Cheapest way to form a short 223. Thanks. Done.

[briannmilewis]

I have been working on what I am tentatively calling a 223 Remington Short. It is a 223 with a body length of 0.671 and the shoulder and neck of a 223. My design goals are economical powder use (1cc is a bit more than a hornet and 1/3 rd less than a 221 FB); a modern and popular parent cartridge (why I chose the 223 Rem); cheap to form cases, hopefully the shooter will be able to use or modify existing dies, or only purchase one or two new ones.

Starting with a 223 cartridge I will cut it down to about 1" total cartridge length before forming the new neck and shoulder.

Someone told me that I could use a 223 FL die and cut it back .767 so there is just .671 of the body part of the die left and the shoulder and neck are untouched. This would reduce the case diameter a little at the base and that is OK. Then run the short unformed case thru the modified FL resizer and there you have it? I doubt it is that easy.

I have also been told to run the case thru a forming and trim die BEFORE I use the full-length resizing die, as a first step in forming the new shoulder and neck.

Someone also suggested I use 221 Fireball brass as the parent case, as it is thinner than 223 brass...and unfortunately, a whole lot more expensive than 223 brass, which is the opposite to my design goal of "cheap".

Any advice?

[securitysix]

I have been working on what I am tentatively calling a 223 Remington Short. It is a 223 with a body length of 0.671 and the shoulder and neck of a 223. My design goals are economical powder use (1cc is a bit more than a hornet and 1/3 rd less than a 221 FB); a modern and popular parent cartridge (why I chose the 223 Rem); cheap to form cases, hopefully the shooter will be able to use or modify existing dies, or only purchase one or two new ones.

I don't know what the case capacity is for the .22 Johnson Spitfire, but it's a .30 Carbine necked down to fire .22 caliber bullets.  I can't imagine that it wouldn't fall somewhere between the Hornet and the Fireball, but I'm not exactly sure how to measure that.  It may do exactly what you're looking for.  I don't know that .30 Carbine brass is as cheap as .223 brass, but it's not particularly hard to come by, or hasn't been when I've looked, though I haven't checked since the Obamadness started.

Starting with a 223 cartridge I will cut it down to about 1" total cartridge length before forming the new neck and shoulder.

Someone told me that I could use a 223 FL die and cut it back .767 so there is just .671 of the body part of the die left and the shoulder and neck are untouched. This would reduce the case diameter a little at the base and that is OK. Then run the short unformed case thru the modified FL resizer and there you have it? I doubt it is that easy.

I think you're right to doubt.  After you've trimmed the .223 case down that far, you'll have something that's going to be somewhere around .35 caliber.  Going straight from that to .22 caliber can create all sorts of problems.  Can it be done?  Probably.  You're likely to lose quite a bit of brass to splitting or other potential problems, and I'd imagine there'd be some neck turning involved.

You might consider doing an improved version of the .22 Jet (resized .357 Magnum case).  Probably been done, but .357 Magnum brass is cheap and easy to come by.  A magnum version of the same cartridge could be done by necking down .357 Maximum cases (probably been done, too). 

[jedman]

  I have made many wildcats by shortening a die and then forming the " shortened " cartridge on a case with the right head diameter.  What I meen by that is  if you are shortening a bottle necked cartridge  it will have some taper to the body, some more some less. A 223 case at about 1.00 measures about .366 so you would need to form it on a case with a slightly smaller head diameter than that. A 30 carbine might work but it would be on the small size I would think.
The reason I am mentioning this is that you said in your post "This would reduce the case diameter at the base and that is OK "   You cannot reduce the base ( head diameter of a case ) at least not with a standard sizeing die, because the last .200 or so of the case is solid brass and you can't squeeze it any smaller in diameter.
So the only way I could think you could shorten a 223 and then form it on 223 casing would be to .
#1  When you have the sizeing die chucked up in a lathe to shorten it you would need to grind the largest diameter of the shortened die back to the size it was before shortening it and blend that into the taper going to the shoulder.

#2  You would also have to grind / ream the same profile of that taper into the chamber of the barrel you are using.  It is not as tough as it might sound, I did this exact thing to a shortened 270 Win die and formed the shortened " 270 " on 7 X 57 R brass,  ( same head dia. as a 270 Win. ) and it works fine.

   Jedman

[briannmilewis]

Securitysix: Funny you should mention the 357 maximum necked down...I made up a set of drawings for a 223/357 yesterday. If I just started with the regular 357 case, it is 1.290 long, and would have to be trimmed a little when done to meet the 223 neck length requirements of .203, it would retain .900 of body, and the shoulder would have to be al ittle longer than the typical 223 neck.  Seemed like it may be a better place for me to start my wildcatting career, simpler to do, and it does meet all my design requirements.

If I went that route, would I have to get a number of custom forming dies to go from 357 to 224 in stages, and a FL die made? Could I use standard 223 seating and neck sizing dies?

I have looked at the jet and it looks like it shares the same almost non-existent shoulder with the Hornet. Improved version probably straightens the case, and creates a decent shoulder. Also your idea of a magnum of the same using the 357 Max cartridges might be a good opportunity too. I'll do some more research on the Jet.

jedman: Your kind of hands on detail is brilliant. I can see why many wildcatters are also trained or amateur gunsmiths. I have been warned about that. All this info goes in my "keeper" file of course. It is almost as though I should just get someone to make me some sample brass and go from there. I do know one supplier who could do that at a modest price. Then I could load up some dummy rounds and send them off to get the reamer made.

[stimpylu32]

Brian

Here are a couple posts to ponder on this subject .

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,147907.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,132249.0.html

stimpy

[briannmilewis]

Brian

Here are a couple posts to ponder on this subject .

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,147907.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,132249.0.html

stimpy

Well, that sort of took care of any idea to form 22 Rem Jet cases myself.

I did not know you could send brass to Reed to be annealed by machine.

I was thinking of Reed to form up some samples of my 223 Remington Short.

Saved by Stimpy!

Thanks as always.

[securitysix]

Securitysix: Funny you should mention the 357 maximum necked down...I made up a set of drawings for a 223/357 yesterday. If I just started with the regular 357 case, it is 1.290 long, and would have to be trimmed a little when done to meet the 223 neck length requirements of .203, it would retain .900 of body, and the shoulder would have to be al ittle longer than the typical 223 neck.  Seemed like it may be a better place for me to start my wildcatting career, simpler to do, and it does meet all my design requirements.

If I went that route, would I have to get a number of custom forming dies to go from 357 to 224 in stages, and a FL die made? Could I use standard 223 seating and neck sizing dies?

I don't know how many custom dies you'd have to have made, but you could get a .256 Winchester Magnum sizing die for part of the process.  The .256 Winchester Mag is a .357 Magnum necked down to take .25 caliber bullets.  I'm not sure how many, if any, intermediate steps are involved in going from the .357 Magnum to .256 Winchester, but that would get you most of the way from .38 to .22 caliber.  You might need a step between .25 and .22 caliber, too.  For your full length sizing die, I think you'd have to have one custom made.  If you're buying a chambering reamer anyway, you make your dies with the same reamer.  I would have the sizing die cut, then the chamber.

I don't know that you could use a .223 seating die.  The body of the .357 Mag is .379" where the .223 is .376" at the widest part.  The seating die is more open than the sizing die, true, but I don't know by how much and the .223 dies I have are inaccessible at the moment, so I can't take any measurements.  If it will go into the seating die without hitting the sides, the next question is whether or not you have enough adjustment on the seating stem to reach the bullets.  If not, you might have to shave a little off of the bottom of the die, or pick a different die to use for seating.  A .22 Jet seating die would probably be ideal.

I have looked at the jet and it looks like it shares the same almost non-existent shoulder with the Hornet. Improved version probably straightens the case, and creates a decent shoulder. Also your idea of a magnum of the same using the 357 Max cartridges might be a good opportunity too. I'll do some more research on the Jet.

If done right, the same seating die should be able to be used for the .357 Mag and .357 Max based cases by just making the adjustments.  While you're researching the Jet, see what steps it takes to resize from .357 Magnum to .22 Jet.  That should tell you roughly how many forming steps you'll have.

[briannmilewis]

securitysix: Stimpy has a couple of links that basically tells me no to bother getting involved in the nightmare (8 steps) to get 22 Rem Jet case from the 357 Mag. However, I have a drawing of the 256 Win Mag and I know the most you can go down in neck size is 2 calibers in one shot, so 25 to 22 should be doable (243 being the intervening caliber) with a forming and trim die, and a FL die to finish it off. Redding probably has both.

I am pretty sure I am going to ask Reed if they can make a sample of 10 223 Remington Short cases for me, and I will take it form there...and so it goes. Thanks again.

Eeeek! 256 brass is almost $1 per case, and the reports of case life are not so good.

So I am leaning towards 22 Rem Jet, buying the cases: Grafs has them: PRVI <= 27c or Rem <=35c.

I have a lot of Hornet PRVI brass and I find it plenty good enough for the job, maybe I should buy 100 of each to begin with. We shall see...

[securitysix]

If you're buying .22 Jet cases and still want to do an improved version of that cartridge, you can fireform the .22 Jet cases into shape (a la the .22 Hornet - .22 K-Hornet or any other improved case) by firing them in your improved chamber (or firing factory .22 Jet ammo if you can find it).  You'd have to have a FL sizing die made, still, of course, but it would save you a lot of forming steps.

[wackmaster]

When i shorten a case the first thing I do is shorten the die. Then make a few casses (full laingh size them) Then I turn the neck off 2-3 of them. This makes my go- gage and use them to chamber. I have never had to grind dies or chambers to get the brass to chamber.I have shortend ultra mag, 06'  to all kinds of deferent rounds and have never had a problem.

[briannmilewis]

When i shorten a case the first thing I do is shorten the die. Then make a few cases (full length size them) Then I turn the neck off 2-3 of them. This makes my go- gage and use them to chamber. I have never had to grind dies or chambers to get the brass to chamber. I have shortened ultra mag, 06'  to all kinds of deferent rounds and have never had a problem.

Wackmaster - Shortening the die and grinding it to return to the original 223 OD .376 is the first order of business. I have a partner in crime here and he has done it before on a similar case reduction (303 parent and removed .740" of length).

I will keep folks posted on our progress in this thread.

Thanks for all your help.

[skb2706]

Not sure about your proposed project but I can tell you for a fact that I can and do make .221 brass from .223 brass all the time. 98% success with once fired .223 brass. I use nothing more than my set of .221 dies and a mini chop saw with a cut off jig.

[briannmilewis]

Not sure about your proposed project but I can tell you for a fact that I can and do make .221 brass from .223 brass all the time. 98% success with once fired .223 brass. I use nothing more than my set of .221 dies and a mini chop saw with a cut off jig.

skb2706: Do you cut down the brass before you run it through the FL die, or do you gut your FL die and form the shoulder and then cut to size the very long leftover neck?

Do you have to worry about uneven neck thickness?

[Nobade]

I have done that as well, making 221 from 223. A Redding form/trim die makes it easy. Depending on the neck diameter of your chamber you may have to turn the necks on the resulting cases though, since they end up a lot thicker than regular 221 cases.

It's also not hard to make rimless 256 win cases from 223, but you most certainly have to turn the necks on those to make them work.

BTW, why all the fuss about making a short 223? Why not use a 222 with fast powders to get the same effect, and a nice longer neck as well? It'll do the same thing with a lot less hassle.

A 218 mashburn bee works pretty good too, as would the new little FN pistol cartridge...

[skb2706]

No I don't cut the brass first. If you do that you will have to neck down in steps and you would have no idea how much to cut to get a final length. I first anneal the .223 brass, lube it up with Imperial, size it about halfway using " .221 seating die ", size it the rest of the way using a .221 size die. Then I made up a little cutoff jig to put cases in to cut them with a mini cutoff saw. Finish trim them with a case trimmer, chamfer and deburr. I turn the outside of the necks but I have a tight chambered barrel in .221. Its a lot of prep but winter evenings it beats mindless TV. 

[briannmilewis]

skb2706: That is outstanding, thanks for the detailed information. When it is my turn to produce some brass for our project I will be organized, and everyone's input is going to help me avoid a lot of the misery that can befall a project like this.

[wackmaster]

If you don,t grind the die out. Just what part of the case will not fit? After you force the case in the sizer die its the same size as the short stroked reamer!

[briannmilewis]

I have done that as well, making 221 from 223. A Redding form/trim die makes it easy. Depending on the neck diameter of your chamber you may have to turn the necks on the resulting cases though, since they end up a lot thicker than regular 221 cases.

It's also not hard to make rimless 256 win cases from 223, but you most certainly have to turn the necks on those to make them work.

BTW, why all the fuss about making a short 223? Why not use a 222 with fast powders to get the same effect, and a nice longer neck as well? It'll do the same thing with a lot less hassle.

A 218 mashburn bee works pretty good too, as would the new little FN pistol cartridge...

Nobade: The goal is to fit between the 22 Hornet and 221 Fireball, with 1cc case volume, basically doing what the 218 Bee and 22 Rem Jet can do, but with a parent case that uses a modern case design that anyone can create cheap brass from without spending a whole lot of money for forming dies etc. Thanks for your help.

[briannmilewis]

After more discussions with Reeds Ammunition, and taking into account of all the feedback here on GBO, forming a 223 Short cases is not simple nor cheap, and therefore does not follow my design goals in that area.

So thanks, back to the drawing board.

[securitysix]

I just had a thought.  Well, not just.  More like 5 minutes ago, but I had to wait for the headache to subside and the burning smell to go away....

Start forming by running a .222 Remington case (.223 would also work, but I think .222 would be easier to start) through a .218 Bee sizing die.  Trim to 1.387" (or thereabouts, 1.314" should give you closer to one caliber of neck if my arithmetic is right).  The .218 Bee has a 15 degree shoulder, which is not our goal.  .222 and .223 Remington have 23 degree shoulders, which are better, but also not necessarily our goal.  A 30 or 35 degree shoulder would be better, and easy enough to fireform to, I would think.

You'd have to get a custom FL sizing die made for the fireformed cases, but if you're custom cutting a chamber, that's not that big a deal, actually, especially if you're buying the reamer.

Not sure what the case capacity would be, exactly, but you'd effectively wind up with a rimless, slightly shortened (mostly in the neck) .218 Bee Improved.

[briannmilewis]

I just had a thought.  Well, not just.  More like 5 minutes ago, but I had to wait for the headache to subside and the burning smell to go away....

Start forming by running a .222 Remington case (.223 would also work, but I think .222 would be easier to start) through a .218 Bee sizing die.  Trim to 1.387" (or thereabouts, 1.314" should give you closer to one caliber of neck if my arithmetic is right).  The .218 Bee has a 15 degree shoulder, which is not our goal.  .222 and .223 Remington have 23 degree shoulders, which are better, but also not necessarily our goal.  A 30 or 35 degree shoulder would be better, and easy enough to fireform to, I would think.

You'd have to get a custom FL sizing die made for the fireformed cases, but if you're custom cutting a chamber, that's not that big a deal, actually, especially if you're buying the reamer.

Not sure what the case capacity would be, exactly, but you'd effectively wind up with a rimless, slightly shortened (mostly in the neck) .218 Bee Improved.

I have killed my project, however, this is the kind of info worth keeping and playing with, just in case some of the ideas combined with others may produce an alternate path to some process that meets the design goal.