Author Topic: S&W J frame? (Read 4359 times)

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #30 on:** October 31, 2009, 11:23:18 AM »

The 200 grain bullets out of 38S&W is the British Army load.
They called it the man stopper. But it was a lead round at slow speeds.
I guess it could be loaded into the 38 Spl. to the same effect.
I just think there are better 125 grain JHP loads out there for carry.
and a lot cheaper 130 grain either FMJ, washed lead, or lead bullets for plinking.

Swampman · « **Reply #31 on:** October 31, 2009, 04:03:29 PM »

I use 125 grain +P JHP.

jlchucker · « **Reply #32 on:** November 01, 2009, 02:00:40 AM »

I use a model 60, 3 inch barrel version. I pretty much only use handloads for everything. I've fired 357 mag loads in it, but my use-it-for-everything is a 38 special loaded with a 158 Gr semiwadcutter over 3.8 grains of titegroup like it says on the can.

cbourbeau32 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 05, 2009, 04:08:32 PM »

Model 36 because I got it used for a good price but now that I've carried it for a year every day I'm not sure I wouldn't choose it over the airweight. I don't even notice I have mine in my IWB holster.

poppie · « **Reply #34 on:** November 07, 2009, 10:27:09 AM »

Get rid of the HARD stock factory grip's and get a set of Hogue's,i have them on my 642 and LOVE them, http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/softrubber.html

Mikey · « **Reply #35 on:** November 08, 2009, 02:25:32 AM »

Yep! The 200 gn load is my preference. 200 grain semiwadcutters over 3.8 gns of Winchester 231 for a whoppin' max velocity of 770'/sec from a 4-6" bbl revolver and somewhere around 700'/sec from a snubbie. Head on down this forum for a topic about heavy loads or heavy bullets in the 38 and 32 by Louisiannaman and you will see the results of his tests on the 200 gn 38 loads.

There are some incredible 200 gn cast slugs out there. There are those of Keith swc style with a sharp shoulder and plain base; LBT designs with large metplats, and someone out there has designed 200 and 250 gn (I believe) wadcutter slugs for the 38/357 that I would like to try for both accuracy and penetration.

I use the same bullet in the 38 as in the 357 - 200 gn swc. From the 38 spl, the Winchester load of 3.8 of 231 shot through 6 water filled one gallon skim milk containers, wounding all mortally and causing great leakage from said containers. They leaked out quickly from one fatal wound through the skim milk label on each with straight through penetration from the label through and through. None of this stopping halfway through stuff for those heavies. No floppin' around like Milton Berle mortally wounded and no long winded diatribes from any of the shot through milk containers.

Deth to skim milk I say, deth indeed...................... Fat free half and half is next.

Where's my Buttermilk................

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** November 09, 2009, 07:20:45 AM »

The British load was not loaded in a 38 S&W Speical case , It was in a 38 S&W case .

Anduril · « **Reply #37 on:** November 09, 2009, 12:45:18 PM »

Wasn't there at one time a 200 grain round nose 38 S&W Special loading called the "Super Police" or some such?
..

Mikey · « **Reply #38 on:** November 09, 2009, 01:51:38 PM »

Anduril: Yep, something like that. Winchester had a 200 gn rn lead load but it went out of favor when ammo companies started loading the higher speed hollow points and they stopped making it. I would love to find a case, or even a couple of boxes of that old stuff. I can remember shooting those loads from a 2" Model 10 at targets 100 yds away, during the winter with a light dusting of snow on the ground, and being able to see the bullet travel downrange. Talk about the ability to adjust your fire - lololol, but man would they hit with a wallop.

lrs · « **Reply #39 on:** December 20, 2009, 06:31:18 AM »

Does anyone know what molds are available for a 200gr bullet?

Dee · « **Reply #40 on:** December 20, 2009, 07:39:00 AM »

I have Hogues on my 686, but eventually will probably put something else on it. On my J frame I have Ivory polymer, and a Tyler T Grip. It reduces the size overall of the pistol, and the slick finish doesn't rub against the skin, but still plenty to hold on to, and control the revolver.
When I practice, I use the same load I have used for 33 years. A light loaded 38 special. I learned long ago, that what ever you train is what you will do, and the hot loads I carry for defense will not be noticed when the chips are down. .
I almost never shoot hot loads in practice, so there is no discomfort with the smaller harder grip.
This is my taste in revolvers, perhaps not yours.

sportsman223 · « **Reply #41 on:** December 20, 2009, 08:09:32 AM »

442 everyday all day

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #42 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:12:43 AM »

Got to ask about the 200 gr 38 S&W ya'll mention - Its a poor round even by their account that was pushed thru. by a few ( seems the whiz kids had a model to follow) with little regard to real world preformance . Seems Winchester loaded it in 38 spl. casers for testing by the Britts but it saw little use here as it had a bullet that tended to tumble due to poor design and only saw some very limited use by a very few PD's . It never saw action in WW2 as the German comand said they would shoot any officer carring it as it was a lead bullet that could not be used in battle . At this point the bullet was changed to an even worst bullet of 17o some grains and poor construction . I have seen this written in several magazines Handloader being the last . So whats the draw ?

Mikey · « **Reply #43 on:** December 21, 2009, 06:32:55 AM »

Well, it was used by the Brits until the Germans complained about it at the Hague Convention and following that, some time later, the ammo was changed to a weaker loading. The combat effectiveness of the 38-200 was well spoken to buy those who used it, Col. Charles Askins being one. Upon his return to the US following the war and his tenure with the Border Patrol (I think), his two favorite calibers were the 45 acp with ball ammo and either the 38-200 or the 38 Spl with 200 gn loads. As to the bullet tumbling - who knows why, but 200 gn round nose 38 slugs shoot very accurately from my revolvers and others I have tested but may well tumble in soft tissue; the 200 gn swc slugs do no tumble, they penetrate on through.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #44 on:** December 21, 2009, 06:53:59 AM »

The bullet tumbled because of faulty design the sides were parallel and did not stablize well is convential wisdom of the day .As for your bullet it may not be of same design as the one in the 30's . Those who used it in combat said both the 38 cal. and the S&W 200 gr load was not effective . However those that pushed it thru. but did not depend on it still liked it . The Germans complained mid 1930's .
I see it as a useless round as many in its day did . That said it is only my opinion . But one has to wonder if it was such a great round why was it not elevated to cult status by police departments in this country instead of being discontinued ? IE; people buy what works and it stays in production . Same as always there are sides that don't agree . I can live with that .
What speed are you getting out of your load ? the listed load for the 38-200 was in the 600 -650 fps i think

lrs · « **Reply #45 on:** December 21, 2009, 07:36:19 AM »

Maybe the .38 - 200 was a poor round, I don't know.
What I really had in mind, was using it in a .357 mag, as a RIFLE round.
I asked about the mold here, b/c the 200gr bullet had been mentioned in this thread.

Noreaster · « **Reply #46 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:50:49 AM »

My 442 was carried more than anything else I've owned. I like the matt bluing for concealment. I don't like the boot grips it comes with. I actually prefer the old wooden grips on the model 36.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #47 on:** December 22, 2009, 03:37:41 AM »

I shot a 200 gr Sil bullet in both 357 mag. and 357 max. and they shot well in a 14 inch bbl. The old 200 gn bullet from the 38-200 it was said to have a poor shape . Choose a better shape shape if you try .

Noreaster , I feel the same but have been using the Secret service grip for 8 years or more . Eagle makes them.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #48 on:** December 30, 2009, 04:31:01 PM »

Quote from: lrs on December 20, 2009, 06:31:18 AM

Does anyone know what molds are available for a 200gr bullet?

veral at LBT will make any size you want

and his WFN is a great nose design

that is all i cast any more is WFN [mine is 180 in this caliber]

Mikey · « **Reply #49 on:** December 31, 2009, 01:15:07 AM »

""I see it as a useless round as many in its day did." Many who? Even the NYCPD said it was a good manstopper but didn't work well on auto bodies. The 200 gn rn 38 spl was said to have been effective on criminals but not very accurate - I have to wonder at that considering how many times nyc cops usually have to shoot at unarmed men in order to hit them.

"But one has to wonder if it was such a great round why was it not elevated to cult status by police departments in this country instead of being discontinued?" Winchester had a 200 gn rn lead load but it went out of favor when ammo companies started loading the higher speed hollow points and they stopped making it. Remember the ammo made for air marshals?? I seriously doubt any ammo maker would now, today, intentionally make ammo for police agencies and personal defense use that was hyped at being able to penetrate two human bodies at 25 yds. It is more of the: "expands to twice it's original caliber within two inches of bad guy and does not pose a threat to innocent bystanders unless the cops miss their target".

People can choose to carry what they want in their personal defense guns. I consider armed and dangerous criminals, literally any criminal, to be as dangerous as dangerous game and the bullet I want to put into dangerous game penetrates clean on through while busting or penetrating major bone structure and causing it to fail, and penetrating viscera, tissue and major organs and causing immediate terminal damage. I prefer bullets that cause leaks from two holes, one in and one out. I feel much better knowing one of my bullets has sent splinters of bone throughout the chest and has exited through the spine than worrying about whether a assailant still has enough life left in him to pick up his gun and try and use it again because my high speed hollow point has skidded off his ribs and just whizzed him off or has failed to reach vital areas.

LouisianaMan · « **Reply #50 on:** December 31, 2009, 08:11:13 PM »

Well, I'm equipping my wife & daughters with sets of S&W 32-1's and 33/33-1's, which are 2" and 4" barreled 5-shot J-frames chambered for .38 S&W. Correct, I said S&W, not S&W Special. (Of course, Dad here is getting a set, too, ahem, just to sorta share in the fun. Somebody find me one more good 33-1, OK?)

Anyway, I have water-filled milk jugs by the bazillion waiting for me to load up some 200g LRNs (358430) and eventually some LSWC Keith-style bullets (from a group buy mold I expect to get sometime this spring) and see how they do. If I can get about 630-650 fps from the 4" and about 600 from the snubbies, I suspect the SWC will get thru about 4-5 jugs and the LRNs thru 3 or 4. I'll also try some 158g LSWC's at low & mid 700s. Time will tell, and I'll write up a report.

I admitted in my other thread & will again in this one--I've never shot anything with this load other than paper & milk jugs, so I don't claim to be an expert. What I do know is that the 200g LSWC-K bullet drilled an arrow-straight line of holes thru 6 jugs and buried itself up to the shoulder in a piece of 2x12 backstop, knocking down the board & then falling out onto the ground. The 200g LRN started veering by about the 3rd jug until it missed the 6th & last jug altogether, and flew off to parts unknown with energy remaining.

Folks, I didn't chrono those individual shots, but I chrono'ed the loads at a blazing 718fps from a 2" barrel for the LSWC-K, and about the same (maybe 723fps or so IIRC) for the LRN.The 4" loads measured about 750fps.

Of course that says nothing about shock effect, stopping power, or anything else except basic penetration characteristics. (And yes, expansion was nil.) The LSWC-K penetration helps me believe that if I ever have to shoot in a crisis situation, that my bullet is very likely to drive thru the leather sofa in my living room (30 ft. from my hallway door), thru the upper arm of a dodging BG, and deep into or thru his chest cavity. I'll have to see if the lower .38 S&W vels promise to achieve anything similar. I like the old British & US military + modern Fackler tests that indicated 200g .38s plow straight through, and that soft lead bullets are likely to deform, smash bone, etc. I suspect that was because they were LFPs (at least the British round was that), and the later US police reports of the 200g tumbling inside the target were a result of the LRN design. . . ? So, maybe the car gun gets tumblers for anti-personnel use, and house guns get LSWC-Ks for drilling thru sofas first? Ah, decisions, decisions!

Actually, my own HD weapon is a 20 gauge pump w/buckshot, backed up by S&W 625-7 .45LC with 255g wide-meplat slugs at about 870fps. My secondary sidearms: 4" .38SPL Mod 67 with 200g LSWC-Ks. A couple of Colts with the same thing. My ladies will have the .38 S&W because the frame fits them, the weight does too, and I can load light for my recoil-averse daughter in hopes I can build her back up to heavier loads, while somewhat heavier for my other daughter & wife. Anyway, the standardization will allow my family to stop worrying about different cylinder releases, speedloaders, etc., and simply train the same way all the time, and their car guns will work the exact same as their house guns. (And yes, the British army felt the same way about sidearm training for average soldiers in the 1920s.) When they shoot each others' guns, it will sustain/improve their skills with their own--you get the picture. If I could get S&W J-frames in both 2" and 4" in .38SPL, I would have, but I can't. A 3" bbl. Chief's Special would have been a fine compromise, but I really want them to have two guns each--one purse/car, another always in the same place in the house.

I'll close by saying I'd never recommend cops or soldiers carry 5-shot .38S&W revolvers these days (except as some sort of BUG). But their tactical requirements, physical characteristics, and discipline/training are quite different than the women in my family. I suspect most BGs we might encounter would be highly dismayed to barge through "Door Number 3" and find themselves the surprise winner of 5 x 200g .38 slugs in center mass. . . .

I look forward to reporting back to you soon! Maybe I can dig up an old leather jacket and/or sweatshirt for my jugs to wear this time. . .

lrs · « **Reply #51 on:** January 01, 2010, 05:27:29 AM »

Louisiana, can you tell more about the group buy on the 200gr lswc mold you mentioned?

LouisianaMan · « **Reply #52 on:** January 01, 2010, 11:44:00 AM »

lrs,
Sure, PM coming your way in just a sec.
LM

lrs · « **Reply #53 on:** January 02, 2010, 07:11:49 AM »

Thanks LL, I was off the computer for the rest of the day. Got the message.

usbone1 · « **Reply #54 on:** January 07, 2010, 11:40:40 AM »

Two comments: Model 60 with three inch barrel, because I prefer that last inch of metal, and I purchased to new 200 grain .357 ammo from Reeds online...they are a GB sponsor. I, too, use it in my Marlin lever gun on pigs. Wonderful response from the targets. I have small hands and do not shoot magnum rounds through my Model 60. 125 grain hollow points designed for shorter barrels is preferred. Try Reeds Folks, their products are worth the effort.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #55 on:** January 07, 2010, 06:18:24 PM »

i have several model 36 smiths with 3 inch barrels that i supplied to all the girls in the home (including my wife) as their first pistols. i changed the grips to pacymeyer. i reload them all with all sorts of rounds no problems. they are all accurate reliable and easy on the learning curve for the girls. i really like them.

Mikey · « **Reply #56 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:44:41 AM »

Yes - by all means check Ron Reed's site. I am terribly remiss to think I forgot to mention him. I purchased some 200 gn LBT style bullets from him for the 38/357 but have not yet had the chance to try them out.

I have always been keen on Ron Reeds 7.62x25mm loads for the Tokarev and CZ52 and am kicking myself for not mentioning his 38/357 loads. I am remiss.

kmystry · « **Reply #57 on:** February 17, 2010, 06:15:05 AM »

My setup...a S&W Model 438 Bodyguard. My reloads are loaded with either TrailBoss or Unique powder and I like 125 gr. RNFP for practice rounds and 158 LSWC for carry generally. I don't see the need for +P loads day to day, but I do carry some factory +P rounds on occasion. I actually like the 100 round value-pak Wally World Remington hollowpoint +P's out of my Marlin Model 1894C levergun.
The Model 438 is, for me, the best of the bunch as far as versatility is concerned...double action for self defense and single action for longer shots against woods creatures or for plinking.
I've shot thousands of rounds out of this particular 438 already (fairly new), and I've "found the one" for me and my style of carry and shooting.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #58 on:** February 17, 2010, 06:24:40 AM »

I like the mod 38 airweight , but lately been using a mod 340 PD in town . In the field still like the mod. 38 . Why - well the light gun is easy to tote , easy to hide , a good blance in power for defense , the 340 is somewhat sealed to grit and dust , both will function in a coat pocket .
And i shoot reloads been doing so since the 70's for pratice only

LouisianaMan · « **Reply #59 on:** February 17, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »

Not to hijack the thread too much, but how does anyone get Unique to meter accurately at 3-4g levels? I have confidence that my 7-8g .45LC loads meter acceptably, but lower amounts vary badly. That's why I don't use Unique for .38s, or at least would only do so if I measured every single charge.