Author Topic: Name that atrocity! (Read 2754 times)

powderman · « **Reply #30 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:01:04 AM »

Not the point tm. They were still fighting, they didn't know they were beaten, now they do. POWDERMAN.

Questor · « **Reply #31 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:21:42 AM »

Most of the people killed at Dresden (and Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were civilians. Collectively it was on the order of 300,000 civilians. If that is not an atrocity, then what is? Regardless, they will be remembered in history as an early example of how air bombing became an efficient means of mass extermination and mass destruction. To say that the US has not committed atrocities is simply wrong factually. Additionally, the decimation of the North American people, slavery, and 100 years of Jim Crow-ism were atrocities. We simply need to accept it as a part of our history and our national legacy.

Denying the facts does nobody any good.

ms · « **Reply #32 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:25:17 AM »

Quote from: Questor on September 04, 2009, 03:21:42 AM

Most of the people killed at Dresden (and Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were civilians. Collectively it was on the order of 300,000 civilians. If that is not an atrocity, then what is? Regardless, they will be remembered in history as an early example of how air bombing became an efficient means of mass extermination and mass destruction. To say that the US has not committed atrocities is simply wrong factually. Additionally, the decimation of the North American people, slavery, and 100 years of Jim Crow-ism were atrocities. We simply need to accept it as a part of our history and our national legacy.

Denying the facts does nobody any good.

Good point about the slavery.

ms · « **Reply #33 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:27:09 AM »

Quote from: powderman on September 04, 2009, 03:01:04 AM

Not the point tm. They were still fighting, they didn't know they were beaten, now they do. POWDERMAN.

Powderman you get a pass your from KY.

teamnelson · « **Reply #34 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:09:05 AM »

Crackers, Jewish zio-freaks ... I guess respect and decency is only for those who agree with your pov. Sounds like the mentality of someone who would be capable of atrocity as you've dehumanized your target. Abortion wasn't okay when it was a baby, so we dehumanized it and called it a fetus. Then we attributed minor evil to it, and called inconvenient then threatening to quality of life so now it's no more morally repugnant than having a mole removed. Same logic is applied all around the world everyday to justify atrocities at the personal and institutional level.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 04, 2009, 10:41:46 AM »

In regards to Dresden, obviously some here are not of the intellectual level to comprehend that a war is more than the soldiers in the field. The people making the supplies (for the intelectually challenged this is the "civilians") are the greatest part of the war effort and cutting off the supplies is how you win the war.

Only someone completly ignorant of the way to wage war could call bombing out the supply lines to the troops would be a atrocity.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #36 on:** September 04, 2009, 10:46:18 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on September 04, 2009, 01:40:55 AM

BTW...Cabin, I was more than 1/2 serious about you getting a so-called conservative forum of some type going....

...TM7

I would prefer that it be called the "Constitution" or Libertarian" forum. Something like that. Conservative is okay but its defenition or perception of, has become warped by the new Republican party of morons. Or maybe it would be called "Cabin Mode".

ms · « **Reply #37 on:** September 04, 2009, 11:53:33 AM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on September 04, 2009, 10:41:46 AM

In regards to Dresden, obviously some here are not of the intellectual level to comprehend that a war is more than the soldiers in the field. The people making the supplies (for the intelectually challenged this is the "civilians") are the greatest part of the war effort and cutting off the supplies is how you win the war.

Only someone completly ignorant of the way to wage war could call bombing out the supply lines to the troops would be a atrocity.

Get your panties out of a wad. The topic is about mass extermination. Not how to win a war.

Yankee1 · « **Reply #38 on:** September 04, 2009, 01:51:19 PM »

Hi All
Does it count if it has not happened quite yet?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17584619/Swine-Flue-is-the-Pentagons-Bio-Weapon-Flu-is-Not-the-Biggest-Danger-its-the-VACCINE-man

Check out what Ms. Burgermiester has to say in this article.
She is an investigative reporter from Europe.
More eye openers.
Yankee1

Elijah Gunn · « **Reply #39 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:07:10 PM »

The Battan Death March, The Trail of Tears, and Shermans' March to the Sea.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #40 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:40:09 PM »

Atrocities...man the list would be almost endless...committed by all nations all races for many many reasons.

I have studied some of the more recent ones mostly pre WWI and during as well as WWII The Nazis the Russians just theirs alone provide one with all the horror and beastliness one could imagine. Truely the most spell binding reading as well as listening to the actual participants as well as survivors.

My horror at there words is insignificant compared to their actual experience of it. Atrocities committed for the sake of expediancy, ( just had no food nor the means to guard or care for them0 so it made perfect sense to kill them. Kill them they did all side Russians Nazis.. and yes even some Americans did it. Yet as a whole the American forces nerver did it en mass like the others.

Fire bombing was a deliberate act by allied forces used against the Japs and Germans for thew specific purpose of breaking the will of the civilian. It was thought and rightfully so that if the Civilians sufferd the horror of such a thing they would demand an end to the war from their soldiers. It also, was believed that it would break the fighting men if their families were being killed at home while they were away. Sherman used the same theory in his famous March To the Sea.

In the case of the civilians the horrors inflicted upon them did indeed succeed in breaking the majority of them to the point they wanted no more war. Yet when the soldiers lost their familiies it hardened them even more and made them more committed to the fight for revenge. The bombing of london during WWII on the other hand stiffened the resolve of all the Brits. One could say they saw the writing on the wall and they had to fight or die and they as well as Churchill knew it.

As was mentioned in an earlier post the Atrocities committed by the Japs when they took Nanking China has to rank at the top of all list as one of the most horrendous slaughters ever.
One thing is for certain Atrocities will always happen just hope and pray you will never be in one.

powderman · « **Reply #41 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:41:58 PM »

Quote from: Elijah Gunn on September 04, 2009, 03:07:10 PM

The Battan Death March, The Trail of Tears, and Shermans' March to the Sea.

ELIJAH. Those are good ones for sure.
tm and others. I will not appologize for my country using drastic measures to end a war we did not start. We were fighting 2 of the most powerful armies in the world, at the same time. Every day the war lasted, more American and allied lives were lost. The war was shortened greatly and all at our enemies expense, not ours. I will NOT appologize for America doing what was necessary to stop the war. My Dad fought the japs and saw first hand the cruelty they inflicted on American captives. They got what they deserved.
tm. Want peace for your Godless brethren??? Tell em to quit shooting rockets at civilians, quit murdering innocents, and LEAVE OCCUPIED ISRAEL, They are trespassers. POWDERMAN.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #42 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:55:13 PM »

and one more thing...

if you have ever studied War and the Great Generals of any and all times... they all have a common theme that they promote about conducting war.

They all believed that war was to be as horrendous and unmercifull action that could be brought on the opposing forces. They all believed that the qickest end would come only from total all out war a war in which all manner of hell would rain down upon the enemy and those that would support him. That in itself would be the fastest route to peace.

They were right and look at us now trying to worry about civcilian casulties in Afganistan to the point that we risk more of our soldiers lives. We have lost sight of who we are after and why. We as Americans never have tried to injure the civilians as a policy yet we up until the end of WWII knew that it was going to happen and continued the persuit of our enemy and if civilians were at the wrong place at the wrong time so be it. That Is War.

The deliberate targeting of civilian non combatants is an Atrocity yet the killing of innocents as a by product of attacking enemy soldiers is not.

Also, an Atrocity against the civilian population could indeed happen in America. Thats why we must be ever vigilant...and these are scary times for us as a nation.

kix · « **Reply #43 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:33:54 PM »

Concerning Dresden. I guess I'm another not of the intellectual level to understand that hundreds of thousands of civilians (mostly refugees from other bombed-out cities) weren't die-hard Nazi's and needed to be exterminated. Why wasn't Dresden bombed earlier? Simply because it wasn't a manufacturer of war goods,simple as that. It was bombed because every other city in Germany was already destroyed and the British and our Eighth Air Force had some extra bombs.I swear,some of you guys need to quit watching sit-coms and read a book on WW11. Kix

ShadowMover · « **Reply #44 on:** September 04, 2009, 07:59:32 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on September 03, 2009, 03:06:49 PM

Like I said cabin only old TM could find an atrocity where it was the Nazis who were the victims. And he wonders why I consider him a Nazi sypathiser if not one!

So TM were the zoiilluminatnwochupacabras the ones who fire bombed Dresden?

That's a pretty personal attack. Why not stick to the point of the thread, and argue facts not innuendoes?

The two biggest government run death tolls have to run up by the Europeans, the Soviet Union and China. The Soviets had the edge on Hitler even before WW2 started, with the Holodomor,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_famine
not to mention the victims of the earlier Bolshevik purges, anti Christian purges and murders led by Lenin.
After Stalin (Joseph Djugasvili) took power the real killing started. Even before Hitler and Stalin agreed to invade Poland and split it like a cold six pack, he was way ahead on murders. Who did we side with? Why old Uncle Joe of course.

Before that we have to look at the organized slaughter of WW1. My God! What in the he## was that for? The best men of a whole generation dead. For what?

Then we have the various Chinese civil wars and the communists killing 40-50 million.

Take a look:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

There are some numbers. We can discus the numbers and the reasons if you want to.

teamnelson · « **Reply #45 on:** September 04, 2009, 10:17:51 PM »

What are the common psycho-social factors in all of those atrocities? Do they exist today? Who will be the next target group?

BBF · « **Reply #46 on:** September 05, 2009, 05:19:23 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on September 04, 2009, 11:06:50 AM

Interesting thing for the zionists is, had there been no WW2, then likely there would .....

...TM7

OMG !! What would some people here use as an example of "bad guy/country" in that case?

BBF · « **Reply #47 on:** September 05, 2009, 06:39:15 AM »

Nixon( I believe it was him) had to poke the sleeping Dragon. On the other hand from where would WallyWorld and others get all the stuff they are selling to us.

Casull · « **Reply #48 on:** September 06, 2009, 06:40:58 AM »

tm, nice figures. Especially since the city itself has recently claimed that the death toll in Dresden was between about 24,000 and 40,000. Oh well, your numbers are much more impressive.

Casull · « **Reply #49 on:** September 06, 2009, 06:42:43 AM »

Quote

I think Kennedy was the last duly elected president of the USA.

Now that is rich. Kennedy likely did not even win that election.

BBF · « **Reply #50 on:** September 06, 2009, 07:43:18 AM »

While on the subject of firebombing targeting mostly civilians, Hamburg and Tokyo come to mind.

teamnelson · « **Reply #51 on:** September 06, 2009, 08:32:48 AM »

Quote from: BBF on September 06, 2009, 07:43:18 AM

While on the subject of firebombing targeting mostly civilians, Hamburg and Tokyo come to mind.

Targeting civilians? Hardly. Hamburg was a uboat pen, shipyard and oil refinery in a densely populated area. The dolittle raid was a poorly developed attempt to hit infrastructure, and because of poor intel and uncertainty with airframe, timing, it resulted in civilian casualties. If you aim for a deer and hit a branch through dense forest or your optics aren't aligned, that's not targeting trees. Atrocities are ill intent with ill result.

BBF · « **Reply #52 on:** September 06, 2009, 09:30:40 AM »

The fire bombing of Hamburg was concentrated to the residental area as those types of bombs would have no effect on U-Boat pens and other hardened structures.. I don't think Doolittle's raid was the one that crossed my mind.

PS
Found it, it was the Raid of March 9-10 in 1945 that killed an estimated 100,000 in Tokyo

ironglow · « **Reply #53 on:** September 07, 2009, 03:51:00 AM »

Quote from: Cabin4 on September 03, 2009, 12:49:24 PM

Quote from: TeamNelson on September 02, 2009, 11:17:47 AM
anybody else just want to puke? every hour there is a new example of Constitutional abuse, and the dialogue switches to each individual abuse. when is enough enough?

How about the fact that our president has 20 Czars, most with shady backgrounds, some professed communists and some with criminal backgrounds, some who profess mandatory population control including forced sterilization of citizens. And NONE of these Czars go through any Congressional confirmation process and Congress has NO oversight on their go-forward actions. Pretty scary stuff.

While the thousands of deaths in Dresden were indeed a tragedy, along with the millions killed by Communists/Marxists/Bolsheviks, we should not lose sight of the present..which affects us directly. Before 1917 I would opine that if the average Russian were asked if 50 million Christians would be slaughtered by their government in the next 20 years they would have said "that can't happen here"..
Before Carter gave the green light to radical Islam in the form of Iatola Khomeni. most people would not have envisioned the hatred of Muslims for the rest of the world...

Don't say "it can't happen here"..what can happen when a government combines the "attributes" of a profound sympathy for both Marxism and Islam ?

When we speak of CURRENT & ONGOING atrocities, we simply MUST consider this:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Scroll down to see a list of atrocities worldwide for just the past 2 months. Adding to this total, consider the millions slain in Africa during the last few years..... in the name of Mohammed.

We can reminisce abouy atrocities of the past, but current and future potential should concern us much more.

nw_hunter · « **Reply #54 on:** September 07, 2009, 05:14:55 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on September 01, 2009, 11:44:44 AM

They all pale in comparison to what's looming on the horizon. I expect the death toll to be in the billions world wide when this "new world order" takes over. Closer to home here I fully expect that 40 million figure to look small.

The folks bringing you this new world order are I believe hoping for an 85% to 90% reduction in the human species.

I fear you may be right GB!
Some of the folks on the forum still believe they are living in the land of the free and the home of the brave. We are a hell of a long way from the country our founding fathers gave us.

The New world order cabal that rules today, knows "NO" borders. They only see sheeple across the planet they rule ,as they see fit.

These Maggots of greed have no conscience, and no loyalty to any nation. The Atrocity's of yesterday will probably pale in comparison to what awaits us.

Casull · « **Reply #55 on:** September 07, 2009, 07:14:19 AM »

tm, it's funny how your numbers bounce around - 700,000 then 600,000, even early reports were saying 150,000 to 250,000 (and you know how early reports are more often than not exaggerated). Now, do you really believe that someone stacking bodies is going to know the difference between 40,000 and 600,000? I really doubt it (it would just become a blur long before those numbers were reached). Amazing though that Vonnegut survived unscathed when, according to you, more than half of the population of the city was incinerated. And, as for you suggestion that I go into a bar and ask, I must say that your scientific methodology is interesting. Is that where you get your "facts"?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #56 on:** September 07, 2009, 08:24:05 AM »

Shootall fact has no place in the world of make believe.

It is obvious some in their childlike innocence have no idea of warfare or of an enemy having the ability to wage war. In the war between the states the win did not come to the better army, only to the better supplied army. The south (which won most of the battles) had it supply lines cut and its army could no longer wage war. To our innocent uninformed minds we have here they cannot quite comprehend that the civilians are the ones who allow the army to keep fighting.

Warfare is no longer the "honorable" type we saw in the American revolution. For those who have been there they know it is a bloody horrible thing, but the blood and horror are a neccessity. What the naïve do not understand that to win in war one must be prepared to be one step more horrible that the enemy.

War is not for the cowardly or weak, to them any war is atrocity, to the brave and strong who have been there. The evils of war are only a neccessity.

ms · « **Reply #57 on:** September 07, 2009, 10:10:53 AM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on September 07, 2009, 08:24:05 AM

Shootall fact has no place in the world of make believe.

It is obvious some in their childlike innocence have no idea of warfare or of an enemy having the ability to wage war. In the war between the states the win did not come to the better army, only to the better supplied army. The south (which won most of the battles) had it supply lines cut and its army could no longer wage war. To our innocent uninformed minds we have here they cannot quite comprehend that the civilians are the ones who allow the army to keep fighting.

Warfare is no longer the "honorable" type we saw in the American revolution. For those who have been there they know it is a bloody horrible thing, but the blood and horror are a neccessity. What the naïve do not understand that to win in war one must be prepared to be one step more horrible that the enemy.

War is not for the cowardly or weak, to them any war is atrocity, to the brave and strong who have been there. The evils of war are only a neccessity.

We all knew you were a coward billy.

teamnelson · « **Reply #58 on:** September 07, 2009, 10:35:29 AM »

Bravery & cowardice have little to do with war, but it sure does give a person a chance to test their mettle. Seen some pretty "brave" men piss themselves when the mortars fell; seen "weaker" men step over a scared comrade and provide cover fire for others. The bravest man is the one who will not use whatever means necessary to win, but preserves ideals in the midst of horror. Alot of those types also seem to win as well. Atrocities are still evil even in war.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #59 on:** September 07, 2009, 12:00:58 PM »

I agree with a previous poster That some should read some good books on World War II HIstory that might help to start.

We wanted an "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER" of both Japan and Germany..no negotiations no terms and that meant beating theit A888es into the ground and there were good reasons for such bombings and wholesale horror inflicted on Germany and Japan.

The statement made about a witness that stacked thousands of bodies none in iniform sounds a little suspect to me for the bodies that i have seen that were burned had nothing to identify no clothes no hats no medals just burnt ash clumps. and bone was the only recognizable thing left.

Save all the sorrow for either the Japanese or Germans for a book for the reality was that the people of Germany were joyous in the streets when the German Armies were slaughtering the Poles by the hundreds of thousands. Russians on the invasion by Germany were annilated in the same manner all to shouts of the Glory of the Reich by the innocent civilians of Germany. However when the fortunes changed you expect that everyoneone should have stopped the horror. The Russians were unmerciful with the Germans during and after the War and the atrocities inflicted upon them was more for revenge than any other. They did not forgive the murder of their fathers, mothers the rape of their grandmothers and sisters on so one. They repayed the Germans tenfold and they deserved every bit of it and I bet that if anyone on this board had had their families suffer by the Germans that way would have repaid them in kind.

...They have sown the wind and shall reap the whirlwind...

The Japs were barbaric with every people the conquerd merciless is an understatementr and the people of Japan Celibrated every victory even when they took upon the slaughter of the Chinese in Nanking. They never thought they would be stopped the same for the Germans. Yet they were due to the Industrial might of the USA and of course her brave soldiers , yet, one must never overlook the contribution in lives that the Russians, as well as all other allies, expended in defeating Germany. No I am not a Ruskkie Lover but I do know that without all the luck in the world and millions of Russians giving their lives we would not have defeated Germany.

The fact are that we did what had to be done to win that war and thank god we did that includes the use of the Nukes on Japan. So for anyone to make out that anyone but Japan and Gernay are at fault for doing what had to be done is pure BS!.
Revisionist history is very easy and convinient for some as a means od explaining the faults of the USA yet it is nothing more that an attempt to cover of the real Atrocities of those that brought on the war and whose ambitions to control the entire world was shattered by a bunch of uneducated sub humans and farmboys with out the steel of the mighty Germanic race. They have to be able to explain just how it happened that Adolph Hitler and the Mighty Third Reich were totaly and completely destroyed.
Sorry but the truth is the truth and nothing can change the facts and it was us that beat the hell outa them and if need we will do it again.