Author Topic: I was informed today that my cannon is a firework (Read 1514 times)

Spuddy · « **on:** September 10, 2009, 01:49:20 PM »

I went to purchase more black powder this afternoon, from a supplier in Maine, and he asked me what I shoot. I told him a 1/3 scale replica civil war cannon. He told me that in Maine shooting anything less than a full size cannon is considered a firework and fireworks are illlegal in Maine. I bought the five pounds anyway. Now I have to confirm if what he said is true. Stay tuned, this could get ugly.

Spuddy · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2009, 01:53:36 PM »

Here is a link to the Maine Statue.

http://www.maine.gov/dps/fmo/inspections/fireworks.html

RocklockI · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:09:22 PM »

you mean your .50 cal rifle didnt you spuddy ? sorry i did not look at the rule .

Spuddy · « **Reply #3 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:15:28 PM »

Here is the actual language that is in law.

§221-A. Definitions
As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following terms have the following meanings. [1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW).]

1. Commissioner. "Commissioner" means the Commissioner of Public Safety or a designee.
[ 1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW) .]
2. Department. "Department" means the Department of Public Safety.
[ 1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW) .]
3. Display. "Display" means an entertainment feature where the public or a private group is admitted or permitted to view the display or discharge of fireworks or special effects. "Display" includes a special effects display.
[ 1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW) .]
4. Fireworks. "Fireworks" means any:
A. Combustible or explosive composition or substance; [1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW).]
B. Combination of explosive compositions or substances; [1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW).]
C. Other article that was prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation, including blank cartridges or toy cannons in which explosives are used, the type of balloon that requires fire underneath to propel it, firecrackers, torpedoes, skyrockets, roman candles, bombs, rockets, wheels, colored fires, fountains, mines, serpents and other fireworks of like construction; [1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW).]
D. Fireworks containing any explosive or flammable compound; or [1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW).]
E. Tablets or other device containing any explosive substance or flammable compound. [1999, c. 671, §2 (NEW).]
The term "fireworks" does not include toy pistols, toy canes, toy guns or other devices in which paper caps or plastic caps containing 25/100 grains or less of explosive compound are used if they are constructed so that the hand can not come in contact with the cap when in place for the explosion, toy pistol paper caps or plastic caps that contain less than 20/100 grains of explosive mixture or sparklers that do not contain magnesium chlorates or perchlorates.

RocklockI · « **Reply #4 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:27:16 PM »

i didnt see cannons on the list , and as you shoot your cannon for accuracy and not for noise and or visual effects you could be good right ?

flame ,smoke ,loud blasts and flash are all simple and (horrible) side efects of the target shooting proccess .

aim small miss small .

Spuddy I JUST GOT 50 NEW shinny balls .

maybe colo. could use some potato help ....?

bigger , fatter , browner, better ,colordo taters ! git some ! thats pretty good !!!!

come on out spuddy we can have a humongus potato farm and cannon range . would the potato digging machine mind turning up a 12 lb iron ball ?

we need help with our taters here spuddy ........this is dual use land spud ! we could get a grant from uncle sugar . we could use "both sides of the dirt !" potatos AND usable cannon range above .....

green green green .

seriously that sucks if you cant /shouldnt shoot your gun .......

if it becomes nessecary a place 'could be found' where your cannon will be safe .

ETA i didnt catch that toy cannon part , but like the aeroplane designer said in Flight of the Phenix (friggin burned bird) a toy is something that is wound up and circles around on the floor . iirc ...?

you are a historian who has no intrest in toy anythings . research pure and simple .

sure id stake my freedom on that advise !

intoodeep · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:33:54 PM »

Quote from: Spuddy on September 10, 2009, 02:15:28 PM

the type of balloon that requires fire underneath to propel it,

So, does this mean Hot Air balloons are fireworks too???

I know. I'll refrain.....

KABAR2 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:34:49 PM »

I would call them and get it clarified what the supplier who is not a lawyer is going on is "TOY CANNON"

if you are not firing blanks but firing a Projo it would not be considered a toy (I'm not a lawyer either)

Spuddy · « **Reply #7 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:38:10 PM »

maybe colo. could use some potato help ....?

Three years ago the Colorado version of the potato board asked me if I wanted to visit because they were looing for a new director.

Hot air balloons may also qualify.

Spuddy · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:39:33 PM »

Quote from: KABAR2 on September 10, 2009, 02:34:49 PM

I would call them and get it clarified what the supplier who is not a lawyer is going on is "TOY CANNON"

if you are not firing blanks but firing a Projo it would not be considered a toy (I'm not a lawyer either)

I am in the State capital tomorrow and have some laywer friends who I am meeting with, I plan on having this conversation with them.

RocklockI · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:44:53 PM »

11.1/2 oz is what the steel fox ball weighs . thats over half a pound . there were plenty of 1/2 lb cannons .

now parrot may have never made one .....IM nOT A LAWYER EITHER ......

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:49:09 PM »

We don't offer legal advice on this board. But what I read in the fire regulations, if your cannon shoots nothing but blanks, they are right it's a firework. But if it shots a projectile it is not a toy cannon any more it's a firearm. Look here:

The Criminal Law

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/17-A/title17-Asec2.html

12-A. "Firearm" means any weapon, whether loaded or unloaded, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive and includes any such weapon commonly referred to as a pistol, revolver, rifle, gun, machine gun or shotgun. Any weapon which can be made into a firearm by the insertion of a firing pin, or other similar thing, or by repair, is a firearm.

The Conservation laws further define you cannon

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/12/title12sec10001.html

42-A. Muzzleloader. "Muzzleloader" means a firearm that:
A. Is capable of being loaded only through the muzzle; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]
B. Is ignited by a matchlock, wheel lock, flintlock or caplock, including an in-line caplock or shotgun or rifle primer mechanism; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]
C. Has a rifled or smooth-bored barrel or barrels, each barrel capable of firing only a single charge; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]
D. Propels a ball, bullet or charge of shot; and [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]

The correct answer comes only from Maine Attorney General's Office. If you have any doubt contact an attorney.

Spuddy · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:55:08 PM »

Quote from: Double D on September 10, 2009, 02:49:09 PM

If your cannon shoots nothing but blanks, they are right. But if it shots a projectile it is not a toy cannon any more it's a firearm. Look here:

The Criminal Law

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/17-A/title17-Asec2.html

12-A. "Firearm" means any weapon, whether loaded or unloaded, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive and includes any such weapon commonly referred to as a pistol, revolver, rifle, gun, machine gun or shotgun. Any weapon which can be made into a firearm by the insertion of a firing pin, or other similar thing, or by repair, is a firearm.

The Conservation laws further define you cannon

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/12/title12sec10001.html

42-A. Muzzleloader. "Muzzleloader" means a firearm that:
A. Is capable of being loaded only through the muzzle; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]
B. Is ignited by a matchlock, wheel lock, flintlock or caplock, including an in-line caplock or shotgun or rifle primer mechanism; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]
C. Has a rifled or smooth-bored barrel or barrels, each barrel capable of firing only a single charge; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]
D. Propels a ball, bullet or charge of shot; and [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]

Thank you for your thought process. These definitions more clearly define what I have. I will be able to sleep better tonight. I am going to check with some lawyer friends of mine tomorrow. Thanks for looking deeper.

carronader · « **Reply #12 on:** September 11, 2009, 12:23:03 AM »

Good work DD..........I've been on the wrong end of a confused interpretation of old laws and it's not funny.

Victor3 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 11, 2009, 02:07:41 AM »

"B. Is ignited by a matchlock, wheel lock, flintlock or caplock, including an in-line caplock or shotgun or rifle primer mechanism; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]"

Hmmm... Nothing about fuse.

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** September 11, 2009, 03:00:49 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on September 11, 2009, 02:07:41 AM

"B. Is ignited by a matchlock, wheel lock, flintlock or caplock, including an in-line caplock or shotgun or rifle primer mechanism; [2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §8 (NEW); 2003, c. 655, Pt. B, §422 (AFF).]"

Hmmm... Nothing about fuse.

Just means he would have to have one of those ignition systems to hunt ducks...This definition comes from the hunting regualtions.

thelionspaw · « **Reply #15 on:** September 11, 2009, 04:29:25 AM »

Amazing! Define, "toy" for me. "Something intended for amusement rather than practical use".

O.K.. Use a projectile and a target. It is not a toy. Use a blank to make noise. It is not a toy if you are starting an event.

It becomes a no-win situation if they want to pin your ears back.

Yesterday's news had a man in Massachusetts arrested for using a pocket recorder. The charge is, "Illegal Wire Tapping" and an additional charge of, "Possession of an illegal device".

Twelve states have this same law on the books, making it illegal to possess a cell phone if it can take images and or record.

Who started Homeland S....... anyway?

We are at their mercy as cannon owners. We are neither fish nor fowl and have to jump through burning hoops to prove our legality.

"Hot air balloon"? "Fireworks"? Get real!!! Looks like I am going to have to buy an electric stove.

Protect freedom of speech; so we'll know whom the idiots are.

rc Have gun; will travel

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** September 11, 2009, 06:50:14 AM »

A classic example why we try to avoid legal discussions on the board. There already is enough nonsense on the internet without us adding to it.

Richard that guy with the digital recorder was involved in a dispute with another person and he clandestinely record the conversation without the other parties knowledge or permission and got caught. How outraged would be if you were the guy getting recorded and didn't know it. You would scream bloody murder and you know it!

Those wiretap laws were put on the books years ago and were aimed at preventing law enforcement for eavesdropping on your private conversations without first securing a warrant. With the advance in technology, the devices that formerly were prohibitively expensive and extreme complex are now commonly and cheaply available. It's the misuse of the technology that's Illegal.

Go back and read that post again about the 12 states that prohibit cell phones that take pictures and record. http://expertpages.com/news/taping_conversations.htm

Twelve states require, under most circumstances, the consent of all parties to a conversation. Those jurisdictions are California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington. Be aware that you will sometimes hear these referred to inaccurately as “two-party consent” laws. If there are more than two people involved in the conversation, all must consent to the taping.
Twelve states have laws outlawing the use of hidden cameras in private places: Alabama, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, South Dakota, and Utah.

They require consent to record and the prohibit hidden camera in private places.

This part of our discussion really has nothing to do with cannons, so lets just stick to that.

As far as a cannon intended to shot projectiles shooting a blank becoming a toy, it's no more a toy than a 12 guage shot gun changing into a toy because it shoots a blank cartridge.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 11, 2009, 07:04:04 AM »

Sometimes the laws are made that make no sense & sometime the enforcment makes no sense.... I was at a re-enactment event that was at a Conn. state park you could hunt with shot guns but not rifles on park property so the park ranger would not let re-enactors using muzzle loading rifles participate in the event.... only muskets! we were firing BLANKS! & NOT HUNTING!

thelionspaw · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2009, 09:24:43 AM »

Not to beat a dead horse Double D but the point is that cannon owners are subject to arbitrary laws and the prejudicial interpretation of same.

The article illustrates that 38 out of 50 states recognize this as nonsense.

I have been taped numerous times and it's part of the game of life.

The man in question, was attempting to protect himself by recording. There are times when we cannon owners will have to protect ourselves.

Through experience, I also know what constitutes a wire tap. I also know what a toy is and what a fire work is and what a dangerous device is. I also know that Massachussetts requires an examination for a license to fire a cannon. I believe it is an Explosive-Demolition License. Which state is going to be next? Thank goodness I don't own a cell phone or I'd be in deep do-do.

My citing the article may have been perceived as obtuse, misplaced and arbitrary by some but the point I was attempting to reinforce is that as, "cannon owners", we are meat on the judicial table of life and that arbitrary enforcement is all around us. We are no longer safe in our daily lives, just believing in God and riding a white horse.

Circle the wagons. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Richard "I've walked the walk"

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2009, 02:52:01 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, when I read a thread like this I don't know whether to laugh, or cry; if some of those statutes are taken at face value, then a person signaling the start of a race at a track and field event could possibly be convicted of a felony, and the same would hold true of a Sea Scout signaling the beginning of a yachting venture with a Winchester 10 guage signal gun.

RocklockI · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2009, 03:25:27 PM »

that is so that when they want you , you are already guilty

..........'sir , have you ever 'heard' a cannon ?

NO ? "hummmm , have you ever heard OF a cannon ?" .....

'well , i guess i heard the "1812 overture" once ,

"...... LIAR ! YOU have not ONLY heard OF a cannon YOU HAVE HEARD A DAMN CANNON TOO !!!!" you' re just who we are looking for ..... 'WE think you may have even SEEN a cannon .........'

"to the farm with him ....."

Victor3 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2009, 10:21:34 PM »

Quote from: RocklockI on September 11, 2009, 03:25:27 PM

that is so that when they want you , you are already guilty ..........'sir , have you ever 'heard' a cannon ?

NO ? "hummmm , have you ever heard OF a cannon ?" .....

'well , i guess i heard the "1812 overture" once ,

"...... LIAR ! YOU have not ONLY heard OF a cannon YOU HAVE HEARD A DAMN CANNON TOO !!!!" you' re just who we are looking for ..... 'WE think you may have even SEEN a cannon .........'

"to the farm with him ....."

Ever see some of the items on the search warrant for the Waco disaster?

"...machinery would include, but not limited to metal lathes and milling machines..."

"...various chemicals, including but not limited to black powder..."

"...suitable casings of unknown description which, when assembled, would be classified as destructive devices..."

Thank God I've got none of that stuff layin' around here.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 12, 2009, 04:09:17 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on September 11, 2009, 10:21:34 PM

Quote from: RocklockI on September 11, 2009, 03:25:27 PM
that is so that when they want you , you are already guilty

Ever see some of the items on the search warrant for the Waco disaster?

"...machinery would include, but not limited to metal lathes and milling machines..."

"...various chemicals, including but not limited to black powder..."

"...suitable casings of unknown description which, when assembled, would be classified as destructive devices..."

Thank God I've got none of that stuff layin' around here.

There have been warrants issued with the search to include "Gun smithing tools" Files, screw drivers, drill bits.....

the average home owner may have enough tools and not one gun it the house to be arrested because he has tools!

by the way did you know in Colorado Springs Colorado there is a law still on the books that states it is illegal to shoot jack rabbits from the street car........

Colorado Springs dosn't have street cars anymore..........

nematode · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2009, 02:13:29 PM »

This is a pretty deep and serious discussion and it is making me wonder whether or not I am allowed to fire my black powder gannon, when it arrives, without a projectile. I'm in Delaware and have never needed to be familiar with the laws distinguishing firecrackers or fireworks from toys and firearms. I know that since I was a boy, firecrackers and fireworks have been illegal in Delaware. Can someone give me an idea where I can begin to search for the law concerning my cannon? I do not intend to shoot projectiles but only use as a signal cannon for holiday celebrations.

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2009, 02:47:57 PM »

The absolute correct legal answer comes only from a the State Attorney General, County Attorney and or City Attorney, in the jurisdiction where you live.

If you Google Delaware Statues you will be able research there for piece of mind. Search terms like firearm, gun, cannon, fireworks.

If you are not at ease with that write the State attorney General a letter asking for a written interpretation.

Bottom line it is your obligation to know the law where you live, before not after.

nematode · « **Reply #25 on:** September 12, 2009, 02:51:19 PM »

Thanks for advice DD - I am endeavoring to make this determination "before". Thanks again.

thelionspaw · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:01:09 AM »

Skip77,

google it for a start.

If you receive a positive from the State AG, have it laminated to carry and file a copy.

Next, you have County, Township, Municipality and Village snares and pit-falls to consider; e.g. zoning, noise, pollution, etc..

Don't forget the stone-deaf, retired neighbour who believes you go to the wrong church or doesn't like the colour of your car, etc., etc..

Of course, being in Delaware, you could row off shore, run-up a British flag and fire your cannon. The last time that happened, the entire country prosecuted

Damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead!

If they ever come for me, I'm going to say, "My wife did it".

rc

KABAR2 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:17:18 AM »

This whole thing reminds me of a book that came out during the Bi-Centenial about a fellow who wanted to cast cannon to help the cause,

it was a series of letters back and forth between him and the bureaucrats in the end the revolution was over and he was bankrupt..........

nematode · « **Reply #28 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:19:16 AM »

That's funny Lionspaw and good information too - thanks a lot. I sent the Delaware Attorney General an email yesterday, asking about firearm ordinance for the state and advised that I live in Lewes. Following response from them, I will look into County and City law - thanks for the tip. You are right, I could paddle out and pop the cork. Lewes was bombarded by the British and also by French pirate ships during colonial times. The town tries to capitalize from these facts with tourist attractions like the "Cannonball House" that has a cannonball embedded in it's foundation - now converted to a souvenier shop. Also, a handful of British cannons were excavated from sunken ships off our coast, way back around turn of the century and before. Those cannons have been displayed outside, on the grounds at public boat dock in Lewes Canal, ever since. In fact, now that I think about it, a good photo of those cannons would be an appropriate avatar for me here at GBO - I'll work on it!

thelionspaw · « **Reply #29 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:51:41 AM »

http://www.first-team.us/journals/div_arty/fep_saga/fepndx01.html

Allen: Here it is. I posted it last July 4th.

rc