30-06 Case Head Separation

[epanzella]

I loaded up some Berger 210 VLDH's in front of 51.5 gr IMR 4350 w Federal 215 (mag) primers in my '06. The cases were FL Sized Lapua that I had loaded only once before. Gun is TC Encore.
I fired 3 rounds which went into 1 1/2 inches @ 200yds. The bad news is round two and three shed their case heads like they were cut with a laser. The primers showed healthy but not excessive pressure. The cases slid effortly out of the chamber with just a 30 cal bronze brush. I checked the headspace on the unfired rounds and they were perfect. I've had few CH Seps over my 30 yrs of loading and they all could be traced back to headspace. The Bergers were seated tight to the rifling and I used mag primers (not my first choice but all I could get even now). Would this combination cause pressures necessary to separate the casehead despite the primer looking OK and the forward part of the case extracting easily? My first time using this load. I'm going to pull 'em & back 'em but any thoughts would be appreciated.
__________________
Ed P

[SteveHawaii]

Were the Lapua's annealed?  That may be a factor.

[epanzella]

Were the Lapua's annealed?  That may be a factor.

They are annealed out of the box but you can plainly see that the annealing stops just below the shoulder. The cases split just forward of the case head. This is only my second firing on this lot which I purchased new.
Ed P

[JustaShooter]

Were the Lapua's annealed?  That may be a factor.

They are annealed out of the box but you can plainly see that the annealing stops just below the shoulder. The cases split just forward of the case head.

Annealing should stop just below the shoulder, if you anneal the case head it gets too soft.  Since you are dealing with a head separation rather than neck splits, annealing isn't a factor.

I would suspect a headspace issue, it can happen easily with Encores.  Have you checked to see what your barrel to frame gap is, and more importantly the barrel to firing pin bushing gap?  To get a complete picture, you will then want to remove the barrel, remove the extractor, and drop in one of your cases (after you've pulled the bullet), and measure the depth or height of the case below or above the end of the barrel.  With that measurement and the firing pin bushing to barrel gap measurement, you can tell how much excess headspace you have.  Ideally, it should be about 0.001", and you will want to adjust your sizing die to give you that 0.001". 

By the way, I've heard it said that the case head should never be below the surface of the barrel even if you have a bushing to barrel gap of 0.001 or less.  Not sure if that is so, or why that would be, but that's what I've heard...

Just a Shooter

[epanzella]

Were the Lapua's annealed?  That may be a factor.

They are annealed out of the box but you can plainly see that the annealing stops just below the shoulder. The cases split just forward of the case head.

Annealing should stop just below the shoulder, if you anneal the case head it gets too soft.  Since you are dealing with a head separation rather than neck splits, annealing isn't a factor.

I would suspect a headspace issue, it can happen easily with Encores.  Have you checked to see what your barrel to frame gap is, and more importantly the barrel to firing pin bushing gap?  To get a complete picture, you will then want to remove the barrel, remove the extractor, and drop in one of your cases (after you've pulled the bullet), and measure the depth or height of the case below or above the end of the barrel.  With that measurement and the firing pin bushing to barrel gap measurement, you can tell how much excess headspace you have.  Ideally, it should be about 0.001", and you will want to adjust your sizing die to give you that 0.001". 

By the way, I've heard it said that the case head should never be below the surface of the barrel even if you have a bushing to barrel gap of 0.001 or less.  Not sure if that is so, or why that would be, but that's what I've heard...

Just a Shooter

My barrel gap is .003.  Cases full length sized stand proud of the barrel by .002 and I'm using a .001 firing bin busing shim. The action (with sized case chambered) will close on a .001 feeler but it won't pull out. I have hundreds of rounds thru the gun with this setup but only recently (one firing ago) got the Lapua cases and this is the first time with this load. I'm wondering if there's something about the Encore that will cause the barrel to move away from the breechblock under high pressure that would mimic a headspace problem. Thanks, Ed 

[stimpylu32]

Ed

Any of the break open style rifles can have an excessive headspace problem due to overly high pressures causing the frame & barrel to flex and expand , the fact that you had the bullet into the lands leads me to beleave that your pressures were way above were they should have been .

The only other option is that you got ahold of a batch of bad brass , being that it was Lapua , those odds are remote with their QC .

stimpy

[Dave in WV]

If faced with your problem I would load all of my new brass with a youth load and the bullet touching the lands when chambered. When I resized the brass I would back the sizing die out one full turn, smoke the neck of a fired case, and turn the die in until the soot was wiped off of the neck to just barely above the neck/shoulder junction. That way you don't bump the shoulder back. I wouldn't seat the bullet out to touch the lands in the load you listed.

[Grumulkin]

I loaded up some Berger 210 VLDH's in front of 51.5 gr IMR 4350 w Federal 215 (mag) primers in my '06. The cases were FL Sized Lapua that I had loaded only once before. Gun is TC Encore.
I fired 3 rounds which went into 1 1/2 inches @ 200yds. The bad news is round two and three shed their case heads like they were cut with a laser. The primers showed healthy but not excessive pressure. The cases slid effortly out of the chamber with just a 30 cal bronze brush. I checked the headspace on the unfired rounds and they were perfect. I've had few CH Seps over my 30 yrs of loading and they all could be traced back to headspace. The Bergers were seated tight to the rifling and I used mag primers (not my first choice but all I could get even now). Would this combination cause pressures necessary to separate the casehead despite the primer looking OK and the forward part of the case extracting easily? My first time using this load. I'm going to pull 'em & back 'em but any thoughts would be appreciated.
__________________
Ed P

In Encore overloads, one of the first signs is sticky extraction and then a pierced or leaking primer.  If you weren't having sticky extraction with your loads then the pressure was not excessive.

Case head separations will be caused by excessive head space, excessive sizing, well used brass and/or soft brass.  All these things will cause the brass to stretch and where it stretches and thins the most is near the web where the head separates.  Since you sound like you're used to loading successfully for this cartridges without problems in the past, I'm going to blame the brass.

[epanzella]

Ed

Any of the break open style rifles can have an excessive headspace problem due to overly high pressures causing the frame & barrel to flex and expand , the fact that you had the bullet into the lands leads me to beleave that your pressures were way above were they should have been .

The only other option is that you got ahold of a batch of bad brass , being that it was Lapua , those odds are remote with their QC .

stimpy

Stimpy,
It's lookin' like the pressure opened the frame gap. I hope it was just temporary. The Lapua cases were the most consistant I have ever measured as far as wall thickness, weight and LOA. I'm confident the problem was mine and not the cases. I'll be backing this load off.
Thanks,
Ed

[epanzella]

I loaded up some Berger 210 VLDH's in front of 51.5 gr IMR 4350 w Federal 215 (mag) primers in my '06. The cases were FL Sized Lapua that I had loaded only once before. Gun is TC Encore.
I fired 3 rounds which went into 1 1/2 inches @ 200yds. The bad news is round two and three shed their case heads like they were cut with a laser. The primers showed healthy but not excessive pressure. The cases slid effortly out of the chamber with just a 30 cal bronze brush. I checked the headspace on the unfired rounds and they were perfect. I've had few CH Seps over my 30 yrs of loading and they all could be traced back to headspace. The Bergers were seated tight to the rifling and I used mag primers (not my first choice but all I could get even now). Would this combination cause pressures necessary to separate the casehead despite the primer looking OK and the forward part of the case extracting easily? My first time using this load. I'm going to pull 'em & back 'em but any thoughts would be appreciated.
__________________
Ed P

In Encore overloads, one of the first signs is sticky extraction and then a pierced or leaking primer.  If you weren't having sticky extraction with your loads then the pressure was not excessive.

Case head separations will be caused by excessive head space, excessive sizing, well used brass and/or soft brass.  All these things will cause the brass to stretch and where it stretches and thins the most is near the web where the head separates.  Since you sound like you're used to loading successfully for this cartridges without problems in the past, I'm going to blame the brass.

I've loaded successfully for this gun but never used this load before. The Lupua cases seem to have the best QC of any I've used but may have thicker walls with reduced case capacity meaning more pressure. This along with bullets seated to the rifling and using mag primers do to unavailabity of anything else, may have acted in concert to cause this. The unfired rounds are perfect as far as shoulder loc and headspace but springing of the action may have increased headspace. It's blowing my mind that the separated casing come out so easily. I'll pull the slugs and back em down. Thanks,
Ed

[yooper77]

I loaded up some Berger 210 VLDH's in front of 51.5 gr IMR 4350 w Federal 215 (mag) primers in my '06. The cases were FL Sized Lapua that I had loaded only once before. Gun is TC Encore.
I fired 3 rounds which went into 1 1/2 inches @ 200yds. The bad news is round two and three shed their case heads like they were cut with a laser. The primers showed healthy but not excessive pressure. The cases slid effortly out of the chamber with just a 30 cal bronze brush. I checked the headspace on the unfired rounds and they were perfect. I've had few CH Seps over my 30 yrs of loading and they all could be traced back to headspace. The Bergers were seated tight to the rifling and I used mag primers (not my first choice but all I could get even now). Would this combination cause pressures necessary to separate the casehead despite the primer looking OK and the forward part of the case extracting easily? My first time using this load. I'm going to pull 'em & back 'em but any thoughts would be appreciated.
__________________
Ed P

Excessive pressure!

I feel your selection of Berger 210 VLDH bullet's with 51.5 grains of IMR 4350 & Federal 215 primers with the bullets touching the lands are way over pressure.

Your primers are not a good indication of excessive pressure.  You should always work up your loads up from the minimum before trying the maximum.

yooper77

[epanzella]

Well I just assembled the gun and with a chambered FLS Lapua case it takes substantial effort to drag a .002 feeler out of the action. I estimate clearance at .0015. When I first set up the gun this is the way a .001 feeler would pull out with similar effort. So I gained a single thousandth but this could be just wear and tear or just what didn't spring back from a load that seems to be too hot.  I remeasured with a sized bulletless case and the measurement was the same. Bottom line here is it was NOT headspace so that only leaves pressure, despite primer and extraction indications to the contrary. Of course, another poster mentioned defective Lapua cases and I can't rule out but some sort of pressure spike seem more likely. I've always had good luck with aggressive starting loads and am not the most conservative handloader but am meticulous about assembling rounds and gun setup. Everybody I know backs off starting loads further from max than I do and I guess my luck ran out. Mag primer, bullet seated to rifling, possibly a case with thicker walls (less capacity), and a springy action (compared to a bolt) formed the perfect storm. Why does everything happen together??? I'm still working on my house, I'm helping both my sons work on their houses, fishing is red hot, and now this! Good thing I'm retired or I'd need a rubber room. I'll be pulling the slugs and starting over. Thanks for the help, all.
__________________
ED PANZELLA
"SAVE A COW, EAT A DEER"

[Graybeard]

To assume you can read pressure from primers is pure folly. Generally headspace issues NOT pressure is the cause of case head separations. Do you have enough history with that barrel/frame combo to KNOW it does not have a headspace issue? TCs are notorious for headspace problems and case head separations. I've had several do it and it doesn't require even SAAMI pressure to make it happen.

[JustaShooter]

Since you've got a good handle on the barrel to frame gap and brass sizing, the next most likely cause would be the brass - not necessarily that it is bad, but it could have been stretched too much in the first firing.  That, with a possible high pressure spike from the current loading, could be the reason behind the case head separation.

Do you still have an un-fired piece from that batch?  I'd check headspace with that piece to see how much you stretched them the first firing.  Also, I'd check the once-fired cases after disassembly to see if they are already too far gone and ready to separate.

Just a Shooter

[epanzella]

Since you've got a good handle on the barrel to frame gap and brass sizing, the next most likely cause would be the brass - not necessarily that it is bad, but it could have been stretched too much in the first firing.  That, with a possible high pressure spike from the current loading, could be the reason behind the case head separation.

Do you still have an un-fired piece from that batch?  I'd check headspace with that piece to see how much you stretched them the first firing.  Also, I'd check the once-fired cases after disassembly to see if they are already too far gone and ready to separate.

Just a Shooter

You make a good point here, because I may have done the first firing out of the box without checking headspace. I am certain the headspace was perfect on the second firing (first time with the load in question). If they were short the first time they may be weakened. I have some once fired lapua from the same lot and I'll measure the wall thickness at the case head. I  am certain the headspace was perfect at the second firing, static at least, but don't know if pressure caused the gap to open at the moment of firing and therefore created excessive headspace. I'll post the outcome when I sort it out, Thanks
Ed 

[huntducks]

reset your sizing die back it out a turn your causing a head space problem by pushing your shoulder back to far.

i'll bet if you neck size your once fired brass all case seperation will end, IMO nothing better then fire formed brass then neck size. 

make sure you check the inside of your fired cases for seperation that you can't see from out side take a paper clip and put a small bend at the end insert in case and feel for a crack on the inside.

I have been there done that with a 06 they seem to one of the worst if you don't get your sizer set just right.

[JustaShooter]

i'll bet if you neck size your once fired brass all case seperation will end, IMO nothing better then fire formed brass then neck size. 

For bolt actions that is generally considered the best approach, but with break actions like the Encore it is arguably better to full length size and set the die to bump the shoulder back to where you get .001" headspace.  Otherwise the case tends to stretch on each firing because of the inherent flex in the action (especially with higher pressure cartridges and max or near max loads), leading to vertical stringing of shots as the case head puts inconsistent pressure on the frame, and eventually lockup problems when the case gets too long (which may only take a firing to two with some cartridges).

Just a Shooter

[huntducks]

Just a shooter

Thanks no zero about brake open SS so you learn something new all the time.

[epanzella]

An update on the 30-06 encore case head separation.
Reduced the load from 51.5 gr 4350 to 49.0 gr with Fed 215 (mag) primer - still streched on 1 firing split on 2 (50%)
Returned to 51.5 gr 4350 with fed 210 primer (Large Rifle, finally got some)-still stretched on 1 firing, split on 2 (20%)
Reduced load to 49.0 4350 with fed 210 - still got stretching on 1 firing more stretching on 2 no splits.
Obviously something still wrong.
Checked case bases for concentricity;
New Lapua brass - less than .001 at spot where cases have been splitting
One fired Lapua brass - .006 - .007 runout and visual ridge (49 gr load w/lr primer)
Twice fired Lapua brass - .009-.010 runout and more pronounced ridge (49gr load w/lr primer)
Upon close examination the bulge is not even but goes around 270 degrees of the case. With a 90 deg probe inside the case you can feel that the divot in the interior case wall also goes around 270 degrees. If you take a fired case, rotate it 180 degrees from the position it was fired in and it push it into the camber, it's substantially more difficult to remove than when it was fired.
I then went thru my other brass that was fired in this gun and they ALL have the beginning of the divot forming. I've been loading 30-06 since the 1960's and have thousands of cases. I think this gun has been doing this all along and I didn't notice because I wasn't reusing the same brass enough.  I usually prep and prime a few hundred cases at a time and then go to the next batch. The combination of the magnum primers and starting to use Lapua brass exclusively (more loads in the same brass) made this problem more obvious. Considering the base runout put into the cases by firing, my conclusion is that the chamber is bulged or out of alignment and is the cause of all this. Any body agree?  Disagree? Any ideas? (other than headspace, which is perfect). Just like Obama, I'm all ears.

   
 

[huntswithdogs]

TC replaced one barrel for me because of a similar problem. Contact them and see what they have to say. They may want the whole gun check the head space themselves.
They have been known to have chambers that were cut a little funny.


HWD

[epanzella]

Just an update. After 2 months of emailing and calls, I still haven't spoken to the tech but the receptionist insists he's gonna call me. I gave up and traded the barrel in on a Savage 111 in 30-06. No scope on it yet but fired cases are perfect.
No more TC 4 me. End of story.

[Dill45]

Ah that's always a shame to hear customer services doesn't come through like that.