Author Topic: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?  (Read 1547 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« on: September 19, 2009, 12:16:58 PM »
Hi All,
   I'd read some time ago, in Europe there was a type of black powder with a reddish color made from straw charcoal...

Well, happened to spill some pasta under the burner of my stove... noticed it looked like charcoal when done... ground it up... "looks like charcoal, LOL"  Decided to char up some different types, Riccioli, Capaletti, Rotini.  Ground 'em all up. Am thinking, well technically straw is the leftovers from grain production, so why not the wheat? (For what it's worth, Rotini charred and ground up the best, LOL! Wonder what Rachel Ray would say? :D)

Of course it might make *terrible* charcoal. Will have to test it. Or even possibly plain old charred wheat flour, made say, at the same time as some dextrin.

Anyone know:

A) Does wheat make a decent charcoal for BP use?

B) Is there some way to test the quality of charcoal without making a batch of powder? (Why waste the materials if ya don't have to?)

I notice that this carbonous stuff (not sure if it's charcoal proper and not just flat out carbon) doesn't ignite even as well as sugar when tossed on a hot burner. That was interesting...

Anyway, I've read pure carbon makes horrible black powder, so thought I'd ask around, see if anyone has ever tried this.

(I'm sure somebody in history has, can't be a new idea. Possibly not even a fair or good idea or somebody would be writing about it?)


Offline coyotejoe

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2937
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2009, 02:06:15 PM »
I can't answer your question except to say that in all the centuries and all of the places that blackpowder has been made I suspect everything feasible has been tried and 99.9% was rejected.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2009, 02:46:56 PM »
I can't answer your question except to say that in all the centuries and all of the places that blackpowder has been made I suspect everything feasible has been tried and 99.9% was rejected.

Agreed, LOL!

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1027
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 06:10:05 AM »
Hmmm.  You might try burning the charred pasta and weighing the ash that is left behind.  Compare this to wood charcoal, and better yet, compare this to Alder charcoal.  Since Alder is widely accepted as a superior charcoal material for BP you could compare the qualities of wheat charcoal to that.

Things to measure without actually making bp:

Weight of ashes as a ratio to the weight of charcoal

Calories released per gram of charcoal.

Ignition temperature


Now, I don't know much about BP making, so it may be that these properties would be totally meaningless before mixing with KNO3 & Sulphur.  But if you noticed that they were all very similar to Alder charcoal - then maybe it would be worth a try.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 11:11:52 AM »
Hmmm.  You might try burning the charred pasta and weighing the ash that is left behind.  Compare this to wood charcoal, and better yet, compare this to Alder charcoal.  Since Alder is widely accepted as a superior charcoal material for BP you could compare the qualities of wheat charcoal to that.

Things to measure without actually making bp:

Weight of ashes as a ratio to the weight of charcoal

Calories released per gram of charcoal.

Ignition temperature


Now, I don't know much about BP making, so it may be that these properties would be totally meaningless before mixing with KNO3 & Sulphur.  But if you noticed that they were all very similar to Alder charcoal - then maybe it would be worth a try.

That's certainly a reasonable approach.

Having built a little stove top charcoal maker, I can make and test small batches of just about anything, LOL!

At this point I've put up samples of the pasta, Bounty Paper Towels (it's made from wood, right? :D) and bamboo.

All three behave slightly differently. The pasta, maybe because it has ferrous sulphate in it (iron enriched) makes the largest fastest flame when tossed on a burner. The paper based, when in sheet form acts like char cloth and leaves little to no residue, both the bamboo and paper tend to burn as tiny coals when powdered.

So oddly, the pasta, so far seems to have the most vigourous reaction in open air. 

At some point I hope to get a flintlock, and of course some KNO3 and finish up this experiment. Maybe someday, if things get better, an chronograph might be interesting. I noticed the other day in a catalog that they aren't all that expensive.


Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1027
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 04:28:07 AM »
Oh, there's a secret safety precaution to making bp.  If you've got a daughter who is infatuated with a boy that you're not particularly please about this may work just perfect.

The process is simple.  Instruct the potential future son-in-law on how to make bp.  Then stand 100 yards away and let him make a few pounds for ya.  8)
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 12:17:24 PM »
Oh, there's a secret safety precaution to making bp.  If you've got a daughter who is infatuated with a boy that you're not particularly please about this may work just perfect.

The process is simple.  Instruct the potential future son-in-law on how to make bp.  Then stand 100 yards away and let him make a few pounds for ya.  8)

LOL :D ;D ;D,,After you've loosened him up with a few beers,,and if it's gettin on dark,,give'im a coleman lantern!! :D
found elsewhere

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 10:10:52 PM »
Oh, there's a secret safety precaution to making bp.  If you've got a daughter who is infatuated with a boy that you're not particularly please about this may work just perfect.

The process is simple.  Instruct the potential future son-in-law on how to make bp.  Then stand 100 yards away and let him make a few pounds for ya.  8)

Sounds about right. Way less condemning than having to deal directly with said suitor, LOL!

Considering the inventor of Pyrodex was killed in the pursuit, there's no doubt it's an endeavor fraught with risks. Yet at the same time, things like Foxfire #5 and even some info over on Skylighter make it seem like folks successfully (not the same as "safely") make usable BP all the time.  ???

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 10:31:36 PM »
Here, check this out. This one makes me cringe... A little down the page they are breaking up pressed BP pucks with a meat tenderizer.

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=112#shell

And this is a newletter of a company devoted to pyrotechnics. Is BP really that safe to pound on? I always thought it would go off like that.

Anyway, here's some testing these folks did with different methods of home shop manufacture of BP for lifting purposes:

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=115#BP

Offline S.S.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2840
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 04:47:01 PM »
Dried Horse droppings make great carbon when charred.
And you thought your idea was wierd ;D
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline torpedoman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2574
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 04:56:22 PM »
anyone tried charcoal briquettes you know the kind you use in the barbie?
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 07:34:25 PM »
anyone tried charcoal briquettes you know the kind you use in the barbie?

The general web based consensus on that is that briquettes don't work well. Have seen some videos where a pyrotechnician made a test mortar and two powders. One with briquette charcoal the other with willow charcoal.

2 grams of briquette black powder... projectile went 3 feet (yes *three* feet)

2 grams of willow black powder... projectile went 200 feet (yes two *hundred* feet)

Haven't tried it myself yet. (Now way here in SoCal where I'm at to go out and fire off anything. Even the indoor ranges prohibit black powder, claiming the carbon gets in the air conditioning filters and causes fires.)

Anyway, assuming the above videos were legitimate, seems briquettes flatly suck. The usual reason given is that ash and chemicals put into the briquettes to make them long burning is the problem.

However, some test results I've seen (but can't verify) do tend to show that most any decent raw wood can make a sufficient charcoal, including things as diverse as white pine and balsa.

The other thing that seems to come up repeatedly on pyro sites about this is that fine granulation (usually stated as ball milling) makes a huge difference as well.

What led me to believe wheat flour or possibly charred pasta may work is that rye straw has been cited as an excellent charcoal base. Was thinking maybe grain itself may work.

But, since some testing seems to show that spruce/fir/white pine are acceptable, heck, a white pine 2x4 should make plenty of powder.

Charred some bamboo chopsticks I had around with my little charcoal maker on the kitchen stove yesterday, just because I had it around. Looks to me like small amounts of wood can easily be charred up in the kitchen if you wanted to. Probably better to do it outdoors if your vent hood doesn't vent to outdoors though. Also have a gas fireplace here. That may work pretty good to. Why waste all that good gas heat just to look at a fire? LOL! Might as well use those BTU's ;)

Anyway, bottom line. Most sources seem to say briquettes aren't very good. And, I was astounded at the difference in that test mentioned above.

YMMV

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 07:39:18 PM »
Dried Horse droppings make great carbon when charred.
And you thought your idea was wierd ;D

Ah well, my "idea" happened by accident, then I remembed about rye straw. So thought it might actually have some merit.

I've stored some charred up pasta in a spice bottle for future testing when I get maybe a flinter and then some KN03.

Since the underlying idea is to remove dependency on manufactured stuff, as much as possible, I'm wanting a mixture that a flintlock will digest. It doesn't have to be as strong, gram for gram as commercial, just as long as it is functional and at some reasonable mass, produces commercial-like velocities without excessive pressure or other unsafe characteristics.

In short, trying to do an updated version of the Foxfire 5 thing, but in a suburban/semi-urban setting for the moment, while learning what I can about the process.

Would patently love to have the space to set up shop and build a flintlock from scratch. The rifling machine seems like a seriously interesting challenge. But, the economy is biting my proverbial Kanye, so I may never get to it. :(

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2009, 06:12:25 AM »
Here, maybe this will help you on your way,,


http://www.everythingpyrotechnic.com/chemicals.htm
found elsewhere

Offline Bubber

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 205
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2009, 10:37:24 AM »
This is a topic I have read a great deal on. I do want to try my hand at making my own powder. I think it would be a blast to win a rondy shooting a homemade rifle, home cast balls, and stoked with home made powder. I have not tried it yet, one because of time, and two because, well I have some concerns that have not yet subsided with research. So I have no first hand knowlege on this as of yet, so this is strictly what I have read.

Charcoal briquettes have a fair amount of clay in them as a binder making them a poor charcoal for powder.

One guy has had fantastic results using dried lawn clippings as a base for charcoal.

The best still comes down to willow charcoal, however Goex uses a hardwood charcoal. So in theroy it would be possable to make a powder more energetic than Goex.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2009, 11:34:19 AM »
This is a topic I have read a great deal on. I do want to try my hand at making my own powder. I think it would be a blast to win a rondy shooting a homemade rifle, home cast balls, and stoked with home made powder. I have not tried it yet, one because of time, and two because, well I have some concerns that have not yet subsided with research. So I have no first hand knowlege on this as of yet, so this is strictly what I have read.

Charcoal briquettes have a fair amount of clay in them as a binder making them a poor charcoal for powder.

One guy has had fantastic results using dried lawn clippings as a base for charcoal.

The best still comes down to willow charcoal, however Goex uses a hardwood charcoal. So in theroy it would be possable to make a powder more energetic than Goex.

Yes, there's one website out there that I recall that graphed the velocities of various homemade black powders with various charcoals. That author was a chemical engineer and a black powder fan. His results showed that most woods would do better than Goex, but not quite up to Swiss, though willow did pretty much match up with swiss. He opined, "Can't figure out why modern manufacturers can't make a good powder?" I believe he was referring to Goex. Of course he was swiss himself, so maybe a little provincialness, LOL!

Anyway, I've read rye straw was a great charcoal base. Hence the reason I was somewhat curious about wheat. Just happened to have some pasta end up under a burner and char, and the light went off. Will have to test it at some point. But based on the aforementioned engineer's testing, he concluded fir/spruce/white pine (not yellow pine) work just fine.

So with that, well, heck a 2x4 would probably suffice for several pounds of powder. So that seems like a good starting point to me.

Most testing I've read about also seems to indicate that fineness of grind is crucial. Most leaning towards ball milling. For me personally, I was looking for a "no special tools, and no electricity" method. Essentially a safe manual process that would make good powder. Want to not have to rely on anything "special".

Unfortunately, potassium nitrate is somewhat "special". The traditional nitre bed method takes too long, and is well, to urine and feces-centric for me, LOL!

So I see having to be dependant on some source of that and sulphur at the moment. Problem being that flinters don't like the non-sulphur powders much. (Figuring a flinter removed the dependency on manufactured caps. Just not willing to play with priming compounds. Strike me as to touchy and dangerous to fuss with.)

But yeah, I'm with you. Would be interesting to bootstrap an entire flintlock, powder and bullets from the ground up.

Bullet molds seem like an interesting challenge. Specifically how to bore a round ball mold or moulds with grease grooves. Again, without special equipment like milling machines or lathes.

Was thinking one could do a form of Minie and/or hollow point by drilling a block, then using something along the lines of a C-clamp to swage lead into it. Heck, I guess, if you really wanted to go through the process, one could sand cast slugs or slugs to be swaged into a DIY mold.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Need to get into a situation with some serious workspace to get started, LOL!

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 09:02:44 AM »
Ya know, this whole thread is rank with modern day "survivalist" type ramblings. Your way overthinking the entire thing.
400 years ago, heck even 500 (what rhymes with 1492 ?) man has had basic iron tools and the knowledge to use them. they brought with them "gunpowder" by the barrels full, till they found sulpher here stateside. Then they started buying selling and trading for manufactured powder,,or they killed for and stole it! Most did not sit in the back shed and try to brew powder.
I personally know people whom are making traditional firearms,,lock, stock and barrel today, over the top of wood fired forges. Fired clay and Cuddle bone or brass ball molds? little trouble.
Why not just buy sulpher and kn03 and store it?
 If, IF,,things where to somehow fall apart. Your going to be in deep doodoo in socal. It will/would be decades before current supplies of modern ammo run out, and food compition will take care of most folks long before that.
Anyone that's going to make it,,will be able to find and harvest their foods, and defend themselves quietly, ya know? So as to not draw attention?
Your best off to move away from there,,get to know some farmers really well,,maybe do some labor for them?
found elsewhere

Offline Bubber

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 205
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 11:13:30 AM »
[

How dare you bring such a line of logic into this post and spoil our fun. With the economy the way it is some people need things to occupy their mind so they don't go crazy. I for one am recovering from having a doctor beat the crap out of my upper body in the name of fixing my broken nose and due to pain killers can't do much else than sleep and think. Sitting on the can isn't even happening for me. Why would you try to take this escape away from me/us with logic? ;D

flmason, I can see your point. My concern would be that the simpler the means, the less consistancy you may have. I look at the whole concept as yet another challenge for me. To make as best a product as I can. However I am intriuged by your insights and look forward to any and all findings.

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2009, 01:20:36 PM »
 ::) Oop's sorry, :-[  :-[

How bout' a good movie like "Dances with wolves", (Directors cut) or sumpthin?
found elsewhere

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2009, 05:44:36 PM »
Ya know, this whole thread is rank with modern day "survivalist" type ramblings. Your way overthinking the entire thing.
400 years ago, heck even 500 (what rhymes with 1492 ?) man has had basic iron tools and the knowledge to use them. they brought with them "gunpowder" by the barrels full, till they found sulpher here stateside. Then they started buying selling and trading for manufactured powder,,or they killed for and stole it! Most did not sit in the back shed and try to brew powder.
I personally know people whom are making traditional firearms,,lock, stock and barrel today, over the top of wood fired forges. Fired clay and Cuddle bone or brass ball molds? little trouble.
Why not just buy sulpher and kn03 and store it?
 If, IF,,things where to somehow fall apart. Your going to be in deep doodoo in socal. It will/would be decades before current supplies of modern ammo run out, and food compition will take care of most folks long before that.
Anyone that's going to make it,,will be able to find and harvest their foods, and defend themselves quietly, ya know? So as to not draw attention?
Your best off to move away from there,,get to know some farmers really well,,maybe do some labor for them?

Yes, there are some survivalist underpinnings. No doubt.

But more along the lines of... the current economy is kicking my tail and I may end up living rather poorly, LOL! Not the end of the world stuff. If society collapses, the militaries of the world will dominate. They have the resources, the training and a command structure already in place. I do not feel I'd be able to outdo all that with some cache of M-16's, homebrew C-4, or any of that let alone some flintlocks and/or percussion guns, LOL!

Beyond that, it's just driven by personal curiousity. As in "how the heck is it done anyway?" In some of my other hobbies I've pursued that sort of thing as well. For example, I've built musical instruments from scratch. I've also researched bow making, cordage making and even spinning (as in yarn and thread). For whatever reasons, I enjoy fabricating stuff. Where I wealthier, and we were back in the day, I could have seen being a manufacturer of sextants and watches, etc.

But, anyway, no real militia leanings or any of that really, but I just figure the powers that be don't want a true collapse. And if one were to occur, there's little chance I'm going to survive it anyway.

A more likely occurance is that I'll end up with a choice. Live in skid row like others who end up homeless, or try to survive further away form the mess and crime that cities are. So's learning old time and/or Appalachian like skills strikes me as just good to know stuff. :)

But yes, at present it's a bit of intellectual exercise (some might say mastrubation, except that I've actually made up some charcoal and now know more about how it works out than I started) but a knowledge pursuit none-the-less.

Unfortunately, there is much in my life that is in the "for someday" category. Much to my chagrin.

What does give me peace though, is settling an issue. For example... if I need to do "X", have I decided how I'm going to do it? If so then at least the question is settled.

At this juncture I've tried actually making some charcoal, so now I have some feel for it and the little things related to it. For example, "How long does it have to bake?", "How much of a pain in the rear is it to granulate it?", etc.

Two thoughts.  1) Yes, I'm reinventing the wheel a bit, 2) I've got some 777 on the shelf as insurance anyway, LOL! :D

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2009, 05:47:38 PM »
[

How dare you bring such a line of logic into this post and spoil our fun. With the economy the way it is some people need things to occupy their mind so they don't go crazy. I for one am recovering from having a doctor beat the crap out of my upper body in the name of fixing my broken nose and due to pain killers can't do much else than sleep and think. Sitting on the can isn't even happening for me. Why would you try to take this escape away from me/us with logic? ;D

flmason, I can see your point. My concern would be that the simpler the means, the less consistancy you may have. I look at the whole concept as yet another challenge for me. To make as best a product as I can. However I am intriuged by your insights and look forward to any and all findings.

Thanks for the support, LOL!

Well, I've created a little charcoal broiler out of some tuna cans for use on my stove. Charred up a few ounces of different common materials and sealed it up in some empty spice jars. Probably won't get around to making any powder in this situation. To in close suburbia and in SoCal no less, to actually test anything anywhere nearby.

But... I have learned about charcoal making in general, done a little of it, and now know more than when I started. All good stuff. :)

I'm not sure that simplistic methods have to yield variable results. Consider using a Lee Loader or Lap Press with cartridges vrs. a progressive loader. The Lap Press is slower, less sophisticated, but with care should yield finished ammo that's on par with the progressive press. An argument could be made that simple methods, carefully applied might even yield superior results over mass production methods. That would almost seem to be the definition of how "custom" and "one off" designs are done.


Offline arcticap

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 07:49:22 PM »
When I asked a similar question about rye straw powder, I received this answer from a known black powder expert named Monk Monk on another site:

Quote

arcticap,

The question of "substitute" or "synthetic" is meaningless.  This term "synthetic" has only recently come into use.

In a previous post you mentioned Western Powder's Blackhorn 209.  I took some apart.  It is basically a smokeless powders with about 17% of something else added in to tone it down and kill the normal pressure responsive burn rate seen in smokeless powders.  The IMR White Hots may also be just another type of smokeless.  It is suspected that this is a rehash of the old du Pont bulk smokeless powder.  For a number of years Hodgdon Powder had tried to find a source for something akin to the old bulk smokeless that had been made by du Pont.  When Hodgdon acquired the IMR production facility this gave them access to all of the powders du Pont ever made and the ability to make them themselves.

Neither Blackhorn 209 nor the White Hots have even a remote relationship to the Holy Black Powder.


If one were to replace normal charcoal with "unburnt rye straw" in a black powder formulation it would not work very well at all.  If unburnt rye straw were used to replace a portion of the charcoal in a normal black popwder it would only serve to slow it down.

Noble & Abel, in England in the 1860's tested some Spanish black powder that had been made with charred hemp stems.  The hemp stems being cheap waste from rope-making operations.  This hemp stem charcoal black powder was a good bit faster than C&H sporting powder. (You would not want to shoot this powder on a range frequented by law enforcement officers!!!)

Conversely,  C&H and at least one American powder company had used charred peas to sold [slow] down very fast burning sporting powders which could then be used in bp cartridge loadings with big heavy bullets.  The pea char slowed the powder down while retaining the moist-burning property of the powder and the reduced fouling with sporting powders.  The straight sporting powders created high pressures in a cartridge rifle which degraded accuracy and yielded hard fouling.

What we call "brown powder" was made with charred cocoa husks that were a waste by-product of the chocolate industry.  Used in cannon powders were fast and hot burning powders were not desired.  Trouble with the brown powder was that it was overly sensitive to frictional ignition.  Simply shaking it in a cloth bag would set it off.  It actually saw very little use in the military.  Once the military understood just how dangerous it was they ordered all stocks of it to be destroyed.


To elaborate a bit on the rye straw thing.

Let's take alder charcoal as an example.
In a sporting burn rate powder you would char the alder to a fixed carbon content of around 65%.  If you "under-burn" it to a lower fixed carbon content the burn rate of the finished powder is a good bit slower than that made with the 65% fixed carbon char.
Then as to char to a higher fixed carbon content there is a little slowing of the charcoal's burn rate.  A fixed carbon content of 70 to 75% is considered ideal in a rifle burn rate powder.  About 80% in a musket burn rate powder.  Once you hit about 85% fixed carbon content the burn rate starts to take a big dive.  To slow down cannon powders and make them burn cooler it was not unusual to char to a 90 to 95% fixed carbon content.

If you were to plot a graph of the fixed carbon content versus burn rates you get a classic bell curve graph.

I have looked at late 19th century sporting type powder out of an old Ely .295 Rook loading.  Large powder grains with a red-brown color.  Once separated from the sulfur the charcoal was brick-red in color.  In this case they charred the wood for a very long time at a low temperature.  A temperature below 280 to 290 C.

Along another line here.
We see several versions of the ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate powder.  Then we had GOEX's fruit sugar based Clear Shot powder.

Plants make ascorbic acid by modifying the basic sugar molecule.  Plant cellulose is said to be a "high-polymer" of sugar.  In plant cellulose you have sugar molecules as the basic unit of structure joined together in long "chains".  There is a great deal of variation in the number of sugar molecules forming these chains.  In plant cellulose we see the sugar molecules forming crystalline structures.  In starches the masses are not crystalline.
Not that this means anything as far as the use of the term substitute goes.  Just something of technical interest.


Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Wheat Based Charcoal, Charcoal Testing?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2009, 05:21:14 PM »
That's interesting. So it would seem a key question might be, "How do you accurately adjust the carbon content?"

It's one thing to know a certain range of carbon has a given effect, but if you can't make the charcoal to that spec reliably, you're stuck with a hit or miss proposition.

I've seen some writing that suggests the carbon content is mostly determined by charring temp. with about 390C being best, but that some of the manufacturers "char to death" their charcoal at 400C+ for extended periods.

Interesting stuff. I guess, if one wanted to do this scientifically, some sort of high temp thermometer seems a requirement, as well as an adjustable cooking method.

What might be of high value to those of us considering improvised, simplified or just plain primitive condition manufacture, is a way a process with lots of leeway, yet a good charcoal results.

Easy, good results, has lots of value under such constraints.

Which is what my research is really all about. "What's the easiest way to make a hunting and/or defense grade powder?" as well as, "What are the alternatives?" E.g things like sulphurless, improvised charcoal materials, etc. I.e. can I make something suitable, easily under the widest range of conditions?

After all, if you just wanted to compete with Swiss, just go write a business plan, find some investment bankers and start a powder factory. ;)

All joking aside, thanks for the great information. Sounds like rye straw is something to avoid, for safety reasons at the very least.