1st round - pointed bullet in 30-30 tubular magazine?

[Land_Owner]

Winchester 94 and Marlin 336 users:

What is your experience with 30-30 bullets (.308 diameter) when the first chambered round is pointed and the remainder in the magazine are flat or round nose?

Is this a BAD IDEA?

[Graybeard]

Why in the world would you want to load two different types in your gun? Have you tested them to be sure they hit to same POI at all ranges you'd be using them hunting? I seriously doubt they would. Just pick the bullet you want to use and stick with it. The old .30-30 is a fine round for deer and hogs and within its range limits you really gain nothing from pointed bullets over the flat or round nose that are proven safe in the tubular mags.

[mcwoodduck]

If you are going to load pointy bullets for a leaver gun.
I know what everyone says.  But I would load them and just load a single round into the mag and have a two shot.
unless you are planning on being a cropping officer for deer or pigs two rounds should be more than enough for a single deer or pig in the 100 to 150 yards of the 30-30 with 150 grain pointed soft point rounds.

[LaOtto222]

I have wondered at times if the "do not use pointy bullets in a straight line magazine" is really a problem. It takes a sharp blow to denonate a primer. I have seen fairly deep primer strikes that do not go off.  I am not the adventurous type to try it out however. I can always use a different gun for bit longer shot. Unless you are going to be shooting the 30-30 at it's extreme edge, the traditional bullets should work fine. If you feel the need, you have two choices. You can buy or load up 30-30 Leverevolution ammo or you can load two rounds as mcwoodduck suggests. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[stimpylu32]

I've done this test before , the 2nd round never hit were the 1st did , even when using the same bullet weight and powder charge .

And as for the pointed bullets in a tube mag , there was a video some years ago on one of the ammo sites that showed a Win 94 coming apart from the rounds cascading as the recoil set them off in a chain reaction , ( VERY NASTY ) it was done in a test vice and with an automatic trigger switch for safety .

stimpy

[mcwoodduck]

LaOtto,
I too wondered if the spring would hold the round nose to primer and with your typical lead soft point I do not think it would be a problem but you get that one in a billion light primer and everything lines up and ...... problem.
Better safe than sorry.

[1marty]

I have a 50 year old 94 and shot those 30-30 lever revolution pointed bullets. The recoil was severe and the bullets shot much worse than the win 150 gr flat nose. The flat nose shoot fine.

[krod47nw]

If you are going to load pointy bullets for a leaver gun.
I know what everyone says.  But I would load them and just load a single round into the mag and have a two shot.
unless you are planning on being a cropping officer for deer or pigs two rounds should be more than enough for a single deer or pig in the 100 to 150 yards of the 30-30 with 150 grain pointed soft point rounds.

+1...  This is your best bet for pointed bullets.  One in the chamber and one in the magazine.

Kevin

[Dee]

I have a 51 year old Model 94 Winchester that was bought new, and a box of 170 grain flat noses were the first rounds ran thru it, mainly cause the dealer threw them in. After that I switched to 150s and never looked back. 100 to 150 yards you say is optimum range for the 3030? BS! I can plug a deer or hog at 270 yards and call the shot. Deer ribs, ain't hard to punch thru, and if you want to check energy at that range (270yds) shoot a couple of milk jugs filled with water at that range. One with a 3030 150 grain loaded at 2400fps, and one with say a 243. Results are the same. Can't tell the jugs apart at the end of the test. Gun writers have caused more frustration to hunters than deer ticks, and hot opening days combined. If someone gives them a column to writer everyone thinks their an expert. Wanna know what really works? As a hunter. An old hunter. He knows.
2 pointed bullets? Leverevolution ammo? Gimmicks! You do your job, and the 3030 will do it's job.
By the way. I still don't need a scope. I use a peep sight.

[Hooker]

If you want to load up some pointy bullets for your lever gun Hornady now offers the Leverevolution ammo . You can stuff the magazine full of these pointy projectiles with no worries. They are suppose to also start offering the same bullet so you can load your own.
In my 30/30 I prefer hard cast flat nose bullets in my experience they out perform jacketed bullets on deer and hogs.

Pat

[res45]

Bullet

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=468031

Load Data

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/ftx_reloading_data.php

[PA-Joe]

Will the pointed round feed from the tube mag ok, or is it too long to feed correctly?

[LaOtto222]

Leverevolution ammo will feed fine. If you hand load, just make sure your overall length is not over recommended COAL in the loading manuals. This is more than likely move the bullet back further from the lands than a blunter style.

[BBF]

If you are going to load "pointy" I would use those with a plastic tip of some sort. On the other hand even the Rem Corelokts are not all that pointy either.

[Casull]

I have a 51 year old Model 94 Winchester that was bought new, and a box of 170 grain flat noses were the first rounds ran thru it, mainly cause the dealer threw them in. After that I switched to 150s and never looked back. 100 to 150 yards you say is optimum range for the 3030? BS! I can plug a deer or hog at 270 yards and call the shot. Deer ribs, ain't hard to punch thru, and if you want to check energy at that range (270yds) shoot a couple of milk jugs filled with water at that range. One with a 3030 150 grain loaded at 2400fps, and one with say a 243. Results are the same. Can't tell the jugs apart at the end of the test. Gun writers have caused more frustration to hunters than deer ticks, and hot opening days combined. If someone gives them a column to writer everyone thinks their an expert. Wanna know what really works? As a hunter. An old hunter. He knows.
2 pointed bullets? Leverevolution ammo? Gimmicks! You do your job, and the 3030 will do it's job.
By the way. I still don't need a scope. I use a peep sight.

Dee, I don't know about your water jug test, but according to Remington's ballistic charts, the 150 grain 30-30 at 270 yards is traveling at about 1400 fps and carrying about 650 ft lbs of energy, while the 95 grain .243 is traveling at over 2400 fps and carrying about 1200 ft lbs.  Not even close.

[epanzella]

In theory one in the tube and one in chamber would work, but it's a dangerous practice. If you were carrying a 300 win mag you wouldn't carry 350 Rem Mag rounds in the same pocket, would you? They're perfectly safe OUT of THE GUN but what if you put one in by accident? What if you load one spitzter in the mag and then absentmindedly load another one? Is this worth to have pointed bullets in a 30-30? It's like putting two carbs on a street sweeper.

[Dee]

I have a 51 year old Model 94 Winchester that was bought new, and a box of 170 grain flat noses were the first rounds ran thru it, mainly cause the dealer threw them in. After that I switched to 150s and never looked back. 100 to 150 yards you say is optimum range for the 3030? BS! I can plug a deer or hog at 270 yards and call the shot. Deer ribs, ain't hard to punch thru, and if you want to check energy at that range (270yds) shoot a couple of milk jugs filled with water at that range. One with a 3030 150 grain loaded at 2400fps, and one with say a 243. Results are the same. Can't tell the jugs apart at the end of the test. Gun writers have caused more frustration to hunters than deer ticks, and hot opening days combined. If someone gives them a column to writer everyone thinks their an expert. Wanna know what really works? As a hunter. An old hunter. He knows.
2 pointed bullets? Leverevolution ammo? Gimmicks! You do your job, and the 3030 will do it's job.
By the way. I still don't need a scope. I use a peep sight.

Dee, I don't know about your water jug test, but according to Remington's ballistic charts, the 150 grain 30-30 at 270 yards is traveling at about 1400 fps and carrying about 650 ft lbs of energy, while the 95 grain .243 is traveling at over 2400 fps and carrying about 1200 ft lbs.  Not even close.

Casull, I am not the least impressed with gun rag writers or energy charts. For 18 of my 20 year L.E. career I taught classes in hydro-static shock effect, and kinetic energy in ballistics, and have been questioned in court to the facts of hollow points in shootings. I read the crap, studied the crap, taught the crap, and abandoned the crap. I have owned a half dozen 243s over the last 60 years not to mention all the 3006s, 2506s, 300win mags, 4570s, 223s, 22-250s, and on and on. I am a reformed gun nut, (well maybe), that made my living with guns, and that learned thru the expulsion of thousands of dollars of gotta have guns only to end up right back where I started.
If you hit what your aimin at, where your aimin, a 3030 is enough far beyond the range of what the gun rag writers publish, and what most youngsters think after they have read the bs.
It's like some numb nut saying a 3030 is not enough for elk, while he strings his bow to go elk hunting. It doesn't even make sense except in his mind.
It's like writing a guy a ticket for not wearing his seat belt in his Mercedes, and waving at someone passing by on a motorcycle while you write it. Just because someone wrote something down in a magazine, or a reloading manual doesn't make it do the actual job any better.
It's like someone talking about "knock down power" in a rifle, handgun or shotgun. Any one of the firearms can cause a "fall down", but a car or truck is what has "knock down power". Shoot someone with a shotgun loaded with #4 buck magnum load, and he will "fall down". Run into him with a 75 Buick, and it will knock him down.
It's like all these new "super duper L.E.-SELF DEFENSE rounds" that folks are paying outrageous prices for to carry in their sidearms, when the 125 grain jacketed hollow point in a 357 magnum revolver STILL, holds all one shot stopping records in FBI officer involved shooting stats, and has for over 40 years. And no the 357sig WILL NOT stack up to the REAL 357mag. Check the stats.
What depts SHOULD HAVE INVESTED IN, was not new guns but, more ammo and training.

[j104wd]

I have a bolt action 30-30 (savage 340) I played with the spitzer bullets alot when I first got it but the 30-30 is so slow compared to the velocities of a 308 or 30-06 that I found the bullets did not expand much if at all. I went back to the 150 gr flat point and never looked back. fact is I learned not to try and make a 308 out of a 30-30. its a great cartridge and for 97% of the deer I have shot it would have worked fine.

[LONGTOM]

While I don't use the pointy bullets in my 30/30 or my 307 model 94s I do use 150gr silvertip round nose bullets in both and have for years.
They say they can go off also but I don't recall any doing so over the years that the ammo companys were offering them in factory ammo.


LONGTOM

[Tommyt]

While I don't use the pointy bullets in my 30/30 or my 307 model 94s I do use 150gr silvertip round nose bullets in both and have for years.
LONGTOM

Those 150's are the best Killer Bullets I've ever used in the 30-30
I've spun hogs with them
Power Kill Medicine

Tommyt

[Val]

With the short effective range of a 30-30 there is little difference in accuracy between a pointy bullet and a flat nose. Why take a needless risk?

[Casull]

Casull, I am not the least impressed with gun rag writers

Dee, who said anything about gun rag writers?  That was info from a gun and ammunition manufacturer (unless you're saying Remington doesn't know anything about the ammo it makes).

It's like some numb nut saying a 3030 is not enough for elk, while he strings his bow to go elk hunting.

They kill in two completely different manners.  You've obviously have never seen just how fast a well placed arrow kills.

If you hit what your aimin at, where your aimin, a 3030 is enough far beyond the range of what the gun rag writers publish, and what most youngsters think after they have read the bs.
It's like some numb nut saying a 3030 is not enough for elk, while he strings his bow to go elk hunting. It doesn't even make sense except in his mind.
It's like writing a guy a ticket for not wearing his seat belt in his Mercedes, and waving at someone passing by on a motorcycle while you write it. Just because someone wrote something down in a magazine, or a reloading manual doesn't make it do the actual job any better.
It's like someone talking about "knock down power" in a rifle, handgun or shotgun. Any one of the firearms can cause a "fall down", but a car or truck is what has "knock down power". Shoot someone with a shotgun loaded with #4 buck magnum load, and he will "fall down". Run into him with a 75 Buick, and it will knock him down.
It's like all these new "super duper L.E.-SELF DEFENSE rounds" that folks are paying outrageous prices for to carry in their sidearms, when the 125 grain jacketed hollow point in a 357 magnum revolver STILL, holds all one shot stopping records in FBI officer involved shooting stats, and has for over 40 years. And no the 357sig WILL NOT stack up to the REAL 357mag. Check the stats.
What depts SHOULD HAVE INVESTED IN, was not new guns but, more ammo and training.

None of this really has anything to do with your original post saying that the 30-30 had as much power at 270 yards as does the .243 because they both blow up a water jug, or my response thereto.  You may not believe in ballistics charts, but that doesn't make them wrong.  You need to look at your water jug test and understand that it doesn't hold water.  Saying that since both calibers blow up the jug the same they have the same power is flawed.  That would be like determining that dropping a 5 lb weight from 4 feet has the same energy (power, whatever you want to call it) as dropping a 50 lb weight from 4 feet, because they both crush a walnut to the same degree.  It's flawed reasoning.

[Autorim]

I will put in my 2 cents worth. IMHO the 30-30 carbine is basically a short range rifle with moderate power and will be better served with a flat nose bullet that we were using back in the 50's - still works.

If you want to use pointed bullets I recommend a firearm other than a lever action. Go to a single shot or bolt action and use any bullet you want.

I will maintain that any animal falls down when the muscles cease to receive coherent signals from the brain. This can be caused by a shot to the brain or spinal column - or - any shot that causes profuse bleeding and robs the brain of blood. Bullet, arrow or spear makes little difference as long as it reaches the vitals.

I find it interesting that African hunters use solids for the most dangerous game, yet non expanding bullets are not considered good for deer hunting. I know for a fact that many deer here in Arkansas have been killed with surplus ammo in 30-06, .303 British, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, 6.5 x 55 and other military ammo because that is what was available and affordable at the time. We were just country boys and didn't know any better, but it worked and the deer still got hung up and skinned.

[Lloyd Smale]

thanks but ill stick to corelocks. There completely capable of taking game out past 200 yards if your enough of a rifleman to make hits out there. Two years ago my buddy made a kill on an antelope with an off hand shot at 260 yards with an open sighted winchester. the antelope folded in its tracks. Ive killed enough game with a 3030 using corelocks and other bullets to know it works. No need for any hi tech crap that manufactures come out with to boost ammo sales. The 3030 had been doing just fine for well over 80 years.

[calvon]

Murphy's Law: If something can go wrong, it will.

There's nothing you can measure that can be gained by loading a pointed bullet ahead of a magazine full of flat noses.

To make it work, you need to carry both kinds with you and MAKE CERTAIN you keep them separated. One pointed one in the magazine can set off the whole magazine. It isn't worth it and my advice is DON'T DO IT!

If something can go wrong, it will.

[JustaShooter]

Murphy's Law: If something can go wrong, it will.

Murphy was an optimist. - O'Toole's Commentary on Murphy's Law

Just a Shooter

[Oldshooter]

I've shot deer with my 35 rem with the gummi tipped hornadys and they dropped dead. I've seen deer shot with the gummies and they dropped dead. Seen hogs shot with 44 mag gummies and they dropped dead. Will shoot hogs and deer with 44 mag gummies and they will probably drop dead! All that with 3 or 4 shots left in the tube. Its a gimmick I can live with!

That being said, Everyones perception is their reality! mine is I like the gummy tipped hornadys!

[Dee]

[quote author=Casull link=topic=182475.msg1098892180#msg1098892180 date=125294239

None of this really has anything to do with your original post saying that the 30-30 had as much power at 270 yards as does the .243 because they both blow up a water jug, or my response thereto.  You may not believe in ballistics charts, but that doesn't make them wrong.  You need to look at your water jug test and understand that it doesn't hold water.  Saying that since both calibers blow up the jug the same they have the same power is flawed.  That would be like determining that dropping a 5 lb weight from 4 feet has the same energy (power, whatever you want to call it) as dropping a 50 lb weight from 4 feet, because they both crush a walnut to the same degree.  It's flawed reasoning.
[/quote]

The water jugs were never called a TEST except by you. It is a demonstration concerning "range and results" from two types of rifle cartridges. The results are the same. I'm done.

[Casull]

The water jugs were never called a TEST except by you. It is a demonstration concerning "range and results" from two types of rifle cartridges. The results are the same. I'm done.

The results are the same, but the cartridges are not.  Your demonstration is no different than head shooting a rabbit with a .44 mag and then a .460 Weatherby and noting that the results are the same (rabbit with big hole in its head).  You were the one that said

if you want to check energy at that range (270yds) shoot a couple of milk jugs filled with water at that range. One with a 3030 150 grain loaded at 2400fps, and one with say a 243. Results are the same.

Sure sounds like you were trying to say they both had the same energy.  All your "demonstration" shows us is that the 30-30 has enough energy at 270 yards to kill a milk jug.   

[Dee]

The water jugs were never called a TEST except by you. It is a demonstration concerning "range and results" from two types of rifle cartridges. The results are the same. I'm done.

The results are the same, but the cartridges are not.  Your demonstration is no different than head shooting a rabbit with a .44 mag and then a .460 Weatherby and noting that the results are the same (rabbit with big hole in its head).  You were the one that said

if you want to check energy at that range (270yds) shoot a couple of milk jugs filled with water at that range. One with a 3030 150 grain loaded at 2400fps, and one with say a 243. Results are the same.

Sure sounds like you were trying to say they both had the same energy.  All your "demonstration" shows us is that the 30-30 has enough energy at 270 yards to kill a milk jug.   

Whatever.