Author Topic: home made BP pellets (Read 2015 times)

good shot · « **on:** September 06, 2009, 04:06:13 AM »

I am in the process of developing an easier way of making paper cartridges for cap and ball pistols, .36 caliber.
Thinking of trying a light spray of water on BP to see if it may bind it together, extruding it through a 7/16 tube , allowing to dry.
Would not want to destroy the granular characteristic completely as it has a controlling effect on burn rate and thus consistency of pressure developed.
I am aware of the "corning" process whereby BP was wetted and made into large clumps to prevent the 3 elements from separating in transit, then broken up to grains at point of use.
Any one care to offer input?
Thanks, SS

flmason · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2009, 04:17:48 AM »

I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe re-wetting the powder may cause the potassium nitrate to re-crystalize and thus ruin the powder.

The point of the corning process is to get as good an "intimate" mixture as possible. When the nitrate recrystalizes, you lose that.

My best guess, note the word guess, is that the best way to do what you want is to make the powder from scratch, with a binder already in the powder (dextrin I read one person tried) and then compress the powder to pellet shape.

good shot · « **Reply #2 on:** September 09, 2009, 10:11:25 AM »

My experience has been that wet black powder, when dried , is just as live as it was originally.
Reading the Journal of the Lewis and Clark expedition I see that they spent a lot of time drying the powder after dumping the canoes and their contents in the river, apparently didn't adversely affect the product.
A friend in our local club was disposing of BP that had once been wet and since dried.
His method was to sprinkle it on a fire, he has healed nicely but it took some time.
The one thing I might be concerned about is that I have heard commercial PB has a coating that helps prevent BP from self igniting when compacted.
Phineas Gage comes to mind, if I remember correctly he was tamping BP in a hole for blasting, a spark was created, the tamping rod went through his cheekbone and out the top of his head, he lived but it changed his personality, I think he became a liberal.
Science teachers I have spoken with related that one needs to be careful as BP one makes oneself can spark when compressed.
Kind of like they told me at fireworks school, don't look down the tube, whether it is a 1.5 in. or a 12 in. mortor, they still come out about 200 MPH. So you have to take the rules by faith since when something goes wrong with this stuff, it goes real wrong, real fast.
My reading of the corning process is that it was created to prevent the component chemicals from separating in transit, than broken up to usable form at destination.
Thank you for responding, I did want to hash this over with someone. I know that BP is "stuck" on the end of Pyrodex pellets to get it to light, Maybe isopropol alcohol would help bind it temporarily and then dry out.
I have found a cake decorating tube that I might adapt to extrude the mixture.

good shot · « **Reply #3 on:** September 09, 2009, 03:03:38 PM »

to flmason, thank you for the input on dextrin, I did some exploring and found a couple youtube videos and looks easy to make, do you suppose corn starch alone would sufficiently bind the powder together?
Thank you again for the input. SS

flmason · « **Reply #4 on:** September 09, 2009, 09:56:44 PM »

Hi Good Shot,
Have to admit, I'm in the research phase on this one too. So everything I say should be questioned. Hopefully that's clear to everyone reading. I don't want anyone hurt on my account. I'm trying to figure the safest and easiest way to make a grade of BP good enough to actually use as I'm considering getting a flintlock eventually, on the grounds that it uses the least number of components I can't make myself. (I.e. no caps.) Granted, given the knowledge one could make literally anything. But the idea I'm chasing is, "easiest way to make the required components for accurate shooting with the least outside manufacturing, and least complications commensurate with safety".

That having been said, my speculation is that any combustible "sticky stuff" could be used as a binder. It's just that I expect the industry has already figured out what the best ones are. Dextrin is the only one I've seen mentioned around the web in which the writer actually seemed to have tested it. So it's high on my list of things to try when I actually feel knowledgeable enough to try this all out.

The Foxfire books seem to give the impression it's not all quite as critical as some writers make out. So I'm a little uncertain of process at the moment.

Sorry to be getting off topic here as you are interested in pellets, specifically.

If wetting and redrying is has no ill effects on the powder, then perhaps all one really needs to do is get the powder wet, compress it into your pellet form and pop it out when dry enough.

Photos and vids I've seen of compressing wet powder into cakes to facilitate corning seem to show the powder coming out hard as rock.

Not sure how well that would a) stay together and b) how hard to light?

Sorry to have to be so speculative and long winded. It's just a topic I'm highly interested in and want to arrive at a process for my own use (just for powder, pellets are interesting but secondary for me) so that I can ensure I always am able to fuel my smoke poles! (Though I consider bow and arrow to be the safest and perhaps easiest hunting weapon to fashion from scratch.)

good shot · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2009, 03:22:26 AM »

To flmason: Thanks again for the response.
Sounds like you are getting back to self-sufficiency , hope it works out.
A friend once shared a video about the man who makes muzzleoaders at Williamsburg VA. made it all, lock work, springs, barrels, cast the brass parts. Very interesting.
I work at a University, we hire some students, one young man had a father who hunts bear with a spear, has gotten several.
I asked him if his father was dominant around the house he said " Oh Yes, what he says goes".
Bow is great to hunt with, saw a brief show on making arrows, the guy was good at it, Apache , I think.
British army found during the Zulu Wars that you don't need to reload a spear.
The youtube on making dextrin has me interested in looking for more info there for this project, may not haver to reinvent the wheel.
Best wishes,

good shot · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2009, 07:27:11 AM »

freepatentsonline.com/3937771/htlm has some interesting info on black powder, looks like the graphite is the "glazing" process that enhances safety, and I see what you were saying about the corning process.
I saw a picture in a Time/Life book years ago and took my understanding of it from that, may have misremembered, I am old enough to be allowed to do that.
By the way, does flmason indicate you are a member of the Grand Lodge?
Best wishes,

flmason · « **Reply #7 on:** September 16, 2009, 02:18:24 AM »

Yes, I have been wondering about graphite glazing as I'm researching making powder from scratch. No doubt the self sufficiency thing is driving that. But in reality, if I was truly expecting an EOTW or SHTF situation, I'd be stockpiling smokeless powder reloading equipment. Smokeless arms would be required to be competitive with the two legged problems that would arise.

But, to conserve that ammo for such uses, I see bow and black powder as alternatives for putting food on the table. And just good info to know.

Nope, no connection to a grand lodge. Have thought about it at times, but am not big on taking oaths of any sort, LOL!

good shot · « **Reply #8 on:** September 16, 2009, 03:00:09 PM »

thanks, now I am leaning towards making the paper cartridges, making forms and loading with loose powder. Still haven't totally given up on the slightly moistened and formed powder with a slight binder added.
Am using a dowel and cigarette papers for a few trial runs.
Have thought of making a paper slurry with a little potassium nitrate added and forming small paper cartridges to be filled with powder and ball, the nitrate will enable it to light. Have heard of tea bags as being a good material for them also.
Lots to think of, am going to visit some fireworks sites for ideas too, looks like the dextrin is used as a binder for stars and such, they need to ignite and burn to be right.
Best wishes,

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2009, 03:07:45 PM »

Use alcohol to wet the mix. It dries faster and won't react with the components.

good shot · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2009, 03:19:27 PM »

great idea, no residue, dries quickly, alcohol would have an affinity for carbon.
Has been recommended by a friend locally to try cigarette machine pre made tubes.
I want to use a wonder wad between ball and powder, (folks who have had a chain fire don't want another one) so the powder end will need to be small enough to fit the chamber easily and the top will have a wad and ball to be pressed in the chamber.
Thanks for the input.

blhof · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2009, 03:16:55 PM »

Saw a show a long time ago, before the current survival shows, the guy was a survival expert, who had studied the native American ways. He was in Alaska and picked up some rocks, made an arrowhead, stripped some bark for binding, got a relatively straight limb and used the arrowhead to straighten and notch it. He walked along, building a bow and arrow and shot a rabbit all presumably in one day, in a 1 hr show. Modern B/p has a polish and graphite added to prevent clumping and reduce static ignition.

flmason · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2009, 11:21:06 AM »

Quote from: blhof on September 17, 2009, 03:16:55 PM

Saw a show a long time ago, before the current survival shows, the guy was a survival expert, who had studied the native American ways. He was in Alaska and picked up some rocks, made an arrowhead, stripped some bark for binding, got a relatively straight limb and used the arrowhead to straighten and notch it. He walked along, building a bow and arrow and shot a rabbit all presumably in one day, in a 1 hr show. Modern B/p has a polish and graphite added to prevent clumping and reduce static ignition.

Have made somewhat of a study of bow making for that reason. Want to be able to do exactly that. With nothing but my clothes, go out and survive.

The one thing I'm iffy on is making the bowstring. I've read the stuff about using plant cordage, bark, etc. Guess I won't believe it until I try it.

In an urban setting, there's lots of things that could work. I've tried bread bags, notebook paper and even paper towels, for example. (All three will make a cordage of sorts.)

Finding and processing something like flax seems a little more involved though.

Were I not stuck in such a suburban area I'd go try it. But I suspect folks would get upset if I started taking foliage for my experiments. Besides, 99% of the foliage here is irrigated with recycled water. Probably a health hazard to go playing around in it.

But... plenty of bunnies, LOL! They congregate wherever the irrigation is. Would probably get arrested for taking a shot at one though, LOL!

Victor3 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2009, 07:58:58 PM »

I've done some experimentation on this. I used Duco cement mixed 1/1 with acetone for the binder. Haven't tried to make a pellet yet, but it does hold together well and seems to burn great with no additional residue when compared to straight BP. I found that the clumps stay together better if used with powder that has no graphite coating. I'm planning on making a teflon mould to form pellets.

Just a note on Duco - It's a nitrocellulose-based adhesive that those in the pyro community use for gluing all kinds of stuff because it burns up nicely.

good shot · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2009, 03:46:35 AM »

Great info on the Duco cement, it has been around forever, will probably be around forever.
Burns clean, that's a good property for this project.
I have read that some paper cartridges were made from paper pulp, we can do that at home with a blender or processor and create any form we wish to create including a small cup.
Perhaps a bit of Duco on the end if it helps ignition, perhaps add a bit of potassium nitrate to the slurry for the same purpose.
Thanks for the contribution!

flmason · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2009, 05:58:47 PM »

Does the nitrocellulose in the Duco carry any sort of increased pressure risk?

Victor3 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 02, 2009, 10:28:35 PM »

Quote from: flmason on October 02, 2009, 05:58:47 PM

Does the nitrocellulose in the Duco carry any sort of increased pressure risk?

Thanks for mentioning that (Safety 1st).

I suspect that it might increase pressure a bit. Being that the percentage of NC in the charge will be small though, it probably won't be an issue.

I'm planning to use the pellets in a small cannon I have, which has an overbuilt (heavy wall) barrel. Probably not advisable to use them in a standard BP rifle or handgun without doing some research on how NC will react in conjunction with BP.

good shot · « **Reply #17 on:** November 01, 2009, 02:42:30 AM »

Hi all!
I have reached the point of making a small mandrel from a dowel to make small cone shapes, putting in powder, felt wad and round ball, not too bad a project, goes pretty good.
Not as historically correct as some peoples but should speed the process in the field.
Will be trying some thicker papers, Rizla Blue is pretty thin.
Helps turn College Football Saturday into productive time. Hawkeyes sure start slow, they are hard on the heart. I like what Coach Ferentz said about how the computer ranks them higher then the AP and coaches poll, "the computer hasn't seen us play".
Best wishes all

NickSS · « **Reply #18 on:** November 03, 2009, 08:46:28 PM »

During the Civil war one company developed ammo with compressed black powder glued to the bullet. The powder was coated with shellac to water proof it. I do not know the details of compressing it but it looked like it was compressed in a tapered round bottom die probably by machine. I myself use paper cartridges made from cigarette paper. I have a tapered dowel stick that I wrap the paper around and glue the edge and fold the bottom over and glue. I then dump a powder charge in and follow it with a wonder wad and a round ball that has glue wiped on it. I put six in a wood block ball up and tape a strip of paper over the openings. These blocks fit nicely into a civil war style leather pistol cartridge box that hold two blocks. These are my quick reloads when hunting with my remington revolver.

goodshot · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2009, 03:06:38 AM »

Thanks!
Indeed great minds think alike! Sounds like what we are doing is very similar.
I have been using two papers glued together, folded in half from the left side to the right , then folded back over to the left to leave a band of multiple layers of paper between the ball and wonder wad and the single thickness end of the powder chamber.
When glueing the two papers together I place the top paper at an angle to the bottom one, corner to corner on the right, bottom left corner of the top to middle of the bottom paper on the left.
This helps match the angle of the mandrel I made.
Thanks for your help,

goodshot · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2009, 08:44:17 AM »

a .223 case makes an acceptable mandrel also,
Best wishes,

goodshot · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2009, 07:08:07 AM »

test drove a few of the cartridges and am quite pleased, hope it works put for anyone who wishes to try it.