Marlin 1895 (pics added)

[Coyote Hunter]

Do you guys think a good peep style sight would help with accuracy???  This is extremely impressive and all I could ever ask of the gun.  Although I don't and wont reload, just not something I can get into right now. 

Also, do you replace your front sight when you throw a peep sight on???  I'd like a sight that I can adjust easy by hand, not something I have to try and tap with a hammer to adjust.  Perhaps some of these different peeps are just what I'm looking for

Peep sights can help with accuracy, depending on a lot of factors.  There is a reason the long range guys like them.  For griz country a peep sight can also help speed acquisition and they are very hard to break compared to a scope.

All of my Marlins have Williams FireSight front beads.  Green is the easiest to see, or so they say, all mine have orange.

I’ve also installed Warne Quick Detach Maxima rings and bases on all my Marlins.  The scopes vary – Leupold 2-7x is a great choice because it has 4.9” of eye relief at 2x.  I’ve fired my “Rhino Blaster” loads with the VX-II 2-7x installed with no problems (i.e. no scope cut).  I also have a Leupold Vari-X II and  M8 4x on my Marlin .375 Win and .30-30.  The M8-4x is OK but less than 100% satisfactory due to eye relief/positioning issues.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Remington Trapdoor level load harvest anything in North America and it's fun to shoot.  If I need a .458 Winchester, I'll buy one.

I've broke the wrist of a Marlin stock shooting warm loads so I won't be doing that again.  I just don't need that kind of power and in fact a .30-30 is plenty for what I do.  I've owned an 1886, an original Trapdoor, an H&R Officers Model, a T/C Contender, quite a few Marlins, quite a few Handi Rifles, and a Ruger #3 in .45-70.  I was shooting those hot loads back in 1977.  Been there done that.

Swampgas –

If you don’t want to shoot anything but Trapdoor loads in your Marlin that’s fine – I really don’t care.  But your snide remark with its clear implication that others who choose to take advantage of the Marlin’s greater capabilities are “compensating” was over the line.

The loads I shoot in my Marlin range from about 7 foot-pounds recoil to 48 foot-pounds.  My hunting loads run about 38 and I am quite happy with them – they offer more downrange power than any off my other leverguns which is the reason I got the .45-70 in the first place (I already had the .44 Mag and .375 Win, the .30-30 came later).

By the way, I’m under no illusion that the .45-70 can match the  .458 Win Mag, but I do appreciate the flatter trajectory and greater downrange power Marlin-level loads deliver compared to Trapdoor-level loads.  I’ve done a fair amount of side-by-side load testing with my Marlin, enough to know that my hunting loads are far more destructive than Remington’s Trapdoor loads. 
That testing has proven to my complete satisfaction that penetration alone is a very poor basis for comparing destructive capability of two loads – a 300g hardcast running 1167fps will penetrate twelve one-gallon water jugs and exit, destroying the first jug or two and leaving a caliber-diameter hole in the remaining jugs.  By contrast, my hunting loads will explosively destroy 8 jugs and get captured in the 9th while at the same time blowing a jug-sized hole in the 3/8” plywood supporting the lead jug.

The elk I took at 213 lasered yards with my .45-70 was standing broadside in open sage.  It was part of a herd that was on the march and there was no chance to get closer.  Assuming 100-yard zeros for both the Remington 405g and my 350g North Fork handload, the ballistics look like this at 215 yards (as close as my calculator will get to 213):
-30.2”/1038fps/970fpe  = Remington 405g
-11.1”/1539fps/1840fpe = 350g North Fork handload

Having seen what .458” bullets do at 1167fps, let alone slower, and having seen what even antelope can do when chest shot with a bullet that doesn’t expand well, no thanks – I’ll stick with my hunting loads. Call it “compensating” if you want, I call it respecting the game. 

[Dixie Dude]

If Swamps stock was broken from firing "hot" loads back in '77 then it could have been a weak stock.  Mine is an XLR version, stainless steel, with a laminated stock.  My "hot" loads are not max, but do kick and it is very accurate with a ghost ring sight.  I can shoot inside 2" at 100 yards with the ghost ring.

[Davemuzz]

If Swamps stock was broken from firing "hot" loads back in '77 then it could have been a weak stock.  Mine is an XLR version, stainless steel, with a laminated stock.  My "hot" loads are not max, but do kick and it is very accurate with a ghost ring sight.  I can shoot inside 2" at 100 yards with the ghost ring.

I personally like my Laminated XLR stock. But for whatever reason, I'm one who when I take a new wood stock gun out.....no matter how careful I am, it seems to show the fact that I was hunting. The Laminated stock can take some abuse and still look like new.

These guns can hold inside a 2" group at 100 yards using a peep sight (ghost or williams) easy 'nuff. And that's right out of the box.....no trigger jobs....barrel floatin....or other "stuff" like I've done to some of my other rifles. And that's with my Marlin 6+lb trigger pull. I usually do or have done a trigger to get it down to 4lbs. But on this 45-70.....for some reason I like it this heavy. I think it's because it's a serious bullet......requires a serious pull? I dunno....every bullet is serious. Maybe it's because a heavy bullet needs a heavy trigger pull?

Whatever the reason, it works. Yeah....fer sure!!!

Dave

[Swampman]

The Remington 405 grain loading makes 1300fps out of a 22" Marlin barrel.  It's all about knowing your load & rifle.  As I get older the need to impress myself seems to fade.  Some never grow out of it.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Remington 405 grain loading makes 1300fps out of a 22" Marlin barrel.  It's all about knowing your load & rifle.  As I get older the need to impress myself seems to fade.  Some never grow out of it.

I know my rifle and loads pretty well.  When hunting elk I go with a 350g North Fork @ 2183fps, MPBR zero for a 6" diameter target (+3" @ 100 yards, zero @ 174 yards, -3" @ 204 yards).  At 300 yards it holds 5" groups, is down -22" and retains 1336fps and 1386fpe. 

Those numbers make it a good deeps woods rifle while still suitable for the big parks and open sage I often find myself in - exactly what I got it for...

If I’m hunting deer or antelope specifically, I have a very nice 300g load with the Speer Uni-Cor.

On the other hand, when I want simple plinking fun, I have 300 and 350g hardcast loads that make the Remington 405g Trapdoor loads feel like very heavy recoiling loads in comparison.

If you want to be a one-load kind of guy, go for it.  For myself, no thanks.

[Swampman]

I'm only interested in duplicating the Remington 405 grain loading.  I reload to save money.

[Keith L]

This has been on the edge for a while.  Time to stop before we get into trouble.  Lets not get personal again.  Keep it civil.

[calling4life]

Do you guys think a good peep style sight would help with accuracy??? 

C4L,

I don't know if you've shot with a peep sight or not, but some folks like 'em and some don't. Of course, I do. You may want to try someone's if you've never shot one before.

As far as the front sight, I left it stock. But I did take off the front hood as that let's more light on the front bead. My eyes are over 50 so.....I need help here 'n there.

Dave

My eyes aren't the best either, and why I ask about the front bead is because even at 50 yards it covered a lot of my target.  Keeping small groups I would think would be easier if the bead didn't cover 8" of space.  So that is where I thought a slimmer front sight might benefit. 

But, I may just have to mess around with it a bit, I really hope I can get her dialed in though, I like the gun, good heft and a fantastic feeling of power in a nice package. 

[Davemuzz]

C4L,

I always sight in my open-sighted rifles so you have to hold the front bead at 6:00 o'clock. That way I can always "keep my eye on the prize" so to speak right up to squeeze time. On a long shot, I want to make sure my target hasn't moved (taken a step forward, back...or turned sideways) and for me, when the front bead is just "touching" the target bullseye (the 6:00 position) I have a lot more confidence when I squeeze the trigger.

Dave

[Coyote Hunter]

I'm only interested in duplicating the Remington 405 grain loading.  I reload to save money.

Not everyone shares your sentiments regarding Remington or Remington products in general, let alone the 405g Trapdoor load, which, at 1330fps, is well below what is possible at Trapdoor pressures with smokeless powders. 

I have a pile of Remington 405g bullets but find I shoot them very little.  Here’s why:

1.   If I want to save money, cast bullets are much cheaper than the Remington 405g jacketed bullet and, at Trapdoor muzzle velocities (~1394fps) perform about the same.
2.   At Remington’s velocities (1330fps), the 405g Remington bullets simply don’t provide the ballistics or terminal performance I want for hunting.
3.   For plinking, the Remington 405g bullets are much heavier than necessary and even at Remington’s Trapdoor velocities they generate far more recoil than necessary for plinking loads.  For example, in a 7.5 pound Marlin, the Remington loads, assuming 30.0g powder, generate 19.5 foot-pounds of recoil while my 300g hardcast use 13.5g HS-6 and run at 1167fps (.22 rimfire speeds) for a mere 7.2 foot-pounds recoil.
4.   For hunting purposes the Remington 405g bullet can’t keep up with a good 300g or 350g load in terms of trajectory and the 350 can deliver more energy at the ranges at which I would use my .45-70 (300 yards maximum with my loads).  In grizzly country or Africa I would prefer a 460g bullet or heavier, and again the 405g can’t keep up – this time in the energy and momentum departments.  (There is a reason the Army went from a 405g load to a 500g load…)
5.   I prefer better bullets than cup-and-core construction.  The North Forks I shoot are bonded core bullets with a monolithic shank and I’ve been extremely pleased with their performance on deer and elk.  I also prefer the Speer 300g Uni-Cor (bonded) bullets, which I can shoot at higher velocities, with significantly less recoil, and which also hold up extremely well.

In fact, while I know a fair number of people that hunt with Marlin .45-70 rifles, I don’t know of any that hunt with Remington’s Trapdoor loads for the kind of hunting I do.  Loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore and Corbon and a couple of other manufacturers are much more popular, as are handloads running well above trapdoor pressures and velocities – and mostly with bullets other than the Remington 405g JSP.

Frankly, running Trapdoor loads through a Marlin is kind of like running .300 Savage equivalent loads through a .300 Win Mag – nothing wrong with doing so but it doesn’t begin to take advantage of the rifle…

[Swampman]

The Remington 405 doesn't generate the harsh recoil that the lighter bullets do even when pushed at the same velocity.  The heavier bullets are more accurate because that's what the guns were designed to shoot.  The Remington 405 will work just fine up to about 2000 fps.  I agree a 405 cast bullet is good too and that's what I'll mostly be using.  If I wish to shoot long range I'll haul one of the dozens of other rifles I have out of the safe that are more suitable for that job.  I don't have to impress anyone I just want a freezer full of meat.  The Speer 400 grain bullet is also suitable for the .45-70 but it's more expensive.

[john keyes]

I'm a big speer fan but I don't like their 400 because I think it is too hard. But that is just what "think".  I've had mucho success with the rem 405, and I load about 53gr H4895.  what is the velocity?  hell I don't know.  I do know its about 18" down at 200 yds.

 

I just will never shoot anything lighter in my 45/70 because I have a piece de le resistance firearm for 300gr projectiles. Its called the 444P

 

[Coyote Hunter]

The Remington 405 doesn't generate the harsh recoil that the lighter bullets do even when pushed at the same velocity. 

Never the facts get in the way of an amusing but completely erroneous claim.  The laws of physics have not been repealed and you have not found the secret to perpetual motion or free energy or anything of the kind…

The fact is that given a 405g bullet and a lighter bullet pushed to the same velocity, the heavier 405g bullet will introduce greater recoil with a faster impulse.
These following handloads are all chrono’d loads from my 22” Marlin 1895, with recoil and recoil velocity calculated with “Point Blank”, assuming a 7.5 pound rifle/ammo combination.

Let’s start with the 405g at Remington’s 1330fps Trapdoor velocity and assume 30.0g powder (which is probably light):
Recoil / Recoil Velocity / Load
19.5fp / 13.0fps / 405g Remington @ 1330fps (assuming 30.0g powder, which is probably light)
17.4fp / 12.2fps / 300g hardcast @ 1366fps, 49.5g Varget

Or, let’s bump the 405g up to Marlin velocities:
Recoil / Recoil Velocity / Load
45.0fp / 19.7fps / 405g Remington @ 1982fps, 48.8g H4198
42.6fp / 19.1fps / 350g North Fork @ 2183fps, 51.0g H4198
39.0fp / 18.3fps / 350g Speer JSP @ 2067fps, 50.5g H4198
36.6fp / 17.7fps / 300g Speer UCFN @ 2247fps, 54.5g H4198
31.4fpe / 16.4fps / 300g Speer UCFN @ 2075fps, 51.0g H4198
28.6fp / 15.7fps / 300g Barnes XFN @ 2004fps, 47.0g H419

Pretty clearly, the 405g load is generating more recoil with a faster impulse in all cases, often significantly so and quite contrary to your claim.

For my plinking, though, I prefer this:
7.2fp / 7.9fps / 300g hardcast @ 1167fps, 13.5g HS-6

The heavier bullets are more accurate because that's what the guns were designed to shoot.

Actually, that is not necessarily the case.  The most accurate loads in my rifle have been with the 350g North Fork.

The Remington 405 will work just fine up to about 2000 fps.  I agree a 405 cast bullet is good too and that's what I'll mostly be using.  If I wish to shoot long range I'll haul one of the dozens of other rifles I have out of the safe that are more suitable for that job.  I don't have to impress anyone I just want a freezer full of meat.  The Speer 400 grain bullet is also suitable for the .45-70 but it's more expensive.

I’m actually more concerned about wounding an animal and having it get away than I am filling the freezer.  The load I hunt with is better suited to my needs than a Trapdoor load.

[Graybeard]

The Remington 405 doesn't generate the harsh recoil that the lighter bullets do even when pushed at the same velocity.

Yup swampy's ignorance shines brightly yet again. I believe he takes the prize by far for the most and highest percentage of completely ignorant remarks made on this site. We really need to come up with a trophy to present him for the feat.

[Swampman]

I've shot tons of 405 & 300s.  I hate the recoil impulse of the 300s and won't use them.  I base what I say on personal experience in the field over a period of about 45 years using multiple guns.  Say what you will. 

[Graybeard]

BUT you said fired at same velocity a lighter bullet kicks same as a heavier one. That's a REALLY DUMB comment and isn't back by that last post. No doubt the 300s are moving much faster than the 400s. If so then yeah you could get more recoil from a fast 300 than a slow 400. If you'd engage your brain before your fingers go into motion you'd not look like a fool nearly as often.

[Swampman]

Yes, I said fired at the same velocity.  The 300s are painful and the 405s just push like a muzzleloader.  I can't say why that is but I think it has something to do with time in the barrel and muzzle rise.  I've always felt that light for caliber bullets are more painful to shoot.  That goes for pistols & rifles.  If reporting the facts that I presonally verified in the field makes me look like a fool then so be it.  I quit caring what people think about me years ago.  I don't have an ego.

[Graybeard]

You're NOT shooting them at the same velocity. What's so hard about that to get thru your head?

[Coyote Hunter]

I've shot tons of 405 & 300s.  I hate the recoil impulse of the 300s and won't use them.  I base what I say on personal experience in the field over a period of about 45 years using multiple guns.  Say what you will. 

In the same gun and at the same velocity the 300 grain bullets will generate LESS recoil than the 405g bullets.  Sorry, but that's a fact.  The laws of physics have not been repealed.

If you are experiencing something different then one of two things is true:

1.   You have discovered the ever elusive secret to perpetual motion (free energy), or
2.   You are living in a fantasy land.
 

I’m thinking #2 ...

[Swampman]

I am shooting them at the same velocity.  I've said that twice now.  I can only report what I've found to be the case.  I try to refrain from just repeating what others say, or what I've read in a magazine.

[Graybeard]

I am shooting them at the same velocity.  I've said that twice now.  I can only report what I've found to be the case.  I try to refrain from just repeating what others say, or what I've read in a magazine.

I'm sick and tired of your lying BS here. Either join the rest of us in the real world or go find another site to spread your brand of BS on as I'm tired of it here. The vast majority of what you post is pure BS and lies and I think that like me most here are tired of seeing it. No one is as ignorant as you try to pretend to be so I can only assume your purpose in it is to disrupt the harmony on the site and instigate argument at every opportunity. Both are clear rules violations and I'm just not going to put up with it any longer.

[Skunk]

Straighten up your act Swamper, or you'll become: 

[Davemuzz]

For further clarification of the direction you are heading, just read those 3 words in that small ribbon the the left of the fearful looking Viking.

[Swampman]

It shoots MOA.  The cheap Winchester 300 grain loads I used for rough sighting in were pretty painful in a T-shirt off the bench but the Remington 405s were very accurate and enjoyable.  You gotta grin after each shot.

[Swampman]

.

[Spanky]

Nice rifle Swampman.



Spanky

[HL]

Well, since we are talking from experience, I will speak of my load testing two weeks ago. Loading 300gr bullets and 405gr bullets.

I loaded 300gr. to a MV of 1800, which is not blazing, but fast enough for deer and hogs. Recoil was pleasant, nothing too much to handle.

Now, The 405 grainer, loaded to a MV of 1500, another story. Recoil was much more noticable and punishing than the 300's.

I can only imagine how the 405's would feel, if I loaded them up to 1800 fps.

I tested 12 different loads for the 300's and only 2 for the 405's.

That's from my personal experience, and as stated above, physics don't lie.

[Swampman]

I have shot both at 1800fps (and more) and I still feel the 300 grainers are much more punishing at that speed.  The rifle comes straight back instead of the muzzle rising as it does with the 405s.  Everyone has an opinion.  This is mine.

[Oldshooter]

Swampman,

Here's a pic of my reloading of the Hornady 325ftx. I'm loading this over IMR-3031. Now, Hornady doesn't list a load using 3031, but I've shot over 100 rounds from my XLR with no signs of pressure and with excellent accuracy. The load shoots the bullet at 1700fps with little deviation. This is a 4 shot group at 200 yards. It shoots almost as tight at 300 yards.

Do you guys think a good peep style sight would help with accuracy???  This is extremely impressive and all I could ever ask of the gun.  Although I don't and wont reload, just not something I can get into right now.  

Also, do you replace your front sight when you throw a peep sight on???  I'd like a sight that I can adjust easy by hand, not something I have to try and tap with a hammer to adjust.  Perhaps some of these different peeps are just what I'm looking for

Try the one from Skinner, I had to replace my fron blade but it was no problem. The skinner adjust for windage and elevation with a set screw to hold it.

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