Author Topic: preferred twist of 223 ??? (Read 2577 times)

elsie · « **on:** September 19, 2009, 03:40:34 AM »

Ok guys and gals, there seems to be a lot of opinions and controversy on the twist rate for 223. Seems HR quit making the 1-12 and starting putting 1-9 in all 223. There must have been a reason??? Now which one is the best performing or is that a matter of what bullet weight you want to use. For heavier bullets like over 55 gr. seems that the 1-9 is preferred, while for anything lower it's 1-12. So which one? Anybody have both and can recommend?

knight0334 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:05:59 AM »

It'll depend on what length of bullet you'll be shooting and how fast. Bullet length and velocity determines what twist rate you need.

For typical .223 velocities with sub 55gr bullet lengths the 1:12" works just fine. For bullets greater, the 1:9" is more desirable. If you rechamber the .223 in to something that can really launch bullets faster like a .225Win, .22-250, .220 Swift, you'll want the 1:12 for sure - unless you will be shooting the really heavy(long) bullets.

Heres the general rules:
1. longer bullet = faster twist
2. slower bullet = faster twist
3. shorter bullet = slower twist
5. faster bullet = slower twist

Determine what type of slugs you'll be shooting and at what velocities. For the most part the 1:9" can serve as a reliable candidate for all but the very lightest varmint pills and the super long 90+/- grain bullets.

tykempster · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:12:39 AM »

If I were building a 223 I would get a 1-7 twist. There's a good chance it will shoot the lighter bullets fine and 100% chance of stabilizing 90 grain VLD's or SMK's. A 1-12 twist might shoot the lighter bullets fine, but there's 0% chance of stabilizing high BC bullets.

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #3 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:43:02 AM »

I couldn't even get my 1 in 9 to stabalize a 80g amax. It was keyholing @ 25.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:43:33 AM »

What bullet you want to shoot determines the twist rate. You want as slow a twist rate as will stabilize the desired bullet. When you over stabilize a bullet, what you do is introduce any irregularities in the bullet at the higher spin rate causing a loss of accuracy. A 1 - 14" twist is ideal for .224" 52 grain bullets. That is what they shot in the 222 Remington for years in benchrest. I have 2 - 223's that have a 1 - 14" twist, but I shoot 40 - 50 grain bullets in them. One likes 40 V Max and the other the 50 grain V Max. I am building a 22 BR with a 1 - 8" twist and it is for the heavier bullets. I am thinking 75 - 80 grain. It should throw a 75 grain A Max or an 80 grain Sierra in the 3000 fps vicinity. My H&R has 1 - 12" twist and it has no trouble stabilizing 55 grain bullets. I have not tried any thing over that in it. So the bottom line is get the twist rate for the bullet you are going to shoot. If you are going to error, error on the fast side however. There is nothing you can do with a bullet that is not stabilized. BTW the gentlemen who posted ahead of me is correct that bullet length is more important than bullet weight in determining twist rates. Good Luck and Good Shooting

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:47:47 AM »

fr3db3ar - you need to stick with the 69 grain and lower bullets for a 1 - 9" twist. You will need a 1 - 8" twist, maybe even a 1 - 7" twist rate, for the 80 grain bullets in a 223.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** September 19, 2009, 06:22:48 AM »

Berger lists the required twist rate for their bullets, it will give you an idea of what to shoot in it.

Tim

http://www.bergerbullets.com/Berger%20Quick%20Reference%20Sheets%206-17-09.pdf

elsie · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2009, 05:29:20 AM »

Looks like a 1-12 is only for light bullets and if I want to shoot something for hunting like over 55 gr. then 1-12 isn't going to be very accurate and HR/NEF doesn't make anything but a 1-9 now but you probably aren't going to get one by ordering it because the distribs are going to send you their oldest stock first which is still 1-12 models. But 1-9 would be at least better for hunting weight bullets than a 1-12. Is that saying that the 1-9 would be a better all around twist in a standard Handi? So the general rule works....lighter-faster twist, heavier-slower twist.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2009, 05:45:05 AM »

The 1:12" will shoot the 63gr Sierra #1370 and Win 64gr PP good, both are short for their weight and have a good track record in the 1:12" Handi and perform well on deer in the .223, the 60gr Nosler partition also works, but I wouldn't worry about getting a 1:12" from a distributor now, the 1:9" has been available for quite a while, the only 1:12" that you might get is the Superlight as it was the last to be changed to 1:9, H&R hasn't made a 1:12" barrel since 2007.

Tim

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 20, 2009, 05:49:57 AM »

There is nothing like repeating good information

They have been making the 1 - 9" twist for a while now. The 223 is a popular chambering so I would think the old stock would be used up, with the exception of the maybe the Super Lite 223. I could be wrong on that of course. The Handi generally follows most "rules" as far as twist is concerned. The 357 Mag seemed to shoot very heavy bullets for a 18 3/4" twist rate and come to find out many of them are sub 16" twist.

grumps · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2009, 06:49:49 AM »

Don't know if thats true about the 1-12 all used up. I ordered a new one this past spring and got it in May thinking that I would get a new one in 1-9 but got a pretty old but new one thats 1-12 made in 2006 and it would do good on 55 gr bullets at all. So distributors still are shipping whatever old stock they have.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #11 on:** September 22, 2009, 07:06:01 PM »

Below is a list of Bullet Lengths of various .224 Caliber Bullets that either I have measured, the manufactures supplied the bullet lengths to me of friends have measured and provided the lengths to me.

.224" - 40gr. Speer Spire Point - .505"
.224" - 40gr. Sierra Hollow Point - .565"
.224" - 45gr. Hornady "Hornet" - .605"
.224" - 50gr. Speer TNT Hollow Point - .682"
.224" - 55gr. Winchester Pointed Soft Point - .693"
.224" - 52gr. Speer Flat Base Hollow Point - .698"
.224" - 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip - .703"
.224" - 55gr. Sierra Spitzer - .710"
.224" - 55gr. Sierra HPBT - .718"
.224" - 60gr. Nosler Partition - .775"
.224" - 50gr. Sierra BLITZKING - .780"
.224" - 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip - .788"
.224" - 64gr. Winchester Power Point - .798"
.224" - 50gr. Hornady V-MAX - .800"
.224" - 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip - .808"
.224" - 55gr. Hornady V-MAX - .813"
.224" - 65gr. Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail - .840"
.224" - 69gr. Sierra Matchking HPBT - .895"
.224" - 70gr. Berger VLD Match - .966"
.224" - 68gr. Hornady BTHP - .985"
.224" - 75gr. Hornady BTHP - 1.040"
.224" - 80gr. Nosler HPBT - 1.070"
.224" - 75gr. Swift Scirocco II - 1.085"
.224" - 75gr. Hornady A-MAX - 1.098"

While I do not have a NEF Handi Rifle in .223, I used to have one (I am quite sure it was a 1 in 12" Twist Barrel as it was prior to 2007) and it preferred the WinchesterUSA White Box 45gr. Hollow Points. Unfortunately I never did pull one of those rounds apart and measure the length of the bullet.

I currently have a 16" 1 in 9" Twist Bushmaster AR-15 .223. I have tried a few different bullets in it so far and it definately has a perference for 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips, generally putting 3 of them into a 1/2" to 5/8" group at 100 yards from the bench. I recently tried to work up a load with 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in this 1 in 9" Twist Bushmaster and the absolute best group I was able to come up with was 1".

As has been stated bullet length has more to do with what twist rate will stabalize a given bullet, provided proper velocity is obtained.

If you run the bullet lengths on the Greenhill Twist Rate Calaculator (which can be found at http://www.z-hat.com/twistrate.htm ) it uses below or above 2800 FPS for the cut off of velocity levels.

Larry

olsmokey · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:23:07 AM »

Hello everyone, great site,

a lot of good info here. Was doing research to see what bullets to use in my 223 handi's. One has 1-12 [slow twist] and the other 1-9 [fast twist]. Elsie's post says heavier bullets 1-9 twist and lighter bullets 1-12. Then at the end of post general rule "lighter bullets-faster twist-----heavier bullets-slower twist". I'm so confuuuused, or could this be a case of dislexia? thanks Dave

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:42:19 AM »

Definitely dyslexia.....the end of post general rule is backwards

tucsonkid · « **Reply #14 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:11:58 AM »

So how would you determine what handi rifle twist your rifle has? Can we find out through the serial#s??

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:14:34 AM »

No, see the FAQs and Help sticky, instructions on how to determine twist can be found below the twist rate list.

Tim

Default · « **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:36:42 PM »

All this intel is good , Only i have to be the munky in the wrench ... While on avarage these statements are the rule ... If you are willing to invest the time and money , You can get lucky ... I had a 87' manufacture date Mini 14 with the Mc Donalds soda straw size barrel with a confirmed 1 in 10 twist rate and with enough R&D I found a Black Hills remanufacture moly coated 75 gr load that would hold MOA and Sub MOA from time to time , at least for the first 3 rounds then the impacts would start to walk around on the paper..

My H&R bull barrel was a confirmed 1 in 9 and loved the Horanady TAP 75 gr load , Not only did it religiously print dime sized groups at 100 .. That load did excellent on game , But again i spent the time and money experimenting with those 223s to find what it liked in the realm of what i wanted the wepon to be capable of using ... This may not perform in yours like it did mine , That is just barrels being barrels.

So dont short change your 1 in 9 to being only a 55-69gr rifle, Play with if .. Yeah you'll be dissapointed a few times that i am sure of, But then again you might be able to spout off that old Hannibal ( A-team) quote of " How you like it when a plan comes together "

As of now i am experimenting with my 1 in 12 Ruger Target Grey bench rifle to see just how heavy i can go , So far 55gr is the heaviest at this point , Funnier yet my father-in-laws 1 in 14 loves that same 55gr load (55gr V-Max over 21.5 Reloder 7, 2.250 OAL in a rem. case with a cci primer) that damn near one holes all the time out of my Ruger .. It doesnt do quite as well but 1" at 100 for that 1 in 14 twist Savage double barrel predator isnt anything to sneeze at and he couldnt be happier.

Just a thought , Not tryin to confuse... Just letting you know there is always exceptions to the rule

Default

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2009, 02:56:02 PM »

Default....if you want a heavier bullet in the 1 in 12, try the Winchester 64 gr sp. It works for me. It's virtually the same length as the 55 Vmax.

tucsonkid · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:45:23 AM »

Does anyone know how to tell from the serial number if your rifle has 1-9 or 1-12 twist? My rifle is brand new so I would assume it be a 1-9?? What do you think? Thanks

Default · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:30:42 AM »

Tucson,

The only way to be sure brother is to check it with a cleaning rod , Measure off 9"s of the rod then mark the tape you placed around the rod with a line .. Place your rifle on its butt or in a cleaning stand .. Place a patch on the end of the rod so it fits tight in the barrel and slowly push the rod in , watching the line as it travels .. If you measured off 9" and the line comes back around to be facing you after it travels all the way in to the tape ... You have a 1 in 9 if it falls short you probably have the 1 in 12 ..

This is why people are saying that it is possible on a new gun , but unlikely that you can find a 1 in 12 now days..

Quote from: fr3db3ar on November 16, 2009, 02:56:02 PM

Default....if you want a heavier bullet in the 1 in 12, try the Winchester 64 gr sp. It works for me. It's virtually the same length as the 55 Vmax.

  Fred ,
   Thanks , I will have to give them a try ... I know that has to be one of the harder bullets to find available at midway , Probably due to it working so well ...
  Fred you have any load data concerning this round that might be helpful i.e. powder , OAL etc. ?

   Default

MSP Ret · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:34:35 AM »

if it was made in 2008 and on it should be a 1 in 9 for sure. My H&R/NEF .223's are all 1 in 12 and shoot 52 and 55 grain bullets into 100 yard groups you can cover with a dime, I'm happy with that wieght bullets and that accuracy for coyotes....<><....

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:43:48 AM »

Default, everybody should work up their own load...and all powders are different. I use H335 just because it's easily available at the place I buy my reloading supplies. I use 24.5 gr for the 55 Vmax and 25 gr for the Win 64. POI is virtually the same for both @ 100.

Default · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:30:23 AM »

Fred ,

Yup i agree about working up their own was just curious what powder you had good luck with , H335 comes up a number of times in the Sierra manuel as their most accurate powder for said projectile wt. Still havent been able to find it local to experiment with.

thanks,

Default

Cottonwood · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:55:54 AM »

Quote from: Default on November 16, 2009, 12:36:42 PM

My H&R bull barrel was a confirmed 1 in 9 and loved the Horanady TAP 75 gr load

This is good to know since my 24" Bull Barrel is in the mail on its way to me now.

tucsonkid · « **Reply #24 on:** November 18, 2009, 03:45:23 AM »

You can call H&R and they can tell you what twist your rifle is from the serial #. I called yesterday and mine was a 1 in 9 twist. Mine was just bought so I think the newer ones are 1 in 9.

RGH · « **Reply #25 on:** November 19, 2009, 07:15:06 AM »

I just purchased 10/2009 a brand new Handi heavy barrel in 223 from a large store here in Sacramento. I'm new on the forum and discovered, after the purchase, it was made in 2006. So they still have some older stock still hanging around. I started thinking it was a 1/12 twist, but after checking it's not. So I just bought a 2006 with a 1/9 twist. I have fired some factory 64 grain winchesters and two different hand-loads with 50 and 40 grain vmax's. It's shooting 3" groups with all loads so far. Nice looking gun, but so far I'm not pleased with its performance. I will try shooting it without the fore end as mentioned, but that can't make a big difference, can it? Anybody have some suggestions for starting point for OAL for 50 grain bullet? Thanks
Ron

olsmokey · « **Reply #26 on:** November 19, 2009, 03:09:53 PM »

After reading all your input,it seems that a 55gr. bullet is the breaking point between the 1-12 and 1-9 twist. So you should be able to shoot 55's in either one by varying the velocity. what do you think?

poncaguy · « **Reply #27 on:** November 28, 2009, 08:48:37 AM »

My custom built AR 15 has a 1x7 twist, shoots 50 on up MOA, wish my Handi was a 1x7 or 1x8..........

Skunk · « **Reply #28 on:** November 28, 2009, 08:58:11 AM »

My Remington has a 1 in 9 twist and works great up to 70 grain bullets (never tried anything heavier), but I'd like another .223 with a 1 in 7 or at least a 1 in 8 twist so I could shoot the big, heavy, bullets.

Jon in TN · « **Reply #29 on:** November 29, 2009, 09:49:14 AM »

I just checked my '05 model handi (SB2-223) and it's 1:9, so you never know till you check!