Author Topic: Gunner's dagger (Read 3239 times)

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **on:** September 16, 2009, 11:50:08 AM »

I know it's not a typical accoutrement we discuss, but I'm interested in obtaining/making a gunner's dagger. Does anyone have any examples of one, or details of the graduations that were traditionally marked on one?

armorer77 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2009, 01:45:50 PM »

I would like to learn more about this also , I make a few knives here and there . Armorer77

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2009, 01:58:25 PM »

The only thing I know of that fits that general concept is a gunner's stiletto, I guess that's what was meant. I'm sure those have been reproduced, don't know if they are still being turned out.

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2009, 01:59:46 PM »

I know I have seen one somewhere. Try Round Shot and Rammers. I will look elsewhere when I get home.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2009, 02:21:04 PM »

What country?
What century?
What branch of service - army - navy?

intoodeep · « **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2009, 02:22:23 PM »

cannonmn is correct in his description. It was called a Gunners Stiletto. The blade is a triangle shape and has gradation marks on it. Normally, the gradations run from 1 to 120 but, I think I recall seeing one that was bit longer and went to 140. I know one of our members has a couple. Maybe he will post some details. If I can located any photos of his on my computer then I will post it.

intoodeep · « **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2009, 03:31:42 PM »

I was unable to find the photos I wanted but, these are from one that sold recently at auction.

RocklockI · « **Reply #7 on:** September 16, 2009, 04:38:48 PM »

there is a very nice one on pg 45 of 'the Visser collection" arms of the netherlands .

it's called a Master gunners quadrant . it's a nice looking dagger that pivots open at the top and a small brass plume that hangs down when the dagger/ pivoted open as a tool .

i could send a pic but it would be to good ".........the faces are provided with scales ,relating the wieght with the dia. of iron ,lead ,and stone shot "

thats what it says ........ looks like a killer sword to boot ....

RocklockI · « **Reply #8 on:** September 16, 2009, 04:51:41 PM »

hope this works ........

german , 3rd quarter of the 16th century

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2009, 05:23:49 PM »

I really didn't have any specific country or time in mind. I also don't know how they were used. It's like looking at a slide rule and trying to figure out how to use it without knowing the purpose for the markings. The Rifle Shoppe has a set of components to build one, and at a gun show I went to last year, one of the booths had one that he tried to sell me after I told him I shoot cannon. I've never built a knife before, but it seems like a neat item to have, which is what brought this on.

RocklockI · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2009, 05:34:12 PM »

a kit at the rifle shop ? thats sounds like something to look into .

Frank46 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2009, 05:37:23 PM »

Didn't ames make a short sword for artillery troops during the civil war?. Frank

KABAR2 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2009, 05:43:57 PM »

Check Newman's collectors encyclopedia of the American Revolution I believe he may have one in there,

I would check but someone borrowed it and ended up stealing it from me.

Some day I'll replace it.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 16, 2009, 05:47:21 PM »

Quote from: Frank46 on September 16, 2009, 05:37:23 PM

Didn't ames make a short sword for artillery troops during the civil war?. Frank

Most of the Roman style short swords were made before the civil war I don't believe they were

popular there was also a artillery saber that had a simple "D" guard.

The Confederate army also had a Roman style short sword produced close to the U.S. pattern,

they also may have imported some from England & Europe.

subdjoe · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2009, 06:43:45 PM »

They were stuck in the vent and used just like a stadia sight. Line up whatever mark you have with whatever front sight you have (maybe just a mark on the muzzle swell) and put it on target.

Re: the gladius style artillery sword. From all I have read they were pretty well loathed. Heavy, too short to really be used as a sword and too long to be used as a fighting knife, not suited to doing anything on the battle field (well, maybe help digging, or chopping smallish branches from trees or logs). In fact, I kind of gather that the cannoneers and gunners pretty much ignored most swords and side arms. I havn't seen many photos with other than officers and maybe an NCO with swords or revolvers.

GGaskill · « **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2009, 08:08:50 PM »

Here is the gunner's stiletto drawing from Harold Peterson's Round Shot and Rammers.

Click the image for a larger version which you may have to click again to enlarge to full size.

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2009, 12:51:01 PM »

Ok, I just did a little searching on stadia sights, and I think I kind of get it. Any tips on marking the lines if I were to make one?

RocklockI · « **Reply #17 on:** September 17, 2009, 01:24:20 PM »

probably get a 'table of fire' for your guns , range evevations to mark it with .....and scale it down if needed .....

i should make one for my parrot ! maybe start with a letter opener ......

cannonmn · « **Reply #18 on:** September 17, 2009, 01:24:42 PM »

If you look at the marks on the old one that was auctioned off recently, the marks correspond to various calibers of cannons. The length from tip of stiletto to a given mark is the bore diameter of a cannon firing a shot weighing the number of pounds marked on the stiletto. Or maybe it was the shot diameter, but that measurement would be useless unless you also had a pair of plain calipers with which to measure shot, then transfer the measurement to the stiletto. At one time I knew which measurement the stiletto gave, believe it or not.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** September 17, 2009, 02:09:07 PM »

This excerpt is from the book, English Civil War Artillery 1642-51 by Chris Henry, Brian Delf.

"Apart from being a highly elaborate form of dagger, the gunner's stiletto was a symbol of office as well as a useful tool. The blade was marked off in a scale that would, when measured at the bore of the gun, give the weight of shot required for that gun."

Just for kicks, this is the entry for gunner's stiletto that somebody deposited on Wikipedia.

"Later the Gunner's stilletto became a tool for clearing cannon-fuse [sic] touch holes. Used like an automotive oil dip stick, they were often scribed with marks indicating levels of powder charges for ranging distance."

cannonmn · « **Reply #20 on:** September 17, 2009, 04:02:49 PM »

Quote

somebody deposited on Wikipedia

That's a good way to put it.

Seems anyone can put anything there. I'm planning to put an entry there on myself, how I am the greatest person who ever lived, etc., then if anyone doesn't believe it, I can call up the entry and show 'em!

I went to a specialist doctor a couple of years ago. First thing he did was sit me down, bring me the huge volume "Who's Who in the World" or something similar, and show me five pages on himself, which of course he paid to have put in there. Then he shows me entries on several US presidents, pointing out that they are only a paragraph each. I should have departed right then.

GGaskill · « **Reply #21 on:** September 17, 2009, 04:06:20 PM »

The blade was marked off in a scale that would, when measured at the bore of the gun, give the weight of shot required for that gun.

That is interesting as it would allow scaling the drawing or photographs. The bore size of a 120 pounder would be about 9.8 inches.

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #22 on:** September 18, 2009, 04:39:13 AM »

Some comments from the #plus613 web site on a very rare and early Gunners Stiletto that was sold last year for many $$$$.

http://www.plus613.com/image/39774

Date: June 28, 2007 09:17PM
“Italian Stiletto dagger, mid to late 17 C. Known as Gunners Stiletto and used to measure the amount of gun powder to be loaded on a cannon by sticking it at the top of the gunpowder pile and measuring its depth. The 10 inches blade is scaled with numbers. The grip is wood with spiral ribs set with round bone insert, steel cross guard and steel pommel. Total length 15 inches."

Max Caliber · « **Reply #23 on:** September 19, 2009, 02:16:16 AM »

Here is a little known but very interesting artillery knife. Would be easy to replicate and with the bronze blade and walnut handle would be very good looking. Anyone have a picture of one?

p51 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2009, 04:24:05 PM »

I’ve always been curious about the use of hand weapons when defending a gun in battle. I could imagine firing your last double canister into oncoming dismounts and then running for your lives, as it happened on a few guns at the stone wall at Gettysburg. But I know Red Legs were a proud breed back in the day and would give up their guns about the same as they’d give up their colors. I know guns were often spiked or sabotaged in other ways prior to being overrun, but I wonder how often a crew would fight over the piece to keep it out of enemy hands, especially if they found themselves close to the enemy without prior warning.
The original manuals I have read over the years were always vague about how to tactically defend a disabled or unloaded gun in the field. In couple of re-enactments in years past I was in where the gun I was crewing appeared to be in danger of being overrun, I have grabbed a handspike to make it look like I was getting ready wallop the first blue coat who got close enough (even though the scenario was clear that they wouldn’t get close enough, but the public didn’t know that). I’ve always wondered how might have happened. I can imagine a crew pulling out handspikes and pistols and getting into an old-fashioned beatdown as someone spikes the tube. But did it ever happen?

GGaskill · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2009, 06:46:03 PM »

As late as the adoption of the M1911, the doctrine was to take cover around the piece and shoot back with your .45. What kind of one hand weapons were the artillerymen armed with?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2009, 12:15:36 AM »

Capt Davis and his two sons went 7 miles from their home in Acton to the battle at the bridge between Lexington and Concord armed with what they had - farm tools. (First officer killed in our revolutionary war.)

Quote from: p51 on October 02, 2009, 04:24:05 PM

I’ve always been curious about the use of hand weapons when defending a gun in battle. I could imagine firing your last double canister into oncoming dismounts and then running for your lives, as it happened on a few guns at the stone wall at Gettysburg. But I know Red Legs were a proud breed back in the day and would give up their guns about the same as they’d give up their colors. I know guns were often spiked or sabotaged in other ways prior to being overrun, but I wonder how often a crew would fight over the piece to keep it out of enemy hands, especially if they found themselves close to the enemy without prior warning.
The original manuals I have read over the years were always vague about how to tactically defend a disabled or unloaded gun in the field. In couple of re-enactments in years past I was in where the gun I was crewing appeared to be in danger of being overrun, I have grabbed a handspike to make it look like I was getting ready wallop the first blue coat who got close enough (even though the scenario was clear that they wouldn’t get close enough, but the public didn’t know that). I’ve always wondered how might have happened. I can imagine a crew pulling out handspikes and pistols and getting into an old-fashioned beatdown as someone spikes the tube. But did it ever happen?

subdjoe · « **Reply #27 on:** October 03, 2009, 05:03:55 AM »

P51, from what I have been able to find from various comments, letters, manuals, etc, if you couldn't limber up and get the gun to safety, you spiked it and got out of Dodge. Cannoneers fought pretty well unencumbered, no pistols, no rifle muskets ready to hand. Come to think of it, in my browsing through photos of CW cannoneers, I don't recall seeing many with the almost universal waist belt with a belt knife. If you are serving a gun quickly all that junk just gets in the way.

Senior NCOs and officers had side arms mainly to shoot horses that were wounded (and because they looked spiffy). There might be a few musketoons for each gun but not much else. I forget which manual I read it in, but one did specify that there were to be two musketoons for each gun. Maybe more to "put the sker" into skirmishers than anything else. Or maybe to help supliment the company mess. It was the job of the horse soldiers or the poor bloody infantry to keep the enemy away from the guns.

It is fun to make a show of grabbing the trail spike or the worm and making as if to charge the (grumble, grumble) Berdans as they advance on your unloaded gun. And have them shoot you so you die gloriously. I would think that if somehow a gun did get over run by surprise that the cannoneers would fight hand to hand, just like any other soldiers. But how often could the surprise be achieved?

thelionspaw · « **Reply #28 on:** October 03, 2009, 10:12:23 AM »

A decorative repro outfit that makes firearms that look as good as actual pieces, along with daggers, swords, polearms, shields, etc.; offers the cannoneers dirk.

Google "decorative reproduction weapons" and see what you get.

navygunner · « **Reply #29 on:** October 04, 2009, 08:40:18 AM »

Naval landing party crews manning boat howitzers went ashore with cutlass and revolver mostly although Admiral Dahlgren's crews went with his bowie styled Dahlgren bayonet. There was one instance in the ORN's were a naval crew beat back reb cav in protecting their gun.