1/5 scale No 1 field carriage?

[Forward Observer]

Is anybody here familiar with the 1/5 scale "non-firing" M1841 cannon that is made by Hanwei/Paul Chen.   Hanwei is an Asian manufacturer specializing in mostly reproduction Samurai and Medieval swords.    Several on-line dealers who deal in such reproduction swords and armor also carry this one cannon model---in prices ranging from about $420 to $520.  Even Dixie Gunworks and Cannonmania list it in their on-line catalog although the latter shows it out of stock.   A couple of dealers even carry a matching limber.

Just type in "model 1841" in Google, and you'll get dozens of hits.

Here are a couple of stock pictures:


All of the listings I found state that these are non-firing models, and I have no idea if the steel barrel that comes with the model could ever be made to fire.  Of course the originals barrels were bronze anyway, which they fail to mention.

However, the carriage is supposedly made entirely with oak and steel and to my eyes it looks like a fairly accurate representation of a No 1 carriage.    At least one seller mentioned that dimensions might vary, so that could be an issue is they vary much model to model.

Now I'm thinking that if one could find a source, the carriage should easily handle a shootable barrel.   One could go with the M1841, the 3 in. ordinance, or say a 10 pdr. Parrott.

Even if the included barrel is totally useless----$450 for  a sturdy, fairly accurate 1/5th scale No. 1 carriage that could be used with a shootable barrel might just be a pretty good deal.
 
I haven't seen much available in 1/5 scale, so this would be pointless if one couldn't  find a ready source of barrels to fit.   


Thoughts?

 

[KABAR2]

Most likely the barrel is pot metal and plated, if it is really oak than I suppose it would make a good platform for a shooter,

I would want to see one in person before spending that kind of money.

[Forward Observer]

According to the copy that accompanies the adverts, the barrels are also steel.  However, they just indicate that the model is non-firing.   The barrel might not be bored all the way or it might have a hole drilled laterally through the mid section for a rod that functions as the trunnions like the little souvenir brass and iron cannons that are sold
at museum gift shops.

I agree that it would be best to inspect one before spending that kind of cash.    I just happen to be going to Memphis in the next few weeks and I may just plan a side trip to Dixie Gunworks and check one out.   It's always a fun place to visit anyway, but I think I'll call them just to make sure they still have them in stock.

The next question would be---if they are suitable, which maker would be my best choice to contact for a 1/5 scale barrel--possibly custom to fit the eccentricities of these particular carriages?

Cheers

[Cannoneer]

Forward Observer,

Yes, Ive seen these Chinese made models offered for sale at different sites. I think its very probable that the descriptions of the barrel being steel that has been blued are accurate; but what kind of steel was used? Not all types of steel make for a safe gun barrel, and as you said, all the advertisements stress the point that these cannons are meant for display, not for firing. This may not mean all that much, because many others make the same statement for liability reasons.
There is an outfit called the "Canadian Cannon Company" that is offering these same cannons for sale on an e-auction site for $600.00. My first thought when I saw this was that they may have purchased a number of these models then bored the barrel fully, (perhaps the barrels are originally only partially bored) and then marked the price up a buck & a half or so. The reason I think this may be the case is because this company only manufactures functional cannons, as far as I know. I've been meaning to send this company a question about these guns, and your post spurred me to do so today. I asked a few questions about the functionality of the barrel; so lets give them a few days, and see if they respond.
BTW, there was an iron 6-pdr M 1836 that looked very much like the latter bronze 1841 model, except it was a little thicker, and the CSA also made an iron 6-pdr that had an almost identical profile as the M 1841.

[seacoastartillery]

     Say fellows, look like you guys found a pretty nice field gun.  With a replacement steel/iron tube in .75" cal. you could shoot .730" balls which would go out with some authority and, as Boom J pointed out you could call it a Model 1836.  Mike and I found one on a trip to New Hampshire two years ago.  The pics below show how similar the Iron M 1836 is to the Bronze M 1841.  The lines on both of these are just about perfect and we believe they are the best looking field gun tubes ever made in the United States.

Best wishes Forward Observer, we believe you have a project worth pursuing.

Mike and Tracy











Now you know where in New Hampshire we found this beautiful iron field gun.

[thelionspaw]

Be aware that I've sampled "oak" from China and it was light-weight stuff. It was like comparing Luan mahogany with Honduran mahogany.

If it looks like a duck; walks like a duck; quacks like a duck; it still might not be a duck.

rc

[seacoastartillery]

     "Richard the Wise" makes a very good point about Asian wood.  We would absolutely inspect the carriage in person at Dixie Gun Works if at all possible.  A dismounting of the tube to judge the "Heft" of the carriage would probably tell you what you need to know, because oak is heavy and a substitute is, most likely, not.  Also, there is the quality of the hardware to be considered. 

     Forward Observer,   You could still make a very nice looking gun this way, but the cautionary warning, 'Caveat Emptor' certainly applies here.  However, as  much as we like the appearance of a bronze tube, the possibility of putting a strong steel tube on it for target shooting, and still be historically correct in appearance, for a Model 1836, is a great bonus.  You have, in fact, the best of both worlds here.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

[Forward Observer]

Thanks for the input everybody.   I am aware that a lot of wooden Asian items are made with some form of Tilia--more commonly referred to a basswood.   
Basswood has almost no grain--plus being light and soft, it is easy to work--that's why it is so popular as a carving material and for cheap Asian import items.   

In fact I have a 1/6 scale French Gribeauval 12 pdr made by a Japanese company, that was produced to go with 1/6 scale action figures    They are all made entirely of wood and steel, however all the steel parts are fairly light gauge, and even though the wood is painted, it is simply too light to be anything other than something like basswood.  Fortunately I did not spend a lot since I got it on EBay,  but I acquired it and a similar model thinking they might work as foundations as a shooters.   They are quite attractive models, but I quickly realized after inspection that they simply would not stand up to the stress of live fire. 

While the M1841 and it's iron copies will certainly do,  I kind of like the idea of subbing a Parrott or a 3 inch ordinance.   We'll see if Boom J turns up any useful info with his
inquiry, and I will eventually report back what I find after my trip to Dixie. 

Cheers 

P.S.   I forgot to add that I am told that the Hanwei/Paul Chen company produces swords that are made with top notch quality wood and steel.  As such they will function as real weapons and not just decorators.  That's what led me to believe that these models made by the same people might just be as sturdy as they appear.

[dan610324]

but they specify it as oak wood , so I hope that its really oak and not basswood
if you are going to look at one of them , try to press your thumb nail into the wood and see if it does any mark in it . you could try that at home first at some different kind of wood that you can get a "feeling" for the hardness of different woods
I also read that they among others also use swedish high quality steel for some of their blades
who knows , maybe it is a quality model even if its made in china , but Im a bit suspishious 

[thelionspaw]

Yo! Guys...... allow me to reiterate:  For whatever reason, the "OAK" I have gotten from China, looks like oak grain but hefts and splits like garbage.  It was brittle. Basswood (and I have a load of it) has more strength and lacks the obvious grain of oak.

I'm not a dendrologist, so I am not familiar with oriental oak species. The oak being shipped from China may have originated in Pennsylvania as an acorn but processing through alchemy, may have altered it into balsa.

The Swedish thumb nail test may work but probably will not if the piece is sealed.

Yuh pays yuh money and yuh takes yuh chances.

Richard The Wood Butcher

[Cannoneer]

I got an email from the gent that owns CCC, which states that the barrel is bored all the way, (.75 cal.) and that the vent is drilled to meet the chamber.
This response just made me more curious, so I called CCC, and spoke to the owner. 
The scale models he's selling are the same Hanwei M1841 6-pounders that are advertised on other outlets.
The barrels come from China fully bored, but the vent is not drilled, so CCC drills them, and ups the price.
The barrels (says he) are made of "good quality steel," and are safe to fire, they are finished (not blued)with some kind of blue chrome plating which he says looks excellent.
All the hardware on the carriage is made of steel that is polished and blued.
He thinks the carriage is made of oak, and is built very solidly.
Now, I'm not exaggerating this mans description of this piece, if anything I'm toning it down; according to him its one of the finest manufactured miniatures he's seen; but then again, his intention is to sell them.

[Forward Observer]

Thanks BoomJ, that sounds like pretty good news, and if true, it would make no sense to pay CCC that much extra for simply drilling the vent.    I may just take a chance and order one.   

Of course I am still interested in having a 1/5 scale parrott or 3 inch ordinance rifle barrel as alternates for the same carriage.   Does anybody make such an animal or offer custom work in such a scale at an affordable price?

Cheers

[Double D]

Have you talked to our sponsors?

[Cannoneer]

Forward Observer,

I'm in agreement with you, if I were getting this cannon I would certainly rather put close to $200.00 to other uses, rather than pay it to someone for drilling the vent on it.

Are you still going to Dixie Gun Works to give it a once over, (I would, if it was relatively close)?
If you are, please let me know.

[Forward Observer]

Have you talked to our sponsors?

Well, no, but I have visited their site, and while I can admire and drool over the products they are offering or plan on offering, I get the idea their product is more for the discrimating buyer and therefore way beyond my current budget.

Boom J.

My trip to Tennessee is still a few weeks off, and I'm not certian I will have the extra time to get up to Dixie and back.    A side trip to Dixie will add about 180 miles to my 250 mile round trip to Memphis.    Still,  I haven't visited Dixie's store in over 5 years, and have wanted an excuse to do so for some time.  You just never know what they will have setting on the floor with close out prices (sometimes even cannons--scale and full size).   

However,  based on the info you were given, I'm leaning towards taking a chance and ordering one of these cannons on-line without going to Dixie first.   Of course nothing is certain, but think I've got the bug to have one--especially at the price.

Cheers   

                     

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

I think you should contact some of the sponsors.  You're not looking at a particularly large barrel, and I think their pricing would be much closer to your budget than you may realize (based on the cost of this setup).

[Double D]

Yes indeed check with the sponsors...I think will be very happy with what they can provide you.

[BoomLover]

Gentleman, to add my 2 cents to the question about these 1/5 scale cannons, I have had one in my hand, the barrel is, to me, a quality barrel, plenty heavy enough to fire, and just as important, the wood work and metal work of the carriage was very nice, sound, solid, well crafted. The barrel was not drilled thru, just started, not finished, and Hanwei/Paul Chen's workmanship on these is as quality as his blades. I have investigated his blades, and found them to be excellent! This is not an endorsment, however, If I had the money, ($450) I would not hesitate to buy one and finish drilling the vent to make it shootable.BoomLover 

[thelionspaw]

'nuff said. Gofuhvit!