Author Topic: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!  (Read 1889 times)

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Offline KABAR2

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scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« on: September 09, 2009, 12:44:58 AM »
Apparently something mariners have known for centuries was not good enough for scientists

they needed to prove that the sunken 19th century war ship had been sunk by cannon balls

the fact that it was sitting at the bottom of the sea meant little..... the fact that it had cannon balls

on board and holes in the hull proved nothing......... they had to prove it...........




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31930571/ns/technology_and_science-science/ns/technology_and_science-science/from/ET
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline carronader

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 01:24:06 AM »
 Cost and Complexity..................all they have to do is let members of this forum know where the target is and oil and water,tyre pressures will be getting checked all over the country. But then that wouldn't be under Scientific / Laboratory conditions would it.  what a joke!
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Victor3

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 02:00:13 AM »
 LOL! Reading the headline, I figured that story must have originated here...

http://www.theonion.com/content/index
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 02:38:57 AM »
One can only conclude the big slow 45ACP in fact may inflict more useful damage than a fast light 357 mag ?  ;D ;D ??? ::) ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Parrott-Cannon

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 02:57:57 AM »
Without a doubt tax payer dollars
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. (Thomas Jefferson)

Offline cannonmn

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 03:23:53 AM »
I know enuf about that business to know that any model or simulation has to be validated, or it is just someone's theory.  Who knows whether what he did can be scaled up or down accurately, unless the model is validated with some real, full-scale data, and lacking any mention of such, I would not trust his work.  Specifically, if he didn't have a single "cannonball" bounce off the target such as we know happened to "old ironsides" at least once, his model is probably wrong.   I'd like to know more about his project, I'll bet I can shoot it full of holes.

Offline Soot

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 07:22:11 AM »
I learned to sail when I was 10 years old, and I figured out real quick all on my own the #1 rule was " KEEP THE OCEAN ON THE OUTSIDE!"
I must be a genius.

Offline carronader

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 07:45:14 AM »
 Shootall  man after my own heart............45 acp   S&W mod.25 (2) best damn handgun in God's creation. 9's are for girlies. Only pistol I ever shot when I went to our range. (ex. range ) now bulldozed. 25 probably now part of a Spanish washing machine. :'( 
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 08:29:38 AM »
What a surprise - a weapon that was used for centuries that actually worked!  Scale models don't work really good unless the materials are scalable, and wood is nonhomogeneous.  Cannonmn is right, that this "science" isn't really copasetic, though I'd love to get funding to sit around building things and shooting holes in them.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 08:34:08 AM »
One can only conclude the big slow 45ACP in fact may inflict more useful damage than a fast light 357 mag ?  ;D ;D ??? ::) ;)

Yeah, thats what Col. Hatcher concluded way back when, & why I carry a .45 ACP. If I could afford the .50ACP I would carry it.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline subdjoe

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 09:51:16 AM »
Scientists discover Water is Wet!  Stay tuned for news on the supposition that fire is hot.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 10:21:18 AM »
Yeah, well, while it might have been a lot more cost-effective for these Israeli researchers to have just lain out the shekels that were needed to buy this book; think of all the fun they would have missed out on.

The Mammoth Book of Eyewitness Naval Battles 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2009, 10:51:53 AM »
Without a doubt tax payer dollars.

Without doubt, that was part of this equation.  And maybe the professors wanted to get in some black powder cannon firing at someone else's expense, also.  Probably not enough empty desert there to just take their artillery out and have a cannon shoot.   ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline RocklockI

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2009, 11:44:39 AM »
so under lab conditions , a ship could sink .....?

does that mean that ships were only sunk when lab conditions were present ?

i wonder what happens when lab conditions are studied by a carronade, and its ball ?


 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline mechanic

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2009, 11:58:26 AM »
Lets see.....cannon were used to destroy masonry buildings 4 feet or more thick.....can they go through wood?  Who woulda' thunk it?
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline torpedoman

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2009, 01:36:08 PM »
maybe we should apply for a GOVERNMENT GRANT to do further study they may have been wrong.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline RocklockI

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2009, 06:02:41 PM »
by sheer dumb luck my order from Fox industries arrived today .

50 more shiney new steel balls , 42.8mm dia. (golf ball) .

so it would be a ...small...swivel gun .

so what ever the math works out to ..........i would LOVE to shoot at somebodies scaled down ship . with my gun being a 24-32 lber .....

someone would of course , have to pay me me to do this ugly bidness . powder and ball come dear these days .....!

if anyone has something that needs sinking and is willing to pay , i would be honored to serve you .  8)



   
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 01:04:09 PM »
the israeli scientists must be really smart to come to that conclusion  ;D
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline GGaskill

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 05:47:49 PM »
the Israeli scientists must be really smart to come to that conclusion.

Smarter than the people who decide who to give the grants to.   ;D ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline JeffG

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 09:00:15 AM »
Shake your head slowly side-to-side,  say slowly...."Good Lord."
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff

Offline RocklockI

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 09:06:44 AM »
it would take a hell of alot of them ! thousands and thousands .

mostly it's water that sinks the ship ........ ;)
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 01:31:58 PM »
I think it was a stupid test.
As others said the wood is not scalable.
And while I think the cannon could accidentaly sink a ship I do not think that was the goal in most sailing ship naval battles.
You shot off the rigging and the rudder and moved on to the next ship of thier line and came back to the disabled ship to capture it.
Ships and cannons were expensive and capturing damaged ships, and fixing them were cheaper than building a new one.
If cannon did not sink ships something else would have been used in the age of steel to damage and sink ships from 1905 on.
Now if it took more ammo to shoot the rudder off and the holes in the hull allowed in more water than they could get out.....
Blubbb Blubb Blub.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 05:48:36 PM »
I think it was a stupid test.
As others said the wood is not scalable.
And while I think the cannon could accidentaly sink a ship I do not think that was the goal in most sailing ship naval battles.
You shot off the rigging and the rudder and moved on to the next ship of thier line and came back to the disabled ship to capture it.
Ships and cannons were expensive and capturing damaged ships, and fixing them were cheaper than building a new one.
If cannon did not sink ships something else would have been used in the age of steel to damage and sink ships from 1905 on.
Now if it took more ammo to shoot the rudder off and the holes in the hull allowed in more water than they could get out.....
Blubbb Blubb Blub.



Tactics of the era did vary dis-masting or shooting off a rudder may have been used but most iron was placed into the hull
mainly the gun deck you could ill afford to continue to trade shots with your opponent and expect to have a ship in fighting shape,
clear the gun deck would be the rule of the day. silence as many of his guns and you stand a better chance of dominating.
cross his stern and fire as you bare you may get the rudder but more importantly you can clear the gun deck and keep your
own ship intact in the process.
While it may be true that fighting ships and their crews wanted prizes because that is how they earned a better pay scale
if push came to shove you better believe they were willing to sink their enemy, if the odds are against you winning  disabling
may not be the best option you are leaving a gun platform that can still do you damage, hole her and keep the crew occupied with
keeping her afloat than trying to continue to trade shots with you as you engage another ship,  ships of the line and line actions
were fewer than smaller actions between frigates and these one on one actions could become life and death struggles.
One other aspect of warfare during the time of wooden ships is the fire ship,
 it's sole intent is to destroy enemy ships you are not worried about prizes you want to win.

Another item you do not address is ship and shore battery actions, the fort is there to protect against invasion it has little use for
trying to capture a prize it's goal is to destroy the enemy ships that present themselves that's why hot shot was invented.
much more efficient way of destroying a fleet than holing a ship though both were done.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Rickk

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2009, 04:14:26 AM »
I was noticing that when I drive my garden tractor around the lawn, the grass gets shorter.

It has happened more than once, so I think there might be a connection.

It seems to get shorter even faster when I have a beer in my hand while I am driving around the lawn.

I wonder if this is all a coincidence or if maybe I am on to something?

Does anyone know what form I need to fill out to get a few million to study this observation in more detail?

I'll write a paragraph or two on my findings of course after the money is all gone  ;)

Rick

Offline KABAR2

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2009, 06:11:54 AM »
Rickk,

First let's get back on topic, first you will have to see if you can get your lawn tractor to float, perhaps a raft made from those beer cans will do it.......

then see if you can sink it by shooting your cannon at it. I am sure there is grant money somewhere for this project.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline RocklockI

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2009, 06:53:23 AM »
Rickk , what you have been experiencing is is a time space continume .....the mower is obviusly  IN motion right ....?
the yard loses part of it's mass as you move . covering distance to reduce mass , so the faster you go the less time and more mass is reduced in a shorter period of time .

stick with me now .........if we subsatute beer for "speed of light" or C in the equation . e=m c squared

we find that while  the distance is the same and the time is the same ,the illution of time passes quickly while riding your relative insterment , and sipping on time preception alteraqration fuel.

That the yard actualy shrinks in size in a pulsing manner . the mower gets more powerfull , and you are done sooner because of the beer ........ and the smaller yard and the more powerfull mower .

if you float your 'boat(mower)' on empy beer cans and it sinkkkkkssss . well you may find yourself

riding that mower up the greasy grass at the battle of Little Bighorn .....at exactly the time and year you would LEAST enjoy .     get the point ? ;D :) ;) ;D   there's an outside chance that you will be invisable if you had consumed enough time spinner.

or in jail nowadays .........these things are still mystries .

eta you mayhave been the one they were counting on to tow their gattling guns to ol george in time .

or CANNONS .


 

   
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Rickk

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2009, 03:05:15 PM »
It is now intuitively obvious that a mere few million isn't gunna cut it.

Anyone know how how many zeros in a gazillion?

 ::)


"Cannon.. Cannon... must say the word Cannon now and then "

"Install swivel cannon on hood of garden tractor, to evaluate it's effect on the equation"

Said it

Offline RocklockI

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2009, 03:38:44 PM »
Garden tractor door gunner ! :o
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 03:41:08 PM »


"Install swivel cannon on hood of garden tractor, to evaluate it's effect on the equation"

Said it

It will only effect equation if you have moles in your lawn & Swivel cannon is used on anti mole patol.

but if this becomes public knowledge you may have PETA added to the equation also, so the equation could read

sc-m=p2 divided by the original equation listed earlier in this thread. remember never use a multiplier when PETA becomes involved.  
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline SODAMAN

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Re: scientists say cannon balls really could sink ships!
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2009, 10:18:56 AM »
If 99% of people with rectal cancer used toilet paper. Toilet paper must cause rectal cancer !