the front 3" with lead (using a 1/2" cross-pin through the tube to retain it).

 4. Tightly pack the rear 3" with foil (to force the tabs into the grooves upon firing).

 This will produce a gyroscopically & drag-stabilized projectile that I guarantee will produce minute-of-55 gal drum accuracy.

 I think....

[cannonmn]

Just ran across this photo by accident-these are "Paulson projectiles" (named for current maker) which I fired from one of our Afghan steel 7-pounders (3 inch bore.)  The zinc bodies were made for a slightly smaller dia. bore (2.9" Parrott vs. 3" 7-pounder) so we used the 'ole aluminum AC tape to beef up diameter near front of projectile.  This was a few years ago and unfortunately I can't recall how accurate (or not) they were, but the gun survived in any case.  When we got them from the maker we were advised to remove the brass skirt and anneal it, which we did, so it would soften and take grooves better.  Looks like the skirt on one on right was ripped off on impact with the dirt.  I don't know what if anything one can learn from these photos, just puttin' 'em here.  I also recall doing a little of what the CW artillerymen did with the similar Parrott projos, they put them in the muzzle, backwards just so the skirt was over the rifling, then used hammers to pre-deform the skirt into the grooves.  They did not trust the skirt to take to the grooves on its own.

The rifling on the 7-pounders is identical to that of the 16-pounder, I think the groove dimensions are identical even though the gun bore is larger on the 16-pdr.



http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/myartillery/AfghanguntestEmlv2003.jpg

[GGaskill]

Well here's the range table, 3 lbs., ugh!

I understand your desire to not burn $45 worth of powder per shot but if you look at the drawing (the section of the barrel through the groove (sort of)), the base of the projectile can't get closer to the breech than about 9"; the rifling doesn't go far enough in.  Even if you left off the base studs, it would probably be at least 5".  So you will need some kind of filler between the shot and a substandard charge to fill up the airspace.

[KABAR2]

Well here's the range table, 3 lbs., ugh!

I understand your desire to not burn $45 worth of powder per shot but if you look at the section of the barrel through the groove (sort of), the base of the projectile can't get closer to the breech than about 9"; the rifling doesn't go far enough in.  Even if you left off the base studs, it would probably be at least 5".  So you will need some kind of filler between the shot and a substandard charge to fill up the airspace.

Turn the base of the projo. down to fill part of the powder chamber that would take up the extra space, thought I would have time to mock up my idea a lunch today

wasn't finished will get it done tomorrow, and photograph it.


Allen <><

[cannonmn]

So you will need some kind of filler between the shot and a substandard charge to fill up the airspace.

Thanks, yes good observation. 

Isn't that why styrofoam was created?

[GGaskill]

Isn't that why styrofoam was created?

Doesn't that make a mess worse than black powder fouling???

[cannonmn]

Doesn't that make a mess worse than black powder fouling???

I've put small amounts of it in the chamber to accommodate various situations and not noticed a problem; this would be more, we'll just have to try it and see.  Whatever it does, if it prevents bad pressure spikes due to voids, some mess would be tolerable.  I expect the vast majority of it will vaporize. 

We've also put hard foam rubber, very light, the kind used in 2 x 3" or larger bars used as padding in computer shipments, behind some rounds.  That stuff gets singed pretty well but comes out of the muzzle largely intact, with no residue noticed in the gun. 

[JASmith]

Check the book To Rule the Waves: How the British Navy Shaped the Modern World, by Arthur Herman.

The book tracks the British Royal Navy from about 1568 through to the Falklands.  A very interesting read and there are some interesting discussions on the development of cannon.

J. A. Smith
http://shootersnotes.com

[Cat Whisperer]

JASmith --

WELCOME to the board!

We'd love to know what you like to shoot!

[cannonmn]

Here's a critical review of the book mentioned:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JIW/is_3_58/ai_n14923612/